Subscriber Discussion

Tech Loses Expensive Tester, Who Pays?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 13, 2017

A tech lost a $1200 Fluke tester. He doesn't remember where he left it. He went to the last job it was used at but can't find it.

 

Whose responsibility is it? 

Thank you 

JH
John Honovich
Dec 13, 2017
IPVM

Poll added below:

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U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 13, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Is this a recurring pattern of irresponsibility by the employee or just a Fluke?

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Dec 13, 2017

I would need a little more info to get a better view.

How lang has he worked for you?
Have you had any prior incidents/doubts?
How was the working relationship?
Was he alone on site at all times?

 

 

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Avatar
Ari Erenthal
Dec 13, 2017
Chesapeake & Midlantic

Depends on the tech. If they've shown a pattern of carelessness, you can probably either have them pay for the tester (a little at a time, perhaps) or fire them. If this is an isolated incident, though, a warning is probably best. 

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 13, 2017
IPVM

Related, if such things happen more than every once in a few years, it might be worth having a written policy in an employee manual to cover this. There could be pushback like "I didn't know I was responsible", etc.

Also, any technological solution to this? How about? Smart Power Tools For Security Installs

(4)
KL
Keefe Lovgren
Dec 14, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Agree, however, depending upon which state you operate out of there may be a different set of rules than just the employee handbook. 

In North Dakota (my state) you are not able to deduct from an employee's paycheck for anything other than court ordered deductions, payroll advances, state and federal withholdings without the employee's authorization in writing.  So, if they are reasonable and see the error of their way and are willing to sign authorization you are good to go, if not then your out of luck.

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 14, 2017
IPVM

Keefe, good point. This is the type of issue that would benefit from a legal review.

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Avatar
Joseph Parker
Dec 20, 2017

I use a large payroll company primarily for group rates on employee health insurance, but we've found them invaluable for questions like this.  We just call our HR Rep, they look at state and federal laws and give us either thumbs up, thumbs down, or "it's legal but not recommended".

JS
John Stenmo
Dec 20, 2017

Same in California. We have them sign a memo in regard to responsibility for company issued tools, but at the end of the day, we have to pay for it. 

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Dec 13, 2017

This is tuff. We had a tech get all of his tools stolen out of the back of his truck because he left his truck wide open. Our employment contract says that the techs are responsible for providing their own tools. However, this tech is a good tech so we gave him some money to go out and buy some more tools. Not enough to cover everything but enough to take the pain away. Would we buy tools a second time? Not sure, depends on the situation. 

If you don't have anything about it in your employee handbook or contract then you really can't make him pay for it. That will only create a bad employee. This is what bonuses are for. It makes it possible to not deduct pay or force someone to pay for something. If they do something like this then the next quarterly bonus is just smaller and you explain why. They can make it up the next quarter if they work hard. 

(4)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Dec 14, 2017

Stolen vs. lost are two separate things... could the tech have been more proactive and avoided getting his tools stolen?  Perhaps, but to be so unorganized that you forget where you "lost" an expensive tool?  I'm fairly certain that if the tech had been the one to purchase the tool he would have been much more careful with it. 

I've had techs that weren't careful with the items we provide them to the point of breaking them and we've had to purchase them again.  Needless to say, they are no longer with the company.  I figure if they treat their work tools like this, I can imagine what they do at a client site.  I can't afford to lose clients because a tech is too careless. 

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U
Undisclosed
Dec 21, 2017

the tech is responsible for their own tools.  so your service level suffers from your tech's buying habits.  Unless your tech feels like buying a $1k fiber cable tester nobody's ever going to check that?  How's your turnover among techs who have figured out how to buy decent tools?

in some places catching a vendor make their techs buy the tools is a red flag, fyi.

RS
Robert Shih
Dec 13, 2017
Independent

Ouch and yeah as everyone says, this is entirely contextual. Not touching this with a blanket opinion as there are variables here that matter too much.

Alternate route of thought: If even chefs have to own their own knives, maybe techs should cart their own tools and testers around?

