The Best Installers Are Electricans?

IPVMU Certified

IPVM is ramping up coverage of installation topics, tools, and techniques. I spoke with a 35+ year integrator installer lead tech, and he shared a simple answer to 'What training do installers need to be great and fully prepared for security work?'

His answer: 'They need to be trained as Electricians.'

The basis of his statement isn't crazy, considering how close a high-voltage electrician's typical scope of work is compared to integrators. I asked him 'What about IT experience?', and he suggested that a good tech can 'pick up the needed skills OTJ' but that learning to use tools and installation techniques was much more difficult and is best learned in mandatory apprentice/journeyman/helper periods before full licensure, and the base knowledge an electrician uses is the same for integrators.

But the cost of training an electrician is far, far higher than a security tech. And an electrician charges multiples more per hour than security tasks. Also the amount of knowledge those workers have is typically far greater.

Do you agree that good security techs are essentially trained the same as electricians?

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Brian Karas

IPVM

I see the logic in what he is saying. Though I think there are options besides "electrician" for the basis of what makes a good tech. A core skill is figuring out the best way to do a common process (mount hardware, run cables, etc.) in multiple physical locations that will have little in common. There is an art to good cable management, efficient use of space to arrange components, thinking about how all the pieces will fit together so that you can do operations in the most efficient order, etc.

Someone with a strong background in datacenter installations, commercial A/V installations, or even car audio would likely have a lot of overlap with the electrician skillset as it pertains to security installs.

Installation mistakes can be costly in terms of time and materials, and this is an area where having a mentor/apprentice arrangement can be very beneficial if your techs are green.

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John Bazyk

Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

I think his comment depends on the state you're doing business in. In CT you have to go through an apprenticeship, journeyman and take the appropriate classes and tests that include NEC. Low voltage electricians in CT are very well trained and aware of high voltage code compliance they just can't legally work on it even though a lot of the training/tests are similar.

I could see how this train of thought could apply in states like PA where little licensing is required to install security systems.

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Chad Rohde

In reply to John Bazyk

In Texas, the electricians that dabble in low voltage splice cat5 with wire nuts and crimp RJ45s with each of the conductors insulation stripped to bare copper. And even more impressive they can daisy chain ethernet drops.

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Daniel S-T

In reply to Chad Rohde

This has also been my experience with Electricians.

Newer electricians are sometimes better, but sometimes not. The older electricians definitely know very little about low voltage. I will always trust their judgment when it comes to putting in conduit, cable tray, and even fishing wire. But they are not kind to their wires, used to thicker gauge wire, with a thicker jacket that can handle a little more than a Cat 5.

The odd time we had an electrician do cabling for us, usually didn't go well. Now my argument was we didn't give them proper guidance as to how we wanted it done. An example, two separate times, with different electrical contractors. They both ran conduit for us, and both ran the cabling from panel to device. Only problem was they ran from panel to first junction box. Stopped. Ran new line from First junction box to second junction box. Stopped. So on and so forth. This is how they do it for plugs and such, why not with low voltage alarm wire?

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Carl Lindgren

In reply to John Bazyk

Connecticut tends to be bass-ackwards anyway. When I moved from NY to CT to manage a Radio Shack repair facility, CT said I had to work as an apprentice if I was going to repair any consumer electronics devices despite my years of experience in NY. Radio Shack finally convinced the state to allow me to take their "Black and White TV" CET test without the apprenticeship and when I passed, I was allowed to repair almost any consumer electronics equipment in CT except color TVs (which required a different license) and 2-way radios.

Flash forward to the VCR age and I asked CT what license I would need to repair VCRs and camcorders, etc. They claimed I would need to apprentice for a year under someone with a "Color TV" license, then take another test. So I moved to California where I just had to pay the state $130 a year to work repairing almost any consumer electronics devices. No apprenticeships or tests required.

I did get a laugh when I took the Black and White TV test. One of the questions was "A customer brings in a car radio, claiming it doesn't work. After checking the fuse, what is the next thing to test?" The answer was "The vibrator". I'd be willing to bet that except for some snarky thoughts, few of you know what the answer means. :^)

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Michael Silva

In reply to Carl Lindgren

Silva Consultants

I guess that only a fellow dinosaur like me would understand the answer. Up until about the mid-1960's, car radios used vacuum tubes that required a higher voltage to operate. To convert the 6 or 12 volt DC power in the car to a higher voltage, it was first necessary to change the DC to AC using a vibrator. The vibrator was an electromechanical device with rapidly moving switch contacts that chopped the DC voltage up into a rough form of AC. Once converted into AC, the power could then be stepped up to a higher voltage using a transformer.

When in operation, vibrators made a distinct buzzing sound, which gave them their name. When I first started my career in the early 70's, I worked at an auto radio shop that was still seeing a steady stream of older car radios that still used vibrators.

