(4) 4K Cameras Via Wireless - What Should I Use?

I have a site that cannot be trenched. I have some line of sight, but it is limited to one location. I would like to run all of my camera wires to one location and wireless all of them over to the headend. Now is the tricky part. I would like to use 4K cameras (4 of them). That is a lot of bandwidth for one link. Any suggestions? I have called Fluid Mesh, but they must be pretty busy over there. Thank you all in advance.


Which 4K camera model? At which frame rate? What distance? Roughly how much are you willing to spend? Hundreds? A thousand? $5,000+?

Thank you John. Distance is no more than 50 yards. But there is a lake in between the cameras and the boat house, so trenching will not be an option. I do have a space between trees that offers line of sight and I have power at both ends. Hikvision DS-2CD4A85F-IZ(H)(S) at 10 frames/second max. But there are 4 of them, so that's 40 frames/sec.

2 Ubiquiti NSM5 units (US Version). If they don't work I'll buy them from you. As a matter of fact - we can set them up and send them to you. If they don't work send them back. They are under $90 each. So $180 total. Including shipping.

Josh is spot on here. We have used the same exact units to connect 10 x 3MP/10FPS/4Mbps plus 4 x D1/10FPS/1Mbps over a single link with plenty of room to spare. We used two NSM5 LOCO's in a PtP link with trees in the way over a 300' span. It's been running non stop for nearly 3 years without a single interruption.

I'm not sure Mark wanted to spend that little... ;)

I don't think hundreds will do it. Thousands is more likely.

First you must know what your total bandwidth is before you can pick wireless solution. Fluidmesh is a good product and will work well but again bandwidth is key. Ubnt also is a good option.

Other question is are you going to connect all the cameras to a switch and use a PTP like or will you have to use wireless APs PTMP at each camera.

The bandwidth calculations work out to be 180mbs per camera. If I round up, that is 200mbs. I don't find a "4 channel unit" is my problem. I would like to home run all of the video back to one transmitter and send it over to the boathouse to a receiver.

180 Mbps per camera (you wrote 180mbs, but I'm pretty sure that mbs is a typo)? Are these 4K or 40K cameras? There is no way your camera is going to be pushing 180 Mbps.

What bandwidth caluator are you using? In our testing various 4k cameras 10-30Mbps is normal. Say you cap the cameras at 20Mbps you are looking at 80 Mbps so a minimun bandwidth link speed would be 100Mbps.

180k. Sorry. Fat fingered it.

Now you're too low, way too low.

Mark, you need to get the right bandwidth consumption first. At 8.3MP / 10fps, I am betting you are closer to 10Mb/s bandwidth per camera, or 40Mb/s total.

Given the short range and the moderate bandwidth requirement, I think you will be ok with conventional Ubiquiti or Fluidmesh offerings.

I have a similar situation I am working on right now at my dads house. He’s got a new building across the street so running cable would be very expensive. We’re installing the 6 cameras out there on their own NVR (Hik doesn’t have any small 4K NVRs right now) and then sending the recorder wirelessly back to the house with Ubiquiti Nanostation (not enough bandwidth for you). My fear with sending video wirelessly for recording is that if theres an interruption in wireless signal you can lose footage. Putting the NVR out there ensures that the video is stable and the wireless link is only for remote viewing. If you’re willing, spend the extra cash and pickup a second 4K nvr or you should consider using Hiks 6MP cameras that will record on any of their 4 channel NVRs.

Right now I have a dead camera on my hands. Bandwith is zero.

May be you can use 2 Ubiquiti links

and divide your bandwidth

Mark,

this is Cosimo Malesci, I am Fluidmesh VP of Sales and Co-Founder. Apologies for being hard to getting in touch with. Not sure what happened. I will give you a call shortly. Just in case, feel free to call my cellphone as well. Number is (617) 460-6014.

Thank you and talk soon,

Cosimo

Thanks, Cosimo. I appreciate the conversation. John is closer to right on the calculations. I just have to get the damn camera to work.

Looks like a bridge from a number of people will work fine, Ubiquiti, EnGenius, Fluidmesh etc.

Shouldn't be a big deal for the bandwidth of only four cameras.

I'd use the nanobeams from UBNT as they will push 300Mb/s over the 100Mb/s of the Nanostations - Fluidmesh is overkill for a ptp bridge in my opinion. But why 4K? What's the application a boat yard?

The bandwidth measures out at about 8Mb/s (we finally got it up and running). With 4 cameras per marina slip that is roughly 32 per boat slip. I didn't want to continue to use bandwidth calculators. I wanted to actually measure it. I will likely use UBQTY, but I don't like some of the remarks I read on this site about their lack of support. No one wants that - reference the remarks by the prosumer in a different thread.

