Subscriber Discussion

This Employee Doesn't Get It, What Do I Do?

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Ari Erenthal
Jan 12, 2017

Every employee I've ever had have made mistakes. The great ones made a mistake, got corrected, and then never made that mistakes again. Then average ones made mistakes a few times, learned how to do it right, and eventually stopped making those mistakes. Then there are employees who just don't seem to get it no matter how many times they're show the right way. Sometimes, it's a matter of them just not being able to understand, but sometimes, it seems to be laziness or lack of motivation. 

How do you handle junior employees who just can't seem to get with the program?

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Undisclosed #1
Jan 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Tedor sympathizes :)

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Undisclosed #2
Jan 12, 2017

Best thing to do is to simply fire them. Even if they are good hearted people who mean well, if they simply cant get it, then they are wasting your time and their time too to be honest. Sometimes you have to treat your workplace like a performance based organization, meaning if you cant perform, you will be demoted or let go.

Best to let them go early on too.

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Claudio Almeida
Jan 13, 2017

Agree. Companies aren't charity institutions. You need to make profit in order to pay salaries.

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Oleksiy Zayonchkovskyy
Jan 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I've read an article on HR and employee management in General Electric company. I was surprised a bit at first but then I've understood that total loyalty really spoils people. The main rule for GE is to fire 10% of all employees annually! Each department set a metric by which employees are measured and in addition everybody votes so management can be fired too... The great thing about it is the constant competition with known rules... Everybody knows that he or she can be fired at the end of a year if his or her performance will be the lowest among others. Yes it is cruel, but company constantly hires fresh blood, invites new ideas and getting rid of non-productive employees.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

The main rule for GE is to fire 10% of all employees annually!

Note: GE discontinued the "Rank and Yank" practice years ago.

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U
Undisclosed #6
Jan 12, 2017

Even though GE formally discontinued the "Rank and Yank" policy years ago, it was still being practiced informally as recently as 2015.

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Claudio Almeida
Jan 13, 2017

I would agree with this policy if dismissals were really fair, mainly in big companies.

In a small company is very  easy to identify who works and who doesn't.

I worked for a big company (Siemens) and what I saw there is that doesn't matter what you do, what really matters is what your superiors think you do. I saw people doing nothing all day long, but as they are very good in politics, their bosses think they are the best employees of the company. So these people never get fired.

One of them even said to me: I don't work otherwise I wouldn't have time to make politics...

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Oleksiy Zayonchkovskyy
Jan 13, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I agree about politics and that it is important... but this is pretty risky way... The main problem is the risk existence that in some time somebody will try to "taste a candy" disregarding "shiny wrapper". I took part in several exposures of that kind and results were pretty tragic. In some time anybody will encounter person who will discover that there is "unsavory candy under the shiny wrapper" and great "look like" will be dispelled into miserable "as is".

So the rule is to "be" and not "look like".

As for the politics, there are several rules of power that are great and suitable for corporate culture in my opinion which came from medieval China:

1) Never outshine your master

2) During hurricane in the forest the highest trees fall first... (great note about competition in a department)

3) When your master's star is starting to fade you must light up your own fast.

Thus, politics is really important but only in combination with competence.

And some rules from modern corporate culture:

The manager grade A will hire employees grade A

The manager grade B will hire employees grade C

The manager grade C will hire employees grade D

...

The result is obvious: only professional managers hire and able to adequately use star employees and are not scared to loose their position. The rest will try to create comfortable, safe surrounding and make politics as a substitute for a real work.

The real problem for the star employee is to discover "who your master is" and behave correspondingly.

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Marty Major
Jan 13, 2017
Teledyne FLIR

your words are wise... :)

however,

"The real problem for the star employee is to discover "who your master is" and behave correspondingly."

I only agree with this if 'behave accordingly' includes efforts to remove the ineffectual 'master' that dampers the light of the star performer - and does not include reducing the output of the star performer.

