Subscriber Discussion

Should I Fire This Tech?

U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 29, 2017

This is an installation at a 'gentleman's club' that had to be finished before the grand opening. The day of the grand opening, one of our senior techs calls in sick, making the job much harder / difficult. That night, he shows up at the grand opening (we find out later). He said he felt better later in the day.

So what should be done?

(1)
JH
Jay Hobdy
Jun 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

How long has this tech been with you? Is this something he could normally do?

 

I personally suffer from migraines so its entirely possible for me to wake up with a migraine, go back to sleep and be 100% a few hours hours later.

 

But I think only you know the tech well enough to warrant firing.

Seperation letter - reason for seperation :IPVM members voted to terminate 

 

 

 

(1)
(13)
U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 29, 2017

Tech has a history of being lazy and unmotivated but friendly and liked by other techs.

(1)
Avatar
Kenneth McDowell
Jun 29, 2017

It is often very difficult to replace resources of any kind, however, if you are saying this tech has a pattern of being lazy, then his utilization is low; if he is unmotivated then his quality output comes into question.  Therefore, if you continue to let mediocre performance from a resource , then maybe you should look for a job not managing people. 

However, you decide to stay, no employee should be surprised when they are terminated for failing to meet the expected performance criteria at work.  But keeping an employee around because he’s liked...well is not exactly performance based.

(2)
(1)
(1)
U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 29, 2017

Kenneth! thanks

"But keeping an employee around because he’s liked...well is not exactly performance based."

Actually it is the opposite. I don't want to keep him around because he's liked but the peers and his direct manager like him so they defend him.

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Jul 01, 2017

Therefore, if you continue to let mediocre performance from a resource , then maybe you should look for a job not managing people

And this is exactly why I hired someone to run my install department even though we are not yet big enough to really justify the expense. Not everyone can manage people.

I'll say that my new install dept lead would fire this guy based on the whole of what you've said, where I, as a terrible people manager, would have found a new less critical place for him to continue to damage my business.

(2)
(6)
SB
Steven Burman
Jul 03, 2017

Your self-awareness of your faults and willingness to admit them on this forum says a lot about your character. I'm much the same, I know where my weaknesses are, and one of them is that I like to be everybody's buddy. So I do it Navy style. I'm the skipper and nice to everybody, and I have an "XO" who is a complete hard-a**.

(1)
(2)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Jun 30, 2017

Fire him because he's lazy and unmotivated.

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #17
Dec 26, 2017

Agreed. Office dynamics should never interfere with your bottom line, period.

U
Undisclosed #13
Dec 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I personally suffer from migraines so its entirely possible for me to wake up with a migraine, go back to sleep and be 100% a few hours hours later.

But I think only you know the tech well enough to warrant firing.

In other words, he’s not worth the headache?

(1)
Avatar
Ethan Ace
Jun 29, 2017

I try to live by how my mom taught me (and by taught I mean forced) when taking a day off grade school: if you're too sick to go to school, you're too sick to go out that night.

He may have been better by then, but it's just not wise or respectful. 

Whether he should be fired is another question. I don't think one incident like this is enough to fire over, but if it's a pattern, sure.

(15)
Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Jun 30, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

We aren't 8 anymore Ethan. To a great extent, what a tech does on his own time is his business and not any of the OP's business.

That said, if he missed work for reasons other than his excuse, then he could rightfully be terminated, IMO. Deception is a dark area that I find inexcusable. 

(4)
(4)
(4)
U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 30, 2017

To a great extent, what a tech does on his own time is his business and not any of the OP's business.

It's not where he went to, it was that he went to the 'job site' for a party the same night he called in too sick to go to the job site.

(7)
U
Undisclosed #5
Jul 01, 2017

Have you asked the techs manager about what went down that day?  I think this would be the first person I would talk to about it.

While it seems obvious (to me at least) that the employee should've known better than to show up at the party, it appears that this was not the case for this tech.

What does the manager think about the events of that day?  If the manager has no beef with it, then maybe your problem lies deeper than the actions/attitude of your techs.

 

U
Undisclosed #1
Jul 01, 2017

What does the manager think about the events of that day? If the manager has no beef with it, then maybe your problem lies deeper than the actions/attitude of your techs.

Good point. His manager is buddies with that tech and has low motivation as well. I inherited them.

