I've been looking for cloud based solutions as an add-on to some of my customers sites. Many are asking for 30 day storage, some as many as 90 or 180 days of storage on the cloud. They would also prefer continuous recording, not just motion based. They are looking for a "true cloud" (their words not mine) solution where they don't want any appliance or local on site device. Just the cameras streaming directly to a cloud based storage. My company has dipped our toe in the water on this in the past, but couldn't find our prices to be competitive, without having thousands of channels with a storage/bandwidth provider. I know Axis is offering their "Guardian" Solution but that looks to be expensive as well. Does anyone know of a solution and what a "competitive" price for this? Have people found the Axis solution to be price competitive?
"True Cloud" Based Solution - No Appliance
To avoid having any on-site "appliance" you're then mostly looking at solutions like Meraki or Verkada which have on-camera SSD storage, or something like Genetec Stratocast (which can utilize SD card storage for local/backup retention) or Axis Guardian as you mentioned.
None of these solutions are mass-market enough to not be considered "expensive", especially if the customer requires continuous recording. Also, as our report from today shows, very few of these systems are sold by integrators, so positive responses to your questions may be limited.
What is the benefit of "true cloud" based recording? It makes little sense when you look at the pros and cons (today at least).
Record locally (either on camera SSD, better than SD card, or with appliance) and manage via the cloud (event or fault push notification, view/search/retrieve, auto software updates, global user management, etc)
The need for persistent, highly reliable camera to storage connections is the most important component of having evidence when you need it. Why do something inferior for more money in addition to the fact that there are a multitude more things that can go wrong.
Particularly in larger multi-site environments, system management, upgrades and overall system continuity is where "the cloud" offers potential windfall of benefits (dependent on software capabilities). Any system administrator will say the thing they hate most is a whole bunch of servers out in the field that need to be managed one at a time (updates, patches, users, etc). Add to that getting the right information (live events, stored evidence, system faults) to the right people at the right time via the potential seamlessness of cloud connectivity and you have the best of both worlds.
There are obviously exceptions to any comment like this but generally these are pretty substantial points IMHO.
Thanks for your response, to answer your questions though:
Record locally (either on camera SSD, better than SD card, or with appliance) and manage via the cloud (event or fault push notification, view/search/retrieve, auto software updates, global user management, etc)
They've been burned in the past with NAS/Appliances (and even DVR's) being unplugged or crashing/corrupting at inopportune times. These cameras, 1 or 2 per site, multi-site are a backup in critical areas where they want nothing onsite to be tampered with, either purposefully or accidently.
The need for persistent, highly reliable camera to storage connections is the most important component of having evidence when you need it. Why do something inferior for more money in addition to the fact that there are a multitude more things that can go wrong.
Agreed, (for the most part) their network, and network backup is one of their strongest points. With a "4, 9's" reliability and uptime, their bandwidth and connections aren't a concern though. I don't see cloud only as an inferior point, if you have the bandwidth and reliability that most of my customers have.
And to your last point, this is exactly the customers footprint, 1-2 cameras, 100's of sites needed. Managing on-site devices for a "back-up" camera is exactly what they're trying to avoid.
They've been burned in the past with NAS/Appliances (and even DVR's) being unplugged or crashing/corrupting at inopportune times.
If you can prevent a camera from being unplugged, you can prevent an NVR appliance from being unplugged.
4 9's of uptime says nothing about bandwidth, but if they have the bandwidth and uptime to truly do a "pure cloud" approach, they could just host an NVR in a data center somewhere and stream their on-site cameras to that. There are plenty of VMS/NVR companies that have robust platforms, high uptimes, redundant recording, etc. The total cost of ownership would likely be much lower over time, and they'd get a more robust UI/UX than any current generation "pure cloud" option.
To me, it sounds like your customer is being unreasonably finicky and not understanding the available options on the market that are mid or higher-end, and how to setup on-site equipment to make it reasonably tamper-proof. Thousands, probably even millions, even those in challenging environments, manage to operate just find with on-site recording and "appliances". They may be trying to fix some other operational deficiency through a cloud-based approach, but I would be skeptical it would solve the problem the way they think it would.