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MI
Matt Ion
Jan 13, 2017

I worked for a big company (Siemens) and what I saw there is that doesn't matter what you do, what really matters is what your superiors think you do. I saw people doing nothing all day long, but as they are very good in politics, their bosses think they are the best employees of the company. So these people never get fired.

Those would be your "Wallys"...

 

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Claudio Almeida
Jan 13, 2017

Yes, Matt Ion, life imitates art. Or it will be the opposite? :)

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U
Undisclosed #7
Jan 13, 2017

And very few managers were fired, many of them were moved up or to another division...

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UE
Undisclosed End User #3
Jan 12, 2017

I'd tell them to "get to the chopper"

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DW
Dennis Widdows
Jan 12, 2017

The best thing I have learned over the past 26 years or so of running a business is to be forward in your expectations for each employee, your goal for them in relation to the their place in the company infrastructure, the timetable you have for them to achieve each goal, the specific ways for them to meet that goal and how they can accelerate the time table and make more money. The training they receive as they toil at moving up must be highlighted and basic work rules such as time and attendance must be adhered to.Once that is established an escalating form of discipline and actions should be laid out in writing if work rules or goals are not met.After that it is incumbent on the employer < me in this instance> to make sure all of those things are followed and to let the employee know what they are deficient in and what the resulting action will be before they get to that level.

 

The biggest mistakes I have made in the past and learning this the hard way was to let some slide...it NEVER resulted in a good outcome...in fact it always got worse and it brought down morale as a whole for the entire company. Lived and learned. Make a plan and don't deviate from it.Fair but firm. Levels of excellence must be identified and maintained.

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U
Undisclosed #4
Jan 12, 2017

Evaluation of Strength's and Weaknesses during the initial consideration for hire also has to be updated continuously to determine how the employee's attributes can best benefit your company. No matter how clever and experienced a person may seem they cannot always lay down their character and nature. The upside is that people can be nursed back to health if placed in environments that cultivate both their internal and external characteristics. Mentorship and self-awareness of their team work ethics will also expose where this individual may need additional help. The security professionals for hire are never turnkey, super tech engineers that just close jobs in beast mode all day. I have seen the bad ones turned around however it is a time investment that will cost you money to train them into your business model. If they simply cannot see the light of day whether solving logical problems, service, installation, clean up, delivering tasks that where asked of them, then it is RISK to your company, team and customer base to keep this person on the payroll. After all fair chances to succeed you just have to let this person go.

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Bob Schenck
Jan 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I like the responses so far.  My thoughts:

1) Set clear expectations for timeliness, appearance, attitude.  Remember you may be this person's first boss. 

2) Establish procedures and teach them to new employees.  Encourage them to take notes and have all employees use checklists for lengthy or complicated projects.  Don't let a culture of "experts don't need instruction manuals" develop.

3) Document failures and suggest corrective actions.  Engage in a two way conversation - a failure shouldn't be a one-sided chewing out, it should be an investigation into what when wrong and why.  Knowing the mindset of the employee can help identify root causes that may not have be immediately apparent.  

4) Review all new employees performance after a 90 or 120 probationary period.

If the employee shows a record of continuing to fail the same tasks over and over again, they either don't care or are in the wrong line of work.  Let them go.  It is too hard on the morale of the other employees if you keep an employee who can't learn their job and you are not doing any favors to a new employee by starting them down a career path they are not good at.

Also, on a related note, don't hire relatives, children of clients, in-laws, neighbors, etc..

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Jan 12, 2017

I would ask him/her if they truly want to be there.  If not, there's the door.  Waste of your time otherwise.  If yes, then set the expectations listed in previous responses here. Either they get it, or they don't and its less of a headache for you.

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Marty Major
Jan 13, 2017
Teledyne FLIR

This is a really tough topic.... we've all known straight-up 'good people' who couldn't cut the mustard day to day in the position that they, for whatever reason, hold.

Going back to Ari's OP:

"Sometimes, it's a matter of them just not being able to understand, but sometimes, it seems to be laziness or lack of motivation."

The bolded section has two participant types of people - those that simply lack the intellect to understand, and those that you aren't reaching so that they are able to understand.