Avatar
Meghan Uhl
Jul 03, 2017

Sounds like maybe you need to fire 2 people!?!?  Or, use this as a learning moment for the unmotivated manage. Discuss lack of motivation in general and how it manifested with this tech in particular then task the manager with creating a program/policy/procedure/event (all of the above) that creates motivation in his area of responsibility.  

 

(2)
(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jun 30, 2017

True, but he did add insult to injury with his behavior.  For that reason alone I would have a hard time justifying retaining this employee.  Someone being sick happens but then reaping the rewards of the remaining team members who did work will damage morale.

(4)
(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #18
Dec 27, 2017

I get your sentiment, and agree to a certain extent, but what reward is he reaping from a camera install by going to a "Gentlemen's Club"? It's not like they built the ladies dancing, right? All things being equal, whether there were cameras or not, it would still be the same experience.

JH
Jay Hobdy
Jul 01, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I think some form of suspension or reprimand is in order, if you do not fire him.

 

Employees will start to think it is OK to be lazy, etc

(4)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Jul 01, 2017

Many years ago I managed a group of installers and service techs.  I had one that routinely showed up late.  He was also a friend I would ski with and was recently married.

He was warned multiple times by me.  The final warning was "Show up late again and your final check will be ready".  A week later....10 minutes late.  He was surprised, check ready.

Moral picked up, in install and sales.

Years later I ran into him at a supply house and heard him having the same conversation with his employee.  He apologized, we are friends again. 

(1)
(3)
(2)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Jul 03, 2017

I had an employee like this once.  (Lazy, but well liked by his peers)  I spent 3 years trying to change him, without any luck.   Eventually, I gave up and fired him.   Surprisingly, several of his peers came to me afterwards and thanked me for finally firing him.  They liked him personally, but had grown tired of carrying him. 

(4)
(3)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #15
Jul 11, 2017

Amen.  I've finally given up on training them to change and believing they can.  A tech either gets it or doesn't.  If he does, you give him guidance and training to make him better.  If he doesn't, you'll be dragging a dead or dying horse the entire time they are there. 

(2)
KK
Kurt Kottkamp
Dec 26, 2017

One of my rules of managing people (co-opted from old Vikings Coach Dennis Green's post game interview): When someone shows you who they are; believe them!

 

They'll generally never be who you want them to be, or what they are capable of, no matter how badly you want that for them. Change has to come from within them, and people rarely change!

 

Your employee is who they show you they are!

(1)
U
Undisclosed #5
Dec 26, 2017

First, I love that Dallas Green clip - it shows just how frustrating being a coach can be. 

"They'll generally never be who you want them to be, or what they are capable of, no matter how badly you want that for them."

This may be true to some extent, but I believe that a coach/manager/boss should try their best to help anyway.  It's easier to just write someone off if you don't do your best to help them grow.  This also makes it easier on them to not bother trying to grow if they think the coach/manager/boss doesn't really care about them.

"Change has to come from within them, and people rarely change!"

The first part of that sentence is stone cold truth - the second is just perspective.  In my experience people can change if properly motivated to do so.

Will most?  Maybe not.

Will some?  I believe so - if I do my best to assist them.

Can it be frustrating as shit?  Without question.

(3)
Avatar
Mark Jones
Jul 03, 2017

If he adds value to your organization, retain him.  If not, you know what to do.  Regardless of skill, some are not worth the headaches and drama.  

(5)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #8
Jul 03, 2017

Could you cut this technicians hours for 2 weeks? Or maybe deny them from getting overtime for 2 months? If you make the tech feel the hurt where you feel it, he'll either quit over losing pay, or shape up for at least a while.

For the other techs who are friendly with him, you look reasonable for not firing the guy go during a really busy period (you mentioned scrambling to get this job completed without the lazy tech), but still showing them there are consequences. 

(1)
(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Jul 03, 2017

I would write him up with clear detail that should be very serious with your disappointment with his credibility. In this write-up include verbiage that reflects progressive discipline like this may lead to suspension or termination. Review his overall attendance with this write-up and review him again in 30 days.

I would pay close attention to his work performance following this progressive discipline step.

I would not fire him. Be sure he understands that this is documented...

(1)
GM
Gordon McFarland
Jul 03, 2017
Bowler Pons Solutions Consultants

How badly is he poisoning the attitude of the other technicians?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jul 03, 2017

I dont suppose the OP has spoken with the tech about his "history of being lazy and unmotivated"? You have to ask yourself if you have effectively set the expectation for employees work output and communicate with them when they are not meeting those expectations. If you feel you have, i would start looking for a new tech, but if you havent you really need to set the team straight. How you handle one employee impacts all employees. You will be setting precedent with your actions. Make sure it is fair. 

