In the Canadian market, there are multiple brands that are price-comparable to Hikvision on the lower end: Samsung, FLIR/Dahua and Geovision come to mind immediately. All are available at the three distributors I frequent and one or more of the brands are on sale each month. Digital Watchdog is getting to be price competitive when their products are on sale, but they are not quite as inexpensive ($30 or so more per camera). The ADI and Tri-Ed house brands are also around the same price as Hik or lower, depending on the month. For example, a 1.3MP ADI (Hik OEM) camera cost me $100 two months ago.
I am not sure how much lower the camera prices can go for IP but if we see 2MP for under $100 any time soon, I would almost be inclined to agree with you. What I was told (second hand information, mind you), was that Hikvision's costs are around $40-$50 USD per camera, shipped (not factoring in R&D). I have no proof that this is the cost, so take it as hearsay.
Do you have any information regarding pricing in the US and how much lower the Hik cameras go for at the distributors than other brands? Without a comparison, I only have the prices I see day-to-day to go on, and I do not feel that Hik is acting predatory in our market.
"below the price charged in its home market"
This is likely not the case. Hikvision sells direct off its own website in China and you can see their prices. Dividing those prices by 6 for a rough USD conversion makes it clear that they are selling for less in China than what similar products go for in the US.
Of course, one thing that makes this hard to compare is that the selling costs are much higher in the US than in China, since in China their sales, support and marketing can be done at far lower costs than the equivalent in the US or other Western countries.
"or below its cost of production"
This one might be relevant. Later in the Wikipedia article, they phrase it as selling "at a price that does not meet its full cost of production". If it means they are selling at a loss, then this is potentially relevant.
I do not know enough about dumping laws to have an opinion yet.
"In the United States, domestic firms can file an antidumping petition"
Ask FLIR? They likely know what the cost of production is inside China, given their Lorex division and the deals / access to information they have.
From the American ADI Flyer:
Lowest priced 2.1 MP IP domes:
- Everfocus $126
- Geovision: $112
- ADI WHik Box: $79
Everfocus and Geo are selling 50% and 40%, respectively, more than OEM Hik.
And the WHik domes are IIR 100M, IP66, IK10 with 5 yr warranty.
Taxed at the border: List of products from China that are currently subject to anti-dumping duty orders.
323 total. Everything from paper clips and pencils to ironing tables and candles.
Each niche complaining about practices that sound identical to the current Hik situation.
I don't see why any Western manufacturers haven't tried getting duties on Chinese subsidized imports?
Maybe they are working on it now?
Are they dumping? Or are they just being super competitive and willing to live on skinny margins? In doing my own unprofessional teardown I don’t see a lot of stuff inside Hik and much of it appears to be commodity anyway. Makes me think the $40-$50 COG estimate may be on the high side, and if so could this portend more room at the bottom? I guess the bigger question is, given today’s commoditization for all comers and the ability of any biz to produce in China, or a lower cost alternative, exactly where is the bottom? This stream of thought leads ultimately to the question; is Hik the villain or are they simply speeding up a process that is going to happen anyway? I’m inclined to believe the latter. And to answer your question, I suspect involvement of the US Government could not happen in time nor would it be terribly effective. All bets are off of course should we get Trumped.
Hikvision has tremendous leverage and overhead absorption, if they can sell at less margin to get market share that's free trade. In reality what is happening to the CCTV market is no different than what took place in motion sensors and alarm panels 10 -15 years ago. Its called survival of the fittest. If were them I would be doing exactly the same thing.
Look at pricing coming out of Wodsee and others from China , 1080P cameras for $19. I think you should complain Hikvision has too much margin!
We have come to use Hikvision in all our designs/systems so we could be biased some. They are freakishly good and that, consistently. I believe what we're seeing is Moore law at work. Think about it this way: How different is the electronics in an IP camera from that of an smartphone? I would venture that the Smartphone has more processing power and complexity, yet we see so many of these below $100 with of course a camera capable of decent pictures to boot! Right now Amazon is selling a more than decent tablet for $49 with , of course, a camera, a very good display and 8 GB of storage .. How much more expensive an IP camera is really for a manufacturer compared to that?
The bigger question is: how we, the integrators who populate this board are going to react to the commodification of hardware? A previously faced similar by those of us with roots in IT who were selling PCs at a premium only to see the ground fall under us (although PC prices have somewhat stabilized). This race to the bottom is not driven by Hik or Dahua. It is driven by the falling price of silicon and of IT hardware. What is left for us to make money of , is integration, system design and consultation. Hardware prices will continue to decrease. I was seriously shocked to see the price of a 6 TB disk, I mean 6 TB!!! to be under $250 ... Our money is in services no longer hardware. We should make a note of that. It is where our survival lay.
Happy Holidays! People!
The thing we keep on assuming they are losing money. I don't think they are. Lately lenses have become better, DSP more powerful and cheaper. Assembly is not that expensive and software is free or so cheap as to be of no consequence in their final pricing. Meanwhile Chinese factories are producing these components they need by the millions. If you believe a $100 camera is a losing proposition, you need to see the picture taken by the $49 Amazon tablet or its screen or its Quad-core processor.. Is Amazon actually losing on this product?
While I do not claim to understand the intricacies of an IP camera, I fail to see in what ways any of these is more complicated hardware and software-wise than a tablet or a smartphone. That is the point of my argument in my previous post. Do we then automatically assume that a $49 tablet is a losing proposition? So why would a $100 camera be?
having built cameras myself and looking at the vast number of camera spammers (with really low pricing) from China there is no way they are selling below cost.
What is happening to video equipment pricing is no different than what was experienced in the motion detector( security equipment) market 10 years ago. we went from many manufactures down to a few, video will be the same its called the free market.
IPVMU Certified | 07/28/16 09:03pm
Somebody needs to define cost here. you got people arguing with each other using different definitions.
cost = the hard cost of parts
cost= the cost of parts + R&D + getting them to market + supporting them+replacing them when they fail under warranty.