Should IPVM Post Only MSRP Pricing?

JH
John Honovich
Dec 01, 2016
IPVM

This was raised in Down to $50 IP Cameras From Honeywell

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 01, 2016
IPVM

I did this to answer a member's request and happy to discuss.

But we will continue to post 'real' pricing to support our analysis of trends and comparisons of products.

One, there is so much 'real' / online pricing widely available that MSRP is fiction. Two, we need to understand actual pricing because it is key to understand where the market is going and which products provide more value.

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KL
Keefe Lovgren
Dec 01, 2016
IPVMU Certified

John, please define "real" pricing for me. Is it dealer cost or customer cost?

JH
John Honovich
Dec 01, 2016
IPVM

Real primarily means to me publicly available pricing, e.g., on the Internet / online.

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Ross Vander Klok
Dec 01, 2016
IPVMU Certified

This is beyond ridiculous! Of course you should. If anyone on IPVM thinks there are end users on IPVM that don't know how to get real prices you are a sadly mistaken.
There is this thing called the "internet" with this site called "Google".... Also, Who pays MSRP for ANYTHING related to security devices, but especially cameras?

If you have clients that you are charging MSRP (or over), congratulations and you better milk them for all they are worth because those people are dinosaurs and will no longer exist very soon.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 01, 2016

So, an end-user wants to know how much we pay for the parts we sell them... should we be surprised or impressed that you are so forward thinking and transparent?

pretty sure that same statement has been said every year in every industry, by the way.

Funny, I dont see on your company site where they put out the hard costs to manufacture your chairs...

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 01, 2016
IPVM

Funny, I dont see on your company site where they put out the hard costs to manufacture your chairs...

In fairness, hard costs to manufacturer (i.e. COGS) is not the question. The question is MSRP vs street vs dealer pricing.

Herman Miller pricing is all over the Internet as well as having their own store online.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 01, 2016

but it is in question. Distributors sell to integrators, who then resell. Their SALE or DEALER or (too often) STREET price is my (and most people on here's) COGS.

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DM
David Matyas
Dec 01, 2016

Being that IPVM does not stop end users from becoming members (and I don't necessarily feel that they should) has IPVM ever thought about making it that certain Articles, or Discussions can be flagged either by IPVM or if a discussion, by the poster to be for Pro members only rather then all members?

I understand that it may limit end users from becoming a member, but it may make certain members more comfortable talking about pricing etc...

On a side but connected note, how many non "pro" members does IPVM have?

JH
John Honovich
Dec 01, 2016
IPVM

David, all members are 'Pro' members. I actually might remove that terminology because it does cause some confusion (i.e., who is a Pro vs non Pro member).

But one think we won't ever do is block end users from certain topics.

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DM
David Matyas
Dec 01, 2016

Thats the reason why I didnt want to use the word "Pro" but I was figured most would understand what I am saying.

I am split regarding this. On one hand I am very into making knowledge open for all and making it easier to find out info. I made use of it many times myself when I was trying to do repairs around my house.

On the other hand, I can see where a Pro (someone in the business) would want to be able to discuss some aspects with other Pro's without worrying that an end user who knows how to use google can find his own words and use it against him.

JH
John Honovich
Dec 01, 2016
IPVM

Pro (someone in the business) would want to be able to discuss some aspects with other Pro's without worrying that an end user who knows how to use google can find his own words and use it against him.

Agree, ironically integrators overall are far more afraid of their manufacturer partners seeing their posts on IPVM.

Of course, that is one of the main reasons why we built the undisclosed commenting feature, so people in this small industry could share information more confidently.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 01, 2016

If you are really a fan, why not simply ask me why I made it public? Why assume the worst motivation?

Can you expand on this? This idea is foreign to me.

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Sean Nelson
Dec 01, 2016
Nelly's Security

I dont think you should put pricing of flyers, email blasters, price lists, that werent mean to be publically displayed on IPVM at all. If a particular ad was only supposed to go to a certain customer group, it should not be posted publically. I think this is borderline un-ethical. Would be similar to other sites copying and pasting information from this site in which only "logged in" were meant to see only to be copied and pasted to another site.

If any pricing info is publically displayed on the web or whatever without any signup info, then post away

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 01, 2016
IPVM

If a particular ad was only supposed to go to a certain customer group, it should not be posted publically. I think this is borderline un-ethical.