Thanks for your feedback.
If you can prevent a camera from being unplugged, you can prevent an NVR appliance from being unplugged.
I agree, the instances where they've had the NAS drives unplugged was the janitor looking for an open plug...not kidding. Same janitor after being reprimanded about unplugging the NAS drive, unplugged the DVR after. While I agree physical security is needed to fix that, the problem is employees are unplugging 110 plugs, not cables from the switch.
4 9's of uptime says nothing about bandwidth
I meant that as a separate point, sorry for not clarifying that better. they have excellent bandwidth and well informed and helpful IT team (which is unusual with my experiences).
I agree, the instances where they've had the NAS drives unplugged was the janitor looking for an open plug...not kidding.
But that is their own fault, it's just shit design and a "pure cloud" solution won't necessarily fix that.
Cameras need power, and it is typically via PoE. If they plug the PoE switch in where that NVR was, they are not solving any problems, just swapping out equipment so the janitor can unplug something different :)
Presumably these sites have routers and firewalls and stuff that facilitates their connectivity. The NVR/appliance should live wherever that stuff lives, and be powered in the same manner (hopefully dedicated circuit, UPS, etc.). If their connectivity gear is at the mercy of errant janitors, then "pure cloud" won't help.
But that is their own fault, it's just shit design and a "pure cloud" solution won't necessarily fix that.
You're correct, but they chances of accidental unplugging of a Cat5/6 cable from a switch is a lot less than a 110 plug so someone can find room for their cell phone charger. And the PoE switch is plugged into the rack's UPS which is on it's own dedicated circuit/outlets and extremely unaccessible (not security wise, just physically).
And they don't want this on the same appliance or any appliance, they want just 1-2 cameras recording to the cloud so they don't have to worry about physical equipment.
I do appreciate the feedback, but am not trying to stir up a debate on whether this is the right choice for them. I'm seeing more and more requests for this "true-cloud" and was curious about the pricing model and if people are using this and seeing if does make sense financially to do so.
With your circumstances, my comment, "there are exceptions" provides me some coverage of hind quarters! LOL!
I guess one could argue that an appliance failure is more probable than a switch/router failure but not sure on evidence to back it up.
Alternately, if the problem is unplugging or intentional/unintentional sabotage then physical remedies are more the solution (secure MDF/IDF, thermal management, clean power, etc).
All that said, I'm not well versed enough in all the offerings out there to suggest a cloud solution that meets all of your enterprise demands with all bases covered. From what I've seen, some are getting closer but the price performance ratio still seems to be quite obscure.
If there concern is a local device becoming unavailable, unplugged or network loss, then how would they handle their WAN?
I've done system with Cloud primary storage but I basically require redudant ISP, failover to cell, redunant power, and other precautions because something can/will fail on it and then they have no video recorded for an event.
Hi Clint,
Their network switches are backed up via their rack UPS. They haven't had anyone unplug network cables or anything from the rack. They haven't had any real problems losing WAN or LAN connectivity at any of their sites. I've talked to them about using SD card backup in case of network failure, but that doesn't seem to be a concern to them.
The cloud is the ultimate hack target. The ability to compromise a single system and use it to reach all cameras is a far more inviting target than an individual cam or nvr hack. Imagine someone accesses Axis guardian and now has direct m2m connection to all the attached cams. That’s the hack we will read about one day.
Eventually a cold front moves through and blows the clouds away.
Did I read correctly above that they just have 1-2 cameras per site?
If so, cloud is a phenomenal choice, other than the fact that continuous cloud recording for 30 days would be expensive enough, but for 180 days it would be downright obscenely expensive using any of the cloud recording platforms out there right now. You might be able to get Genetec to cut you a volume deal on Stratocast cloud storage, especially with a long-term commitment, but I would still expect it to be a bit shocking when you see the bill for it...