The factory engineer came by Friday (he happens to live nearby and is pretty sharp) to help with the setup of the 4k. It is an outstanding picture, but does not have the light level that will be necessary even though it has infrared built in. There are literally no lights on these boat slips. What we are looking to detect are boats coming from public places on the lake to these private slips. Perpetrators steal whatever is not locked up or nailed down. If I could have used 4k, we could have had incredible pix/ft well out into the lake, before they even approached the docks. We did demo some very nice infrared cameras that have a 50 meter range (far enough away we can see thieves and track them as they approach) and the camera has facial recognition and a few other analytics built in). They are 2mp and offer a good picture 75' away, just not as good as 4k. The 2mp are optimized for night time performance. I may recommend white lights too. That alone may help slow this down.

This is a lake application, not a beach or ocean. There are trees. Even with that, we have some line of sight; but we are opting to use 900Mhrtz to be safe (the wireless distance is no more than 200').

By the way, if you have never actually tested 4K yourself, please do so. It is a marvelous picture and offers incredible zoom factor on playback before pixelizaton kicks in, but it requires a hefty microprocessor. The average PC will have significant latency.

Another reason to scale back is we can use SD cards in the cameras for backup recording. With 4k, that is almost useless even if it were possible. There would be too much data per camera to be of any real use.

If you want support and can keep the bandwidth below 50Mbps the Fluidmesh Pointe as a great option at a good price point. We have been depolying and testing numous 4K cameras for the last couple of months. Which VMS are you planing on using and have to tried to play multible camera streams at the same time in your client?

Hi Mark This is Alex Doorduyn from Siklu. Our radios support 1Gbps so throughput is not an issue if you require capacity. Our EH600T is ideal as it has a very small form factor (6"x6") and uses 60GHz frequency which is license free and operates in the totally uncongested and interference free band. It has a range of 1,500-2,000 ft with a very narrow beam angle so no issues with shooting over water or trees. If this is of interest please drop me an email Alex.d@siklu.com or give me a call 323-217-8199. Alex

Alex, you left out the price. Why don't you tell him much more expensive your equipment is compared to the Ubiqiuti models being discussed?

Reference: Siklu Wireless Video Surveillance Examined

Hi John I don't normally lead with price but since you asked the MSRP for a 1Gbps link is $6,000. Thanks Alex Siklu

I am sure you don't because a lot of prospects would reject Siklu immediately once they hear the price but if you are going to promote your offering on IPVM, price is a very relevant piece of information.

Hi John We are by far the best value millimeter wave radio on the market today and if you require the capacity and a 60GHz frequency it is a good fit. Alex Siklu

"by far the best value millimeter wave radio"

That's like saying you are the least expensive caviar. You'd be better off trying to make a convincing case why all the people here recommending Ubiquiti or Fluidmesh are wrong. Mark wants the 'best value' solution, not the 'best value millimeter wave radio'.

Hi John

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to make my case.

Millimeter wave wireless technology is a fairly new technology to the security industry. Previously this technology was cost prohibitive - a single link would cost around $30,000 due to the high cost of manufacture. Siklu entered the millimeter wave industry in 2011 with an all-silicon based design and as a result, a significantly lower cost and price point. We soon became global leaders in this space and have started introducing this technology into new markets, such as security.

The primary benefits of Siklu's technology to the security market include:-

1. Capacity - our radios support 1Gbps throughput out-of-the-box making them ideal for multiple megapixel cameras wit high frame rates. No more having to throttle back resolution or frame rate to send the data over a narrow wireless pipe.

2. Frequency - millimeter wave radios operate in the uncongested and interference free 60, 70/80GHz bands. These bands are totally uncongested even in dense urban areas so are great where there is interference or potential interference in the future, a common problem with sub-6GHz bands in urban areas. This greatly increases the reliability of the wireless network and significantly reduces truck rolls to “fix” connectivity issues.

3. Latency – with a latency as low as 250 microseconds, far lower than sub-6GHz radios, your client’s video will be in real-time with no delays when using PTZ cameras.

4. Small form factor - Siklu radios are the smallest on the market (6”x6” diameter including the antenna) and are ideal for edge deployment where a small footprint is important.

5. Ease of installation - due to the frequency, form factor and narrow beam angle (less than 2.5 deg.), design and installation is greatly simplified. No spectral analysis is required on site. All that is required is confirmation of direct line of site and distance. This reduces the total cost of deployment.