Disagree. This is whole essence of journalism / news reporting. We don't try to resell or publish whole price lists. We selectively take noteworthy pricing and other information, providing analysis of it.

Would be similar to other sites copying and pasting information from this site in which only "logged in" were meant to see only to be copied and pasted to another site.

This is covered under 'fair use'. If you copy someone's book or report, then it's a violation. If you excerpt something and than provide new information, analysis, commentary, it is legal and ethical.

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Sean Nelson
Dec 01, 2016
Nelly's Security

Yeah but isnt this a gray area? You posted the link to the ADI ad that was obviously only marketed to dealer customers. No-one would have gotten that ad unless "Signed Up" as a dealer.

What would be the difference of someone copying word for word an article on IPVM that only members could see, and posting it on their site, and then offering analysis of it?

As far as legality: Im sure the first example is not illegal and the 2nd example is.

What I am asking though is it ethical? I understand journalism should be tough and forthcoming, but this was kind of secret info only meant for dealers eyes. This is kind of a jab below the belt to ADI. What ADI should have done was to make some sort of NDA.

Its really not a big deal. This is a very small example and I could care less about ADI's feelings, but just thinking about puting my self in their shoes. We send out email blasters to dealer customers that our retail customers arent supposed to see. If that email blaster was seen by several of our retail customers, we would be in a pickle by being asked to price match to customers on stuff that wasnt even meant to be marketed to them.

JH
John Honovich
Dec 01, 2016
IPVM

You posted the link to the ADI ad that was obviously only marketed to dealer customers.

They sent it out to non-dealers, so it obviously was not only marketed to dealer customers.

No-one would have gotten that ad unless "Signed Up" as a dealer.

Again, no. I assure you non-ADI dealers got the email directly.

And as for posting a link, it is a link on the Internet. If ADI wanted to restrict it to dealers, they could have easily require signing in to one's ADI account. But they didn't.

What would be the difference of someone copying word for word an article on IPVM that only members could see, and posting it on their site, and then offering analysis of it?

Copying any article word for word is not fair use. But copying excerpts, which is what I did and providing commentary is fair use.

For example, you can write an article on your site excerpting a paragraph from IPVM and commenting on it. That would be fair use. Using it for commercial purposes (like buy X because IPVM said so) would not because that is covered under the right of publicity.

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Sean Nelson
Dec 01, 2016
Nelly's Security

Well if non-dealers could have had easy access to that then I see no ill will here.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 01, 2016

I think this is perfectly reasonable, within the confines of the member areas.

DM
David Matyas
Dec 01, 2016

In this case it was targeted to ADI customers only. However, I guess ADI has bad IT security practices and allows everyone with a link to view it. So I believe it should not be posted.

While I do agree that anyone with good google-fu can find general pricing, the guidelines should be based off whether the advertised price is easily available to the public.

On the other hand, if a member posts a question for a price on a particular item, I see nothing wrong with other members responding.

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 01, 2016
IPVM

I guess ADI has bad IT security practices and allows everyone with a link to view it

To be clear, ADI sent this out to non-dealers as well.

That said, we report things that are newsworthy and we get confidential information all the time. For example, us reporting on Genetec expelling Hikvision. Genetec did not tell us this. We found out about it through other sources. Just because Genetec or Axis or Hikvision or ADI does not want us to know something it is not going to stop us from reporting on true events.

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DM
David Matyas
Dec 01, 2016

If they did send it out to everyone then they should be ashamed of that and I then while I may not want it posted, I see no issue with it.

I definitely agree news should be posted whether they want you to know it or not. I think for example in this case, most members would be okay with a news post saying that ADI is now selling 1.3mp or even 3mp cameras for about $50 and going through all the details like your article does, but with leaving out the screenshot of the flyer or at least blocking out the model number. That way an end user cant stumble onto the article and be able to compare model to model.

That being said, as a general rule we don't mark up equipment (unless it is dealer only equipment) and we make our profit on the labor only.

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UD
Undisclosed Distributor #2
Dec 01, 2016

If available publically, regardless of how and where, it is fair game. Dealers should be critical of ADI for their practices, not IPVM.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 01, 2016

The two are not mutually exclusive.

But Yes, anyone buying from ADI should be bringing this up to the local branch manager...

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