Great option though. We use it quite a bit and it fits the bill perfectly if it's deployed intelligently. Small, low-camera count sites, even if they're seemingly "expensive", still end up making sense in the long run when you consider everything that goes into an NVR-type solution.
EDIT: It should be noted that Genetec also now has the ability to storage both in the cloud AND backed up locally to an SD card. That is something they could not do before that is a big differentiator I think.The ability to have redundancy that is separate from your network is a big deal, all while keeping costs low and additional hardware out of the building.
What kind of connectivity (both LAN and WAN) is going to be used for each camera location? Seems as though this is a key consideration of recommending a robust and secure solution - especially so if Cloud only is the requirement. They cannot just use .999999 uptime magic cloud fairy dust to power and connect those cameras!
Thanks
Chris
1-2 cameras plugged into their corporate switch. IT provided, Cisco is their brand of choice, and PoE power bank has more than enough power to handle these Class 1 devices from my conversation with their IT department. Their uplink bandwidth for this is a "semi-dedicated" (as currently they have no other planed uses for it) T1 line.
Disclosure - I work for a "True Cloud" video surveillance solutions company. The advantages of True Cloud solutions are manifold for the right customers. Customers with geographically dispersed locations, or the need for just one or two cameras per site, tend to benefit the most.
However, Video Surveillance as a Service(VSaaS) is not the right choice for everyone. If the customer doesn't have the bandwidth to support True Cloud VSaaS, it's not something we would recommend. Continuous streaming to Cloud is possible but generally goes against the guiding principles of True Cloud solution. True Cloud mandates at some level, efficient motion-based recording and bandwidth management through compression, resolution, and scheduling. Some VSaaS providers effectively manage this by storing video at the edge, in a gateway or in the camera. That's not True Cloud but is an effective compromise.
Our solution buffers video in the camera and moves all recorded events to the Cloud for 7, 30, 60, 90, 180 days or more if a customer requires. The advantage of True Cloud (with Cloud video storage) is customers never run out of disk space. Video is stored by time, regardless of how much a camera is producing. That's a fundamental shift from traditional surveillance solutions.
I also agree that most alarm and security companies are not on board with VSaaS at this point. Our resellers are nearly all IT solutions companies, very illustrative of how the digital transformation, IoT and migration to Cloud services are affecting the VAR/integrator landscape.
For customers with many sites, adequate (or better) bandwidth, looking for deployment flexibility and scalability, True Cloud is a great choice. Many of our customers have hundreds of cameras at dozens of sites. The ability to migrate from disparate legacy systems to a common Cloud-based platform over a period of time is an attractive alternative to "rip and replace". True Cloud does not require VMS, DVR's, NVR's, gateways or other hardware. True Cloud can be significantly less expensive up front but with recurring service fees the cost advantage may go away over time. On the positive side, recurring fees are a potential tax deduction to the customer (OPEX vs. CAPEX) and a source of recurring revenue to the reseller.
Hi Matt,
What company do you work for, I can't see it linked. Do you find that your company can be competitive with the cloud based VaaS companies who are using an appliance box and sending motion only events to the cloud?
I believe, based on LinkedIn search it is https://viaas.com/index.html
I work for VIAAS. Yes, we are competitive with hybrid VSaaS products. In a sense we are hybrid as well. The cameras have 32GB (up to 128GB) onboard storage. Video is initially stored in the cameras and then trickled to the Cloud at a rate and schedule the customer can set for each site. Our Cloud service dynamically allocates bandwidth to each camera at a site, within the parameters set by the customer. Bandwidth allocation is determined based on those that need more and less, typically defined by the amount of motion in the scene, or resolution which can be set individually for each camera based on the customers surveillance objectives. We offer plans that rely only on the cameras onboard storage, and plans that utilize both onboard storage and Cloud. Our approach isn't for everyone but customers with many sites, many cameras and many users are a good fit. For example, here in the Silicon Valley, we have 9 school districts (~40 schools) with nearly 1000 cameras and service plans in aggregate and hundreds of users. For customers like that, True Cloud is a good fit and they love it.
Check out camcloud or genetec stratocast and their respective compatible cameras...
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