(1)
CH
Corbin Hambrick
Jul 03, 2017

poison...best word.

 

He is a poison and you need to deal with him.  I agree that you document with him, the incident, reference other previous incidents.  Document your disciplinary action and make sure he understands it thoroughly.

Next make sure to start noting everything you'll need to account for if he is gone (company property as well as knowledge that needs to be cross trained, documented, etc.).

Help him understand that his skills are appreciated but that he needs to meet the requirements of the business you are running.

(5)
Avatar
Michael Gonzalez
Jul 03, 2017
Confidential

From a people management/HR perspective, this incident may not be enough to warrant termination, but it certainly warrants a closer eye on this guy. If you're saying this is not the first time he has done something like this, but nothing was documented in the past, then from an HR perspective this is the first time he has done something like this.

Progressive disciplinary action should always be applied in cases like this. First one is a verbal warning (documented somewhere for future reference), the next time is a written warning, and the next time is a suspension followed by termination. Of course, you can always skip the verbal or written warnings if the first offense was bad enough to warrant it; people shouldn't get a verbal warning for crashing a truck and subsequently failing a urinalysis, for example.

The more documentation you have, the less likely you will end up in court, and the less likely you'll find yourself in a position where you have to pay for his unemployment check. Best bet is to document this and start cutting back his hours until he gets right, or gets gone. Either way you win, you can't have people like this in positions of trust damaging your name and reputation in this business, period.

(3)
(1)
U
Undisclosed #11
Jul 03, 2017

This is a 'Dear Abby' type of question. Meaning formed with minimal data and framed to lead the discussion in a biased direction.

Formed: No mention of company policy/procedures upfront.
Biased: Should I fire him. See Formed.

A good discussion none the less.

AS to being sick. I worked for a large Corporation in the early sixty's.
Their policy was that if you were sick you must be sick at home AND have a note from a doctor (read an extra cost) was required when returning to work.

Think about that.

One: You can't be at home AND the doctors Office and meet that policy is sick one day.
Two: I didn't need (and pay) a Dr. (assuming I had one) to tell me I was sick.
Three: Being sick and seeing a Dr. (to get a note) is rarely a one day event. So more often then not it was two days production lost.
Four: My Philosophy is; I can be sick anywhere I choose. Meaning, I rarely got sick at home! So I was sick 'in place' and drove home when well.

(1)
CH
Corbin Hambrick
Jul 04, 2017

...except he's not asking some generic writer he's asking for the input from his peers.

If we think we need more info to answer the question I'm sure he'll provide more info.

However you bring up a good point.  If you didn't have a policy in place (written or not) then it might be extremely frustrating but you can't necessarily expect him to have or use common sense or propriety.

(1)
U
Undisclosed #1
Jul 04, 2017

If you didn't have a policy in place (written or not) then it might be extremely frustrating but you can't necessarily expect him to have or use common sense or propriety.

There is no policy in place. On the other, at will employment...

Does anyone have a policy that says you cannot go out to a job site for a party the same night you call in sick for that job? It's such a strange edge case, what would the policy be?

U
Undisclosed #5
Jul 04, 2017

"Does anyone have a policy that says you cannot go out to a job site for a party the same night you call in sick for that job?"

If this type of thing were ever to be codified in any employee handbook, I think the proper term for such a thing should be the 'you gotta be shittin' me' clause.

Any violations of such a clause would be grounds for immediate dismissal.

(7)
U
Undisclosed #13
Jul 06, 2017
IPVMU Certified

If this type of thing were ever to be codified in any employee handbook, I think the proper term for such a thing should be the 'you gotta be shittin' me' clause.

 

Perhaps a limited incident immunity could be offered as an employment perk to draw technically sound migraine suffering party animals.

U
Undisclosed #12
Jul 04, 2017

Yes, every time this thread gets bumped...Fire him!

U
Undisclosed #13
Jul 05, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Fire him, but have fun with it like this:

Hey [senior tech name], there was an incident on opening night at the [gentlemens club name], but they're having trouble pulling the footage.  Can you do an export of camera #4 from 1:55 AM to 2:00 AM and put it on a thumb drive?

Oh, and name the file reason-for-termination.mp4. Thanks!

 

 

 

(5)
TC
Trisha (Chris' wife) Dearing
Jul 05, 2017
IPVMU Certified

This is an installation at a 'gentleman's club' that had to be finished before the grand opening.

