Subscriber Discussion

Uniview Will Surpass Dahua/Hikvision On Non-China Sales Soon

CR
Chad Rohde
Dec 30, 2017

So if Hikvision is content to dominate China, I suspect they will continue to do so. After all, an authoritarian government as owner helps significantly.

However, Hikvision knows they are not 'dominating' the rest of the world and certainly not North America, outside of the low end of the market.

This is the Chinese news I like to hear and agree with. It would be nice to have some US companies that design, manufacture and sell with a "Made in USA" sticker.  And only available to buy through qualified distributors at a slightly higher price than DaHik. But as far as I know there isn't. And we definitely didn't want to sell Dahua or Hik. But Uniview was a perfect fit 

I think they will surpass DaHik on non-China sales soon. Uniview sees the mistakes of DaHik and so far are doing a good job not following in the their footsteps. They may have a smaller selection, but I consider that a benefit and shows they are more focused on quality not quantity. Same as their relationships with distributors. They are relatively small and unheard of in the US compared to DaHik, but they are building a good foundation worldwide that will pay off in the long run.

And my opinion is obviously biased, but even if we didn't sell Uniview product, I would still vote them as a top contender. They have the home field advantage manufacturing in China, and have the other visiting Chinese teams getting booed and heckled off the playing field.

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: I Dont Really See Hikvision Competing With Anyone. They Are So Far Ahead Of Everyone Else.

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 30, 2017
IPVM

Uniview sees the mistakes of DaHik and so far are doing a good job not following in the their footsteps.

I agree that Uniview is not following in Dahua and Hikvision's footsteps. However, the challenges for Uniview include:

(1) No to minimal in-country employees. It's hard to scale unless you have your own legion of regional sales people, sales engineers, marketing, etc. Without that, it's hard to get and keep attention from most dealers.

(2) Uniview's selection of many small distributors over nationals will make it hard to scale. Essentially every camera manufacturer sells through ADI and/or Tri-Ed since that's where most surveillance camera customers in NA buy from. The only exceptions are companies with deep local staffs (like Avigilon) or those who are satisfied with being niche players.

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 05, 2018

I think you give Ubiquiti positive reviews. They are obviously larger in the US, but kinda similar strategy?

JH
John Honovich
Jan 05, 2018
IPVM

Ubiquiti is relatively small in video surveillance and, to the extent that Ubiquiti sells in video surveillance, it is primarily as an outgrowth of their large and strong wireless networking business.

Ubiquiti is not a major player in video surveillance today and I don't see that changing unless they significantly shift their strategy / approach to video surveillance.

In Uniview's defense, btw, they have a much broader / deeper surveillance portfolio than Ubiquiti. They just have far less name recognition and customer base (via wireless sales) than Ubiquiti has in North America.

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 05, 2018

I meant their sales strategy in general. Not their camera division.

I remember reading somewhere and know first hand that they don't have much of a sales team, and rely more on their distributors to sell and support. Along with public forum. 

JH
John Honovich
Jan 05, 2018
IPVM

Yes, their sales strategy in terms of no field sales or support in North America is the same. I am emphasizing that Ubiquiti's advantage is that they have a large dealer base on the wireless networking side and, to the extent that Ubiquiti has sold video surveillance, it has been primarily people who already buy Ubiquiti networking products.

Uniview, by contrast, does not have an existing customer base to leverage in the same way in NA.

MM
Michael Miller
Dec 30, 2017

No, but with Hanwha OEMing NX Witness they are going to do some real damage this year.  Low-cost cameras, high-end cameras, HD analog DVRs all integrated with an easy to use intuitive VMS solution.   Something Hikvision, Dahua and Uniview don't have 

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U
Undisclosed #1
Dec 30, 2017
IPVMU Certified

No, but with Hanwha OEMing NX Witness they are going to do some real damage this year.

Especially to DW...

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JC
John Collings
Dec 31, 2017
MEMOREYES

We use PTZs mostly.