(1)
U
Undisclosed
Dec 21, 2017

Techs should carry decent tools.  One hopes the integrator and their team members work that out together.  We assume you people have had the "we all take care of our tools, right?" conversation during employee orientation.   Just like you had the "we all work together to take proper tools with us to the job site" conversation during the interview.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Dec 13, 2017

I’d say the tech. Don’t set a precedent of paying for tools due to carelessness.

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RS
Robert Shih
Dec 13, 2017
Independent

I keep hearing that good techs are hard to find and sometimes you have to make them. Even if he has to pay for it, IF he's a good tech you should soften the blow a bit by making it something he can pay for over time.

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Avatar
Brian Rhodes
Dec 13, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Call it heartless, but I agree with this. If I lost this tool, why should I expect someone else to pay for it?

Right is right, and it does not need to be negative or poorly enforced.

Ask the employee what they would do in your/management's place.  The answer they give will be telling of what kind of employee they are.

 

 

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Dec 20, 2017

Unless you're unionized or government, there would be no precedent. A private company is free to act how it chooses unless it's deemed to be discriminating against someone based on what's defined (i.e. race, religion, etc.). Favoritism based on performance isn't discrimination. If the employee in question does consistently excellent work and this incident can't be ascribed to any sort of pattern, the right thing to do would be to eat the cost of the tester and retain his loyalty and work ethic, ESPECIALLY AT CHRISTMAS.

The fastest way to kill a business is to make the best employees not care anymore.

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oK
oleg Kush
Dec 13, 2017

Depends on policy. We have fleet and one employee caused car accident... Technically it is an accident after all company should pay deductable and move on... But this guy gets ticket for mobile phone use while driving... He is out.

BTW... He told police officer that he didn't see stop sign as he was looking down at his phone.... Honesty is not always rewarded 

RS
Robert Shih
Dec 13, 2017
Independent

There is definitely no grey area there. If he's that careless operating a vehicle on the job, then what about his work ethic? Can't trust it, ever.

Avatar
Brian Karas
Dec 13, 2017
IPVM

You will likely need to write this one off, and set a formal policy for expensive stuff in the care of employees. Otherwise, where do you draw the line? Would you react the same for a $20 tool as a $1200 one? A $50 tool? A $500 tool? At some point your concern probably switches from "doesn't matter" to "this counts", but that should be clearly defined.

For expensive tools, even ones that stay with the techs, it is common to have a formal checkout/signout process, as well as an occasional inventory check. Manufacturers often do this when they assign large amounts of demo equipment to employees, and I have known integrators with similar policies around techs in charge of valuable company assets.

By checking the item out or formally assigning it, as well as doing periodic "yup, tech still has it" checks, you have a more enforceable policy, particularly when/if an employee leaves and tries to say something like "I haven't seen that tester in several months, I thought someone else borrowed it from my truck".

 

(3)
DW
Dennis Widdows
Dec 13, 2017

A little off the thread track but I had a tech who was with me for 14 years who  I trained who was proficient in both component level bench repair and field installations...We have a written policy regarding tools, meters, service monitors etc...stating that the techs are responsible for there tools and company owned equipment at the job site and too and from the shop...One day he had to go to a local Home Depot to pick up some last minute supplies we did not have and brought a company van loaded with tools, Drills, meters, sawzalls, A Hilti Hamer drill and various other installation equipment...He did not secure the doors to the vehicle with the installed electric dead bolts we had put in because of and issue with one of the side doors that he told management he had fixed and subsequently while he was in the store the Van got robbed of much of what was in there...20 to 25 K worth of stuff...

When he told me I asked  why he had taken that van to the Home Depot in the 1st place loaded with tools when he knew the deadbolts were not working on the side doors when empty vans were at the shop he could have used and why he did not tell me the door was not fixed on that van as we often used it as one of main install units...He stated he was too busy and he did not have time to fix it or have it fixed and then asked when he could get a check for his stolen tool bag...I was pissed as hell and felt like beating his ass as you can imagine...The area we are here in Chicago is on the West side so it is not unusual to have someone rip your vehicles off in a parking lot...