Perhaps he was just following up - by making sure that the T&A was in order ;)

(4)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #14
Jul 06, 2017

My thoughts are that this same tech did not want to be seen as the guy putting in the security system because he wants to frequent the place. 

I would put him on notice that if this type of behavior occurs again, it will require a doctor's excuse to return to work. 

I question why you keep someone that is lazy around to begin with.  You didn't  hire him to make friends with the other techs.  And, it takes teamwork to get the job done sometimes... if he isn't dependable, then I don't need him.

(1)
U
Undisclosed #1
Jul 06, 2017

You didn't hire him to make friends with the other techs.

I did not hire him. I inherited him and a few other lazy techs. New hires have been hungrier, more professional, etc. but the existing people have, by definition, the most seniority, knowledge of large, legacy accounts and good will with the owner. Ergo the problem.

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #14
Jul 06, 2017

Start sending the new guys out with the old ones to learn the "legacy" ropes as part of the "cross training". That way its not resting on the one shoulder that you absolutely cannot fire because they hold all the knowledge. Time to make some changes if you want a better working group of people.

(1)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #16
Jul 11, 2017

There's been a lot of good feedback here.  I would look at this as a good opportunity to develop/implement processes, performance milestones and policies to set expectation, if you don't already have in place.  Then you'll have to apply these policies evenly across your entire team.  Then document, document, document.  This will take a little time.

Try not to focus on this one tech's performance exclusively.  That will leave you open to litigation, i.e. wrongful termination, discrimination and at very least unemployment benefits.  Even in "At Will" employment states, doesn't stop disgruntled ex-employees from filing lawsuits but with documented misconduct or poor performance, lawyers are less likely to take cases.  All this may sound like a lot of work or pain in the rear, but is very necessary for our very litigious culture.  If this tech isn't a good performer, he'll torpedo himself soon enough.

(3)
MS
Mark Sauer
Jul 12, 2017

If you are asking others if you should fire him, I believe you are asking the wrong people. I think you should ask the employee. There may be a valid reason. There may not. The employee should have enough character to acknowledge his actions and come up with a reasonable plan. If the employee is not willing or cannot make it work, then bye bye. The employee is very important but must be part of the solution, not the problem.

U
Undisclosed #13
Jul 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

There may be a valid reason.

Name one.

U
Undisclosed #5
Jul 12, 2017

His sister works for the customer and he manages her career.

(2)
U
Undisclosed #13
Jul 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

At least he's got something to fall back on.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Jul 12, 2017

His brother owns the place and his referral is why they got the job.  His brother invited him to the opening. 

U
Undisclosed #13
Jul 13, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Then just to be sure he should try:

Boss: How's your brother doing?
Tech: I don't have a brother.
Boss: Sorry, I meant your sister.
Tech: Actually I'm an only child.
Boss: In that case you're fired.

(1)
Avatar
Meghan Uhl
Jul 12, 2017

Maybe he had a morning bug, felt better later and thought his employer would appreciate him at least showing up for the event to show his support of the customer and unity with the company.  Could have been a legitimate way to think of it and just a misunderstanding between him and his boss?

 

(1)
Avatar
Sean Nelson
Dec 26, 2017
Nelly's Security

I didn't read thru all of the comments but this is an easy one for me. He is gone.  

JH
Jay Hobdy
Dec 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Since this was brought back up, what was the outcome?

U
Undisclosed #1
Dec 26, 2017

The tech is still there. It was not worth the political battle / ill will to fire him. Not happy about it, it certainly reflects other possibly bigger issues but that's where it is.

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #17
Dec 26, 2017

it certainly reflects other possibly bigger issues but that's where it is.

FIFY.

Sad for you that you're in this situation, more so that you feel you can't do anything about it. You should never let your employees run your company.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #17
Dec 26, 2017

Maybe you could do what one of my old bosses did to a tech who was lazy, unmotivated, did substandard work, but was otherwise reasonably liked.

Promote him to supervisor!

 

 

(I quit shortly thereafter)

(1)
U
Undisclosed #13
Dec 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Promote him to supervisor!

Up or out...

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #15
Dec 26, 2017

The government way....

JH
Jay Hobdy
Dec 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I just hope you have figured a way to start migrating fresh recruits in so you don't feel like a hostage in your own company....

 

 

(2)
New discussion

Ask questions and get answers to your physical security questions from IPVM team members and fellow subscribers.

Newest discussions