After a year of testing they get my meager vote. Built well, fast accurate focus and their starlight makes the Sony sensors shine (all puns intended)

Rex Ding is a reasonable guy to deal with too

 

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Jan 03, 2018

An American VC used have a large portion of ownership on Uniview.  There has been some changes in ownership in the recent years, and now it is ended up as a subsidiary of Hangzhou Jiaozhi Technology Co., Ltd..  So Uniview is now pure Chinese.  The company has been trying to go public in the past a few years, and it will go public when the time is right.  The company's behavior in sales can be changed at around the time of IPO, when the pressure for increasing the top line gets very high.  Especially showing strong performance in the US market would help its stock valuation, the same reason that Dahua and HIKvision are operating their US subsidiaries even though not very profitable.  It will be interesting to watch Uniview will be able to stay away from joining the race to the bottom or other typical strategies/behaviors that Dahik employs.  

One other point is that Uniview currently does not have analog products.  One of the reasons of Dahik's success in the world market is high demand in analog products in less developed countries.  Except for Western Europe, North America, and a few other countries, analog products still prevails.  This might limit Uniview's non-China sales growth.

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JH
John Honovich
Jan 03, 2018
IPVM

#2, good comments. Related: Bain Sells Off Uniview

interesting to watch Uniview will be able to stay away from joining the race to the bottom or other typical strategies/behaviors that Dahik employs.

From what I have seen, Uniview prices tend to similar to Dahua and Hikvision. What is most glaringly different is the lack of sales and marketing spend, which is quite heavy for Dahua and Hikvision.

Btw, lol at 'Dahik' vs 'Hikua' though I suppose the former is better for Dahua!

U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 03, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Btw, lol at 'Dahik' vs 'Hikua' though I suppose the former is better for Dahua!

Expect to see a new topic:

“Looking for information on where to buy Dahik or Hikua.”

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 05, 2018

Being from Texas, Dahik always sounded better to me. Might be wrong order, but won't matter once Uniview surpasses both of them. :)

U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 05, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Gotcha, but it doesn’t really matter even now, since they are all really just divisions of the same controlling/totalitarian entity, no?

CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 10, 2018

I hope not quite the same. 

But what other made in the USA options are there? My second sentence in the post is why it doesn't matter.

U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 10, 2018
IPVMU Certified

But what other made in the USA options are there?

Avigilon?

CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 10, 2018

I left out similar pricing. It was in my original post though.

Are all of their cameras manufactured in North America? And how much for the lower end models?

CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 10, 2018

From what I have seen, Uniview prices tend to similar to Dahua and Hikvision. What is most glaringly different is the lack of sales and marketing spend, which is quite heavy for Dahua and Hikvision.

Not sure if this was a pro Uniview statement, but I see it as a positive point. If they have been growing this fast without the heavy sales and marketing then great!

JH
John Honovich
Jan 12, 2018
IPVM

That was not meant to be pro or anti Uniview, it was meant to be an insider's observation of player's actions.

The upside of Uniview's current approach is that if or when Dahua or Hikvision stop their willingness to loss / subsidize / 'invest' in Western sales and marketing, Uniview could get a bump / increase in market share.

The downside of Uniview's current approach is as long as Dahua and Hikvision's current sales and marketing spend continues, Uniview has no practical shot at catching Dahua and Hikvision, given the power of even inefficient application of vast sales and marketing sums.

To give you a sense, Hikvision's consumer division Ezviz had a big booth at CES with 15+ local employees staffing it. So Hikvision is spending vastly more just on their consumer focused business than Uniview is spending entirely on North America.

JC
John Collings
Jan 04, 2018
MEMOREYES

Of course it was Bain. SE Asia fund. --- As for analog ... I suggest you're missing the point.

... John, This all won't matter when cameras know what to look at ... all by them selves.

The goal isn't more cameras. The goal is to provide socially acceptable deterrence, and lacking that, actionable evidence, easily obtained.

 

CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 05, 2018

One other point is that Uniview currently does not have analog products. One of the reasons of Dahik's success in the world market is high demand in analog products in less developed countries. Except for Western Europe, North America, and a few other countries, analog products still prevails. This might limit Uniview's non-China sales growth.

At this point I don't think it's worth trying to add analog and I hope they don't. All IP is one of my favorite qualities of Uniview. 

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Jan 10, 2018

You are missing my point.  Analog products take up a very large portion of Dahik's worldwide sales. Uniview not having analog products is a huge handicap in growing worldwide sales especially in less-developed countries. Uniview might (or not) be able to surpass Dahik's non-China sales, but it will take more time without analog products.