I told him Id talk to the insurance company on his tools and that in the mean time he could use shop stuff till it was resolved...During the time he was told this till the time I actually gave him a check for what he said  he was missing was like 8 weeks..during that time he was constantly moaning about his tool check and that we were ripping him off etc...which was total bs as I did not get a check from the insurance company till after I gave him one...

Ultimately it ruined our relationship and a year later I told him to find another job...It cost me in the long run a great tech who had some flaws personally but who was good for business...In retrospect I think it would in a business view have been better to have just covered his loss much more quickly-- even though he was totally at fault...

I still am pissed at this person and bitter about all the resources I spent in training him and his lack of acknowledgement of his culpability and disloyalty but as an owner my perspective is much different then the employee...

 

Just thought Id put that out there...

 

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U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 13, 2017
IPVMU Certified

In retrospect I think it would in a business view have been better to have just covered his loss much more quickly-- even though he was totally at fault...

Sorry, but the idea of bending over backwards to kiss someone’s ass is something I can’t get my head around.

I’m just not that flexible...

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DW
Dennis Widdows
Dec 13, 2017

I get it...I dont kiss much ass lol...I was just giving a scenario that played out to the detriment of all involved do to an issue like this...

It also depends on the size of your company...We are not large business...

If you have personnel in place to shore up any potential loss it makes way easier to take a different more impersonal tact for sure... 

 

(1)
Avatar
Ari Erenthal
Dec 15, 2017
Chesapeake & Midlantic

A good tech is hard to find. Really, really hard, in some places. 

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DR
Dennis Ruban
Dec 20, 2017

 I had a tech who was with me for 14 years

And then

I still am pissed at this person and bitter about all the resources I spent in training him

As a PM I understand that people are just a different kind of resources, but still, it sounds not really good. "I put so much effort in this truck and, after 14 years, it's broken, and I have to buy another one!"

How much money did you make selling this guy hours? Was his paycheck the same 14 years ago and now (inflation-adjusted)? I think, 14 years with the same company in the same position is a great example of loyalty or stupidness, pick one. I worked in IT mostly and 3-4 years of service considered as a lot. If you are not a conveyor worker, you want to move forward after several years, so you should appreciate that guy service.

(1)
AM
Albert Matthes
Dec 14, 2017

A $1200 meter, I would split it with the tech unless this was a consistent problem. I let my techs know what things are worth when they are expensive and to take care of them. I have paid for lost drills and minor things but if they lose it twice they have to pay for it.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Dec 20, 2017

The keys to our transit vans are around $500. Everyone screws up every once in a while. With that in mind, the first one they lose is on me, the replacement delivered with a wag of the finger and a note that reminds them the second one is on them. This is in the employee manual.

(1)
Avatar
Brian Karas
Dec 20, 2017
IPVM

Not sure which vans you use, but you can often buy the intelligent/RF key fobs that are common today much cheaper on ebay, and then program them yourself.

If there is a metal key that is used, most locksmiths can cut the key at regular rates.

Research the procedure for programming your keys BEFORE you lose one. In some cases you need 2 previously authorized keys to add a new one easily, otherwise the process becomes extremely lengthy. For those vehicles (Ford is one known for this), it makes sense to buy the spare and program it up front.

DR
Dennis Ruban
Dec 20, 2017

in most jurisdictions, you can't charge your employee so this question is not about how we think it suppose to be

U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 21, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Even in cases of gross negligence and when the employee has signed a statement when hired?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Dec 21, 2017

Yes. You would need to take them to court if you wanted to recover the funds, and depending on labor law any statement they signed when hired to the effect that they'd be responsible for reparations would be legally unenforceable. In my jurisdiction an employer isn't even allowed to deduct the cost of uniforms.

If you tried to deduct wages for lost tools in my jurisdiction the courts and Labor Standards division would look very unfavorably upon you. They would support you disciplining or terminating the employee but wages themselves are sacrosanct.

U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 21, 2017
IPVMU Certified

What’s your jurisdiction?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Dec 21, 2017

https://www.gov.mb.ca/labour/standards/doc,deductions,factsheet.html#q343

What types of things cannot be deducted from employees’ wages?