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Carl Lindgren

In reply to Michael Silva

Congratulations, Michael. Pretty much everyone else I've ever told that story to came up with a blank.

Surprising enough, they make (or at least made) drop-in solid state replacements for mechanical vibrators. I took that CET test in the mid-70's and when I read the question I cracked up, causing almost everyone else taking the tests to stare at me.

Then again, I still have a scar on my right arm from the flyback transformer in a Motorola Quasar TV. They were known dangerous because the flyback's wiring was sticking out from side of the high voltage cage and you had to reach around past that area to get a tuning tool into the color reference oscillator coil.

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Undisclosed #7

In reply to Michael Silva

I miss the smell of my transistor radio.

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Carl Lindgren

•Jul 11, 2018

In reply to Undisclosed #7

And I miss waiting for the tubes to warm up.

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Brian Rhodes

IPVMU Certified

I know from working with electricians that the equipment they work with is pretty open ended and broad. Not defined by a niche at all, as in if it needs electricity they'll install it.

The job tickets can look like Electrical motors on Monday, Retractable Movie screens on Tuesday, Thermostats on Wednesday, etc.

Electricians often bid on and install security equipment as well. Not always with great results, but it drives the point just how broadly they are willing to take on jobs.

Is that really what a security integrator wants in an installer?

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Undisclosed Integrator #1

We are a small company but from what I saw from my previous company and what I am dealing with now, I am looking at 2 different categories.

Installers - Guys who pull cable, mount and aim cameras, mount enclosures, run conduit, etc.

Technician - Guys who can quickly program/stage cameras/NVR's, troubleshoot systems etc.

We are just getting into access control and learning our way through that but I have to assume once these guys are trained, they should know how to install a lock/strike, mount a REX, etc.

Basically if it involves drilling, the installers do it. If it involves a keypad/keyboard, the tech does it.

So when I hire installers, I actually recruit electrician helpers. These are the guys that know how to drill into concrete, bend conduit, climb ladders etc. They usually understand basic framing, how walls are built, and how to fish cable. Just have to teach them how to terminate CAT5.

On a side note at my former company, the owner hired this guy he thought would be great. We wound up doing a real small project for a business a few doors down. I walked over to check on the project and the guy was literally drilling through a metal building with a hammer drill in hammer mode.

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Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified

And an electrician charges multiples more per hour than security tasks.

Really? I thought was the other way around.

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Brian Rhodes

In reply to Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified

Not in my area. Rack rate for a licensed electrician is ~$85/hr, and even more depending on the job. Industrial electricians can get $200/hr. I've seen it agreed on without even a wince. The oilfield guys drive $100k trucks and wear ostrich skin boots.

Getting a senior security tech onsite seems to often go for ~$45/hr, but if you call and gripe at your salesman about it, you might never see an invoice for it.

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Fabian Muyawa

LONTECH SYSTEMS • IPVMU Certified

When it comes to installation particularly devices mounting, cable management etc I want to believe Electricians have the skill. However, the termination and configuration of devices require some skills in electronics and telecommunications.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #3

Actually, many dealers are now doing projects on a "parts and smarts" basis, leaving the wiring and installation to electrical contractors, who, as pointed out, are primarily tasked with wiring, conduit, device hanging, etc. The EC's can either be prime or subcontractors, depending on the spec or end user preferences. Doesn't seem to make much sense to replicates electrical installation techniques (and the mandated insurance and licensing issues) in a security integrator's organization, unless their vertical markets require total turnkey solutions or 'One throat to choke'

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Bas Poiesz

Installation rules for electricians are far more specific when compared to security installers.

Security installers can basically do what they want when electricians are used to labeling and using proper cable trays. They deliver a clean install compared to the average security installer.

Just my two cents

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Undisclosed #4

Our in-house installation team is small but they are very well skilled and cross-certified for all VMS and access control platforms we sell. We often have to subcontract work to companies that claim to be electricians when in fact they are low voltage guys, and average at best. It's hard to find a good subcontractor for a fair price to do a small to medium sized job. Any time I have to provide "typicals" or have to explain how to wire up a door, or how to focus a camera, I am just tempted to get in my car and do the work myself. Also, in NYC (and maybe State?), there are some new laws regarding paying installers at prevailing wage rates even though they are not union, so there's no financial benefit to keeping the work in house anymore.

I believe truly skilled trained electricians can be artisans when it comes to cabling, labeling, and overall neatness but they come at a premium cost, which can price a small integrator out of a contract.

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Chad Rohde

In reply to Undisclosed #4

If overall neatness and precise guidelines that must be followed is what you are looking for, then Verizon Wireless is the best I've seen. I did some subcontract work for them for about a year upgrading their battery backup and rectifier cabinets in their cell tower shelters. Including all copper cabling attached.

They have rules all the way down to the way you zip tie cables to equipment. And their grounds are grounded to another ground that ties into the buildings main ground that is grounded to towers ground and then grounded a couple more times.