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 10, 2018

I didn't miss it, I just didn't directly address it. I agree with your statement, but since it doesn't help Uniview in the debate, I went for a diversion. 

But I do forget about the analog market and don't really know the size of it outside of the US. More time will tell. 

I wonder what will happen to Uniview when they surpass Dahik in non-china sales? (attn:Mr. H)

It's unfortunate that 3rd overall is the best they can hope for. I guess that would be 1st place for independent or no government ownership worldwide manufacturers?

U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 03, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Uniview VP Ximen Yan says:

We have certainly grown fast – our revenues have grown seven times and our staff numbers have increased 4 times since we were founded in 2011 - our goal by the end of the year is to increase R&D team numbers to 1600, which will make us number 3 in R&D globally. The cost of R&D is lower in China and R&D is important for our future success in the CCTV market – every year there are major advances in technology and we must keep up. The speed of change in the market is so rapid that after 3 years the latest technology has been superseded. Certainly, within 3 years, we plan to be number 3 globally in terms of CCTV manufacturers. It will be a challenge, but we think we can do it.

 

JH
John Honovich
Jan 03, 2018
IPVM

#1, good find with that interview. 

It's fascinating how these Chinese manufacturers are so fixated on R&D headcount. You don't hear or see them as focused on experience / expertise, which is typically a bigger issue / factor in engineering effectiveness.

Btw, another choice quote from that interview:

Uniview's origins as a network company mean it has many inherent advantages when it comes to cyber security. In terms of software architecture and code level, we have a unique consideration.

Evidently not: Uniview Recorder Backdoor Examined

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 05, 2018

Their "unique consideration" was acknowledging the problem, providing a solution to fix the problem, and how they plan on preventing future problems. Then clearly communicating this to the public.

That's my positive interpretation of "unique consideration".

U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 05, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Their "unique consideration" was acknowledging the problem, providing a solution to fix the problem, and how they plan on preventing future problems. Then clearly communicating this to the public.

That's my positive interpretation of "unique consideration".

Where do you get that from? It seems obvious that they are saying “we started in networking, so we know what we are doing.” 

Why invent a hidden meaning?

JH
John Honovich
Jan 05, 2018
IPVM

Why invent a hidden meaning?

He's a Uniview distributor :)

The interview was published on 10/25, our coverage of their recorder backdoor came out of 10/20 so it's not clear if they knew about this when they did the interview (i.e., not sure when the interview was actually done since usually interviews are done sometime before publication)

CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 06, 2018

In terms of software architecture and code level, we have a unique consideration.

Evidently not: Uniview Recorder Backdoor Examined

Well "Unique consideration" doesn't sound like proper English but grammar never was my strong point. So I was trying to put a positive spin on the interpretation that meant Uniview is unique in the way it handles John's backdoor exam. Unique compared to Hik because Uniview acknowledged the problem, provided a solution to fix the problem, and how they plan on preventing future problems. Then clearly communicated this to their customers and media (IPVM) in a professional manner.

Why invent a hidden meaning?

Why are you hidden behind Undisclosed#1? I don't know, just like I don't know the meaning to "Unique Consideration". Am I not entitled to my opinion. I didn't join IPVM to get a psychiatric evaluation and take grammar lessons. :)

 

(Had to edit this post twice for grammar mistakes, sorry for the others I probably missed)

U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 06, 2018
IPVMU Certified

So I was trying to put a positive spin on the interpretation that meant Uniview is unique in the way it handles John's backdoor exam.

I see that.  

But looking at it again

Uniview's origins as a network company mean it has many inherent advantages when it comes to cyber security. In terms of software architecture and code level, we have a unique consideration.

do you really think that Yan used “unique consideration” to mean

...acknowledging the problem, providing a solution to fix the problem, and how they plan on preventing future problems. Then clearly communicating this to the public.

C’mon.

 

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 10, 2018

No I didn't, I need to learn my emoticons I guess. Or probably better off not posting any joking/sarcastic remarks causing these semi off topic posts.

I am actually getting pretty good at interpreting the Chinenglish. Even helped Uniview with some of their marketing material in the past. Nothing major. Just made it easier for us country folk to read.

This is what I thought it meant in my own words and how I would have written it. No sarcasm.

Uniview is unique when it comes to software architecture and code level design. Their origins as a network communications company give them many inherent advantages dealing with cyber security.