First one's easy:  why did you hire this person in the first place?

Second one's not so easy:  maybe you aren't the teacher you imagine yourself to be.  Maybe the employee aint gettin' it cuz you aint splainin' stuff in a  manner that can be received by this employee?

Really smart people sometimes fall victim to dismissing those that don't grasp what they can easily grasp.  Teaching is tougher (and goes deeper) than simply telling.  Some people have to be shown the obvious - while most scoff at this because it's so damn obvious to them.  If you've hired this person, why give up on them without fighting to keep them?

And if it's laziness or lack of motivation (and not lack of positive attitude), well maybe you can do something about that too.... you hired this person.  Why?  Motivate them.

NOTE:  I am purposefully taking the devils advocate approach here.  Some people simply got to go.  Nobody is batting 1.000 on hiring and there are a lot of people that can fool you during the interview process.

But you gotta fight for your people.  Even if you fail individually, your other people see how you fight for them. 

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 13, 2017
IPVMU Certified

...those that simply lack the intellect to understand...why did you hire this person in the first place?

Because I lacked the intellect to understand their lack of intellect :)

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Josh Hendricks
Jan 13, 2017
Milestone Systems

But you gotta fight for your people. Even if you fail individually, your other people see how you fight for them.

I couldn't agree more. As you said, some people "got to go". But before that, it's important to fight for them. It is no good for morale to simply send people packing. Even if you just look at it from a pure business perspective and ignore the emotional piece, it costs a lot of money to find and train someone. Even if this person is only operating at 40-50%, if there's a chance you can get them to 80% within a matter of 6-8 weeks, it may be a lot more cost effective than starting over.

I don't know your situation Ari - you may very well have done all you reasonably can do. If you haven't already put them on a performance improvement plan/notice, it might be a good idea to write one up and explain to them the situation formally. Then at least they know they're on notice and have 30-60 days or what have you to either get on top of things, or prepare to line up a job they're more qualified for...

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Claudio Almeida
Jan 13, 2017

You said: "maybe you aren't the teacher you imagine yourself to be.  Maybe the employee aint gettin' it cuz you aint splainin' stuff in a  manner that can be received by this employee?" 

Well, he said that just some employees are like that, not all of them. 

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Marty Major
Jan 13, 2017
Teledyne FLIR

Right.

If everyone possessed the same aptitude for learning, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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Marty Major
Jan 13, 2017
Teledyne FLIR

Givers vs Takers

"Disagreeable givers are the most undervalued people in our organizations, because they're the ones who give the critical feedback that no one wants to hear but everyone needs to hear,"

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 13, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Agree.

Surrounding yourself with selfless Givers is essential for those looking for rapid career advancement.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #8
Jan 14, 2017

Slow to hire, fast to fire.

I hire people who during the interview I can read pretty well. If they arrive early, are prepared (i.e. bring own pen, drivers license, etc), straight posture, etc...those help them gain points with me. I also put them thru tests to evaluate their skill.

A few months ago, I had an applicant whose application was an absolute joke- used pencil, scotch tape, etc. But for the tasks I needed him to do on the computer, he was an extremely fast learner. Not all people are book smart/good on paper.

MI
Matt Ion
Jan 16, 2017

An acquaintance many years ago was a sous chef at a hotel in a major ski resort, and he told me he'd streamlined his hiring process to one question: "Skier or snowboarder?" The boarders, he explained, tended to be the snow-chasing transients, slackers, potheads... the generally less reliable ones. Of course, this was when boarding was a relatively new thing, before it became "family mainstream".

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Undisclosed #1
Jan 16, 2017
IPVMU Certified

"Skier or snowboarder?"

"Race" discrimination ;)

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #9
Jan 16, 2017

Cut your losses.

Hired hundreds of people through a number of years and very  seldom do they turn around and in those cases, a clear explanation of what was expected reset their course.

If you have done this once, your job is 99% complete, now cut your loses as there are good people needing opportunity.

Pruning of dead wood will make the tree stronger.

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