And the electricians I was working for didn't consider that Low Voltage wiring beneath them. Those 12 300lb 4v batteries wired in series only added up to 48v, but could weld a ratchet to the terminal in a flash bang if you accidentally ground out the complete bank. (Not me).

Here is an ATT example that looks similar to what I am talking about.

At the time I thought it was ridiculous. But I learned a lot and have been a stickler when it comes to clean wiring ever since.

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Undisclosed Integrator #5

In my area, it seems like electricians think low-voltage is beneath them. However, having said that, I do believe techs should have some electrical experience added to their skill-set.

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Joe LoRe

Not meant to be a knock on electricians have many friends who are but usually I can tell when camera job is done by electrician all the conduit work is beautiful but terminations mounting positions and NVR / DVR setup usually leaves much to be desired. I frequently get calls from them when it comes time for programming or troubleshooting camera and alarm systems. Is true the amount of time effort and expense it takes to get an electrician's license makes it almost not even worth while for them to get in the camera or alarm business since they are able to make so much more money doing traditional electrical work

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Joe LoRe

Finding an electrician or electrician apprentice who knows what he's doing not nearly as difficult as finding and alarm technician that knows his stuff as I can tell you just trying to find an apprentice

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Chad Rohde

A good electrician will make a good low voltage installer. And vice versa. There is more codes and safety guidelines being an electrician for good reason. If someone is smart enough to be a licensed electrician of any level, then they could install low voltage. And vice versa. Just a matter of training.

On the flip side, you can't fix stupid. High or low voltage manual installations done correctly isn't a job most folks are capable of learning to do. And should be taken seriously. Lives and big money at stake.

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Michael Silva

Silva Consultants

30 years ago, you could make a generalized statement that journeyman electricians did a poor job of installing security, surveillance and other low-voltage systems. Not true today. Many electricians can now do an excellent job of installing these systems, and in fact, some of the very finest projects that I have been involved with have been installed by electricians.

What electricians do well is following plans and specifications and installing things using the workmanship techniques that they were taught during their rigorous apprenticeship. When a project has been designed in detail by an engineer or consultant, I feel that electricians may do a better job of installing it than most integrator technicians. This is because they will follow directions rather than attempt to rethink the job and do what they think is right.

On the other hand, most electricians tend to do poorly when given vague instructions rather than specific directions. For example, telling an electrician "install some cameras to provide coverage of the loading dock" will most often give you unsatisfactory results. In these situations, I would much rather have an integrator technician do the work, as they are used to working with a lack of specific direction and have the ability to figure things out for themselves.

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Daniel S-T

I have held the belief for awhile that in some whats our industry could learn a lot from the Electrical industry. In terms of the apprentice/Journeyman side. Maybe 4 years is a little long, but some form of mandatory apprenticeship could go a long way.

When I started close to ten years ago, I went around with a guy who had been doing alarms for 25+ years, since before I was born (I was 19 at the time). I learned a lot from him, but I was with him for all of two weeks. Then I was on my own. I'm a fairly technical guy, learning how to program panels and such wasn't that big of a deal, but I struggled for a long time with fishing wires. I was never shown how. I learned some things on my own, trial and error sort of thing.

I feel like an apprenticeship type thing could have done me a lot of good for the basics of installing. Because as it stands now I feel like a lot of people learned like I did, on their own. Some form of industry wide standards and guidelines and dedicated training for more than just a week or two.

In my experience, with electricians in my area, they struggle with Low Voltage stuff. Not all of them, of course, but many. So many are used to pulling armoured cable, or through conduit. Many even assume they no longer have to follow electrical code. In my area, we are supposed to follow code, doesn't mean we all do, but we are supposed to. I said in an earlier comment, they will run junction boxes, and make splices in there for low voltage cables. No so bad for alarm cabling, but the preference is still to have a single line from panel to device.

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Carl Lindgren

In reply to Daniel S-T

Surprisingly enough, California does have a website dedicated to apprenticeship programs. Here's a link to their "Sound / Communication Installer" list: https://www.dir.ca.gov/databases/das/results_aiglist.asp?varCounty=%25&varType=21&Submit=Search

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #6

I was troubleshooting an issue that I had recently. I had installed some cameras at my kid's school. I had an electrician run the wiring through a pipe under a roadway, under a modular building, and into conduit to a box. I would then install the camera myself.

The first camera was fine, but developed an issue with the imager or the imager cable assembly, so I took it down and put up a replacement. The replacement worked for a few days and then went dead.

I finally got around to replacing the camera with a more modern camera, and plugged it in, and nothing. Before I started to crawl around under the building, I noticed this....

The electrician spliced the network cable and used wire nuts, which had come loose and fell off when I touched them. So that is why I had random intermittent issues, and it eventually went out.

A security guy would have known to never cut the network cable...

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Undisclosed #7

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #6

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Undisclosed #7