Bring on the sucker punches. :)

TC
Trisha (Chris' wife) Dearing
Jan 06, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Why are you hidden behind Undisclosed#1?

For your benefit.

It allows you to not take things as personally and to dismiss criticisms easier because they are anonymous.

 

 

 

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 10, 2018

Why are you hidden behind Undisclosed#1?

For your benefit.

It allows you to not take things as personally and to dismiss criticisms easier because they are anonymous.

 

Feels more like a sucker punch from the drunk coward hiding in the crowd. But that's just me. :)

U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 10, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Feels more like a sucker punch from the drunk coward...

Yes, I would imagine sometimes it might.

But since you yourself are not a anonymous drunken coward, you get the moral high ground;

This feeling of superiority dulls the incoming punch as well as allows you to retaliate with righteous and guiltless abandonment.

Your Welcome ;)

 

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 10, 2018

The mediating happy drunk in the crowd. :) Your comments are always appreciated and welcomed. 

U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 03, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Uniview Will Surpass Dahua/Hikvision On Non-China Sales Soon

Worldeyecam thinks they already have, even in China:(*spoiler alert* - they’re not)

Uniview Bigger Than Hikvision And Dahua In China?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Jan 04, 2018

Yea right......what year was it when Hikvision was NOT # 1 in world-wide sales? Wasn't that

2011? 

Now you think Uniview will be # 1. They are not even close to competing especially in the US market. You need to read some (and that is very few I will admit) of the positive sentences contained in JH articles. Although he is 110% a Hik hater even he does not deny they have a brutal representation in the US and are very well entrenched in many local markets. I would not bet on Uniview if a dog jumped bit me on the ass and spit out 100 dollar bills......

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JH
John Honovich
Jan 04, 2018
IPVM

they have a brutal representation in the US

What does 'a brutal representation' mean? I cannot 'deny' or 'admit' a phrase that I do not even understand in English.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Jan 04, 2018

Brutal in this context was used in referencing a group (meaning NA Hikvision employees that are dedicated, professional , happy and have really no time for commenting on frivolous reports). Sure there will always be someone somewhere with a AX to grind. But the rise to the position they have in relatively short time frame is a tall order, engineered by a smart man, and the train is still rollin... I do not need information on cyber issues, China as a country, people that have quit and are pissed off, Linkedin miss matches, etc etc etc.

JC
John Collings
Jan 04, 2018
MEMOREYES

Well #3, sounds like you don't put up with any #2, but, sounds like you're rather #1'd off. Wonder why....

CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 05, 2018

Not sure how long you have been Hik integrator, but I'm guessing a lot longer than we have been a Uniview distributor. So you see the past domination and growth and have come to just expect the same going forward. But since I just recently made the Uniview decision and didn't really keep up with sales or ranks, I see things in a different light. 

Basically, Hik is just getting too much bad PR. And not just from IPVM or even WSJ. Bad PR in general like undercutting their largest distributor in Europe(Polland??) a while back. Bad PR in general like letting IPVM get their feathers ruffled and have to respond with blog posts of their own. Lack of professionalism is what I see. But their strong product line and low prices have carried them so far. Unfortunatly they had to keep dropping their prices. Maybe they can still be profitable at dirt prices, but they are stuck at the bottom now. 

Dahua is making cars now. May not mean anything. But just seems like they are not quite as focused. And they are in the same boat as Hik with all the oems and bunk firmwares floating around bricking cameras. 

So the outcome is inevitable if DaHik continue on current path. It may not be Univew but they are well positioned. They are similar on price and performance without all the negatives. I would rather take a gamble on a smaller company on the way up then try to catch a falling knife in DaHik.

Avatar
Sean Cottrell
Jan 04, 2018

Uniview are also pushing hard in the south east asian markets they are running a promo starting today giving away cars computers phones etc for all sales in the next three months,

UNV always has stock the story i get from Hikvision & Dahua is awaiting the factory for any order over 200 cameras its an issue for them 6-12 weeks. 

Only issue is Uniview is an unknown brand i did a shootout for a project last week UNV vs Dahua,  Clear winner was UNV but the client decided on Dahua as this was a brand they had used previously.   

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 05, 2018

Making a technology change is scary for any client. As long as you aren't getting Uniview clients requesting DaHik, eventually the tides will turn.  

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