Employers cannot charge interest or fees for cashing cheques or providing payroll advances.  Employers cannot recover business expenses from the wages of employees. 

Unauthorized deductions include:

  • Fees to cash cheques
  • Cost of damage to company property and vehicles (i.e. insurance deductible, parking tickets, or other violations, with the exception of photo radar ticket or a red light camera tickets)
  • Cost of lost, stolen or broken tools, equipment, products, or faulty service
  • Cost of cash or inventory shortages, dine & dashes, or drive offs
  • Cost of personal safety equipment
    • Safety equipment is an employer’s responsibility.  There are exceptions for safety headwear and some safety footwear.  Contact The Workplace Safety and Health Branch at 204-945-3446 or visit their website safemanitoba.com for more information.
  • Cost of a uniform
U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 21, 2017
IPVMU Certified

https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/faq_deductions.htm

There is an exception to the foregoing contained in the Industrial Welfare Commission Wage Orders that purports to provide the employer the right to deduct from an employee's wages for any cash shortage, breakage or loss of equipment if the employer can show that the shortage, breakage or loss is caused by a dishonest or willful act, or by the employee's gross negligence. What this means is that a deduction may be legal if the employer proves that the loss resulted from the employee's dishonesty, willfulness, or grossly negligent act. Under this regulation, a simple accusation does not give the employer the right to make the deduction. The DLSE has cautioned that use of this deduction contained in the IWC regulations may, in fact, not comply with the provisions of the California Labor Code and various California Court decisions. Furthermore, DLSE does not automatically assume that an employee was dishonest, acted willfully or was grossly negligent when an employer asserts such as a justification for making a deduction from an employee's wages to cover a shortage, breakage, or loss to property or equipment.

Would losing a $1200 tool and not even knowing when or on what job site it was lost at qualify as “gross negligence”?

If not, what would?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Dec 22, 2017

I don't know what California labor code has to do with Manitoba's, but in any case no, losing a tool does not count as gross negligence.

Gross negligence requires some sort of recklessness or wanton disregard for others. Being absent minded or unlucky doesn't qualify.

*[not a lawyer]

U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I don't know what California labor code has to do with Manitoba's...

My bad. Classic CA California/Canada Confusion, has been seen before here.  “Cheques” should have been a tip-off :)

 

U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Gross negligence requires some sort of recklessness or wanton disregard for others. Being absent minded or unlucky doesn't qualify.

From law.com:

*[me neither]

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Dec 22, 2017

None of these really mean anything because A) every jurisdiction is different, and B) it is not so unless a judge says it is so.

I think the company should eat the cost of the tester, discipline the employee, and move on. If he's a problem, fire him. If he's a good tech, chalk it up to bad luck and consider all the other revenue he's brought you and will continue to do so now that you've cemented his loyalty by giving him a (one time) pass.

U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Svet got fired for gross negligence ;)

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #8
Dec 21, 2017

Does anyone else think this tester could be on eBay right now? I used to work with an employee who had major cash flow issues. When one box of cameras from a shipment went missing from our warehouse (either stolen/lost/never received) I couldn't help but wonder if I should be watching for them on-line.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Dec 21, 2017

Absolutely. Having had a relative that worked the pawn section in the local police department I can assure you this happens far more often than you think.

OP should have reported the serial number as stolen to their local police and if they haven't, do it NOW. Definitely keep an eye on eBay, Kijiji, and local pawn shops. A lot of "lost" equipment is rediscovered this way. 

U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Does anyone else think this tester could be on eBay right now?

Sure, and you might even make a buck or two ;)

U
Undisclosed
Dec 21, 2017

if it's expensive enough to be painful to use it should have a leash on it.  yeah. really, a leash tied to the tech so they can't walk away from the fluke tester.  perhaps a leash tying it to the really good oversized pelican case it's carried around in so nobody can pocket the thing.

presumably this happens at some low frequency and so one probably should plan for replacing $1200 widgets from time to time as cost-of-doing-business.

 

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Dec 21, 2017

so one probably should plan for replacing $1200 widgets from time to time as cost-of-doing-business.

Precisely.

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