6. Reliability - Siklu radios have a MTBF (mean time between failure) of >70 years making them the most reliable radios in the industry.

I am not saying we are suitable for each and every application. However, where the above factors are important then we are a good option.

Alex

Director of Business Development & Sales for Security & Surveillance, Siklu

Alex, you did not even attempt to make a real case. You have a real prospect here (Mark) with a real application but instead of tailoring your case to his needs, you just gave the vanilla marketing pitch.

Hi John

Mark's primary concern appears to be around throughput which I addressed. Our EH600T radio provides 1Gbps half duplex throughput (either 500Mbps in each direction or 750Mbps in one direction and 250Mbps in the other direction). Since I do not know the details of the application I do not know if any of our other benefits are relevant but I wanted to make a case for them in case they are. So as a minimum, we offer the capacity he is looking for if none of our other benefits are relevant to this application.

Thanks

Alex (Siklu)

Alex,

Don't throw out your stock marketing pitch again. Instead of recognizing your error, you are content to stick the course.

"Since I do not know the details of the application"

Why don't you ask for more information? How do you even know if your product is applicable? You figured, "Hey, I'll just tell them to use my product. Let IPVM and the people on the site figure it out. I win. They lose."

In the future, make a clear case related strictly to what was asked (no canned marketing), ask for more information before pitching or refrain from posting.

So, out of curiosity, how sensitive are your radios to trees and other minor obstacles to line of sight?

Hi Jon

Millimeter wave wireless requires clear line of site and cannot transmit through trees or any other obstacles. However, since our beam angles are very narrow (2.5 degrees in the case of the EH600T; as low as 0.5 degrees in our longer range radios) we do not suffer from the fresnel zone effect like sub 6GHz radios. To give you an example, our EH600T radio has a fresnel zone (or beam width) of up to 5ft over a 1/3rd of a mile. A sub 6GHz radio will have a beam wide of approximately 18ft at the same distance since their beam angle is 10 degrees.

With trees in the line of site we would either shoot over the tree line or (in the case of the EH600T which has a very small form factor) under the tree line.

Let me know if this answers your question or if you would like further explanation.

Thanks

Alex (Siklu)

Alex, I see this full-link 70Ghz kit available on the web for ~$3700. Which is a good deal off your $6,000 MSRP.

Is this 1200-TL etherhaul e-band package an example of what you were referring to, and can one expect better pricing as a dealer?

This is a different product from the EH600T.

The EH1200TL is a 70GHz radio which requires an FCC license (cost $75 for 10 years). It is also limited to 700Mbps. It is more of a backhaul radio as opposed to an Edge-based radio like the EH600T and needs to be installed on a stable platform like a tower or building as opposed to street furniture as is the case with the EH600T. It has a range of approximately 1 mile with a 1' antenna or 2 miles with a 2' antenna.

The MSRP on the EH1200TL-kit-1' (1' dia. antenna) is $4500 so you probably saw a discounted price.

Dealer pricing is available to authorized dealers - please contact me (alex.d@siklu.com). We only sell through distribution and I can also give you a list of our distributors.

For this application the EH600T is probably more suitable but until I have more information I cannot say.

Alex (Siklu)

Another reason to scale back is we can use SD cards in the cameras for backup recording. With 4k, that is almost useless even if it were possible. There would be too much data per camera to be of any real use.

Why is it not possible? Don't they take 128GB cards?

Even at 10mb/s that will give you more than a days worth of footage, which is sometimes all you need if you discover a VMS problem the day following an incident.

Jumping in a bit late, but I will also add a vote for a UBNT solution. We have been deploying (solar) wireless system for the past 6 years and have tried most of the brands mentioned in this thread (except for Siklu) and many others. Bottom line, over the past 2 years we have standardized to UBNT's product line, because you simply cannot beat the cost/performance ratio they offer, especially for these types of appliactions where the wireless is simply your transport means (your cable). If we are talking mesh, there are specialists in the area (Fluidmesh and Firetide are the stand outs in my opinion), but for a simple PtP or PtMP like what you needs are, you can't go wrong at a fraction of the cost of the competitiors.

Regarding support, it can be spotty although it has definitely gotten better, but honsetly I have not had a need to contact support because they just work. We pair them up before hand and deploy them, as simple as that (as Joshua suggested above). If you are going for 900MHz, look at the LocoM9 (150Mbps). With 32Mbps you will not have any problems. We have used them on links at around 1Km with no problems (advertised to 10Km, but we have not tested them at that distance). As a matter of fact we use them a lot on our mobile platform as during quick deployment we are not always able to avoid trees or structures.

I don't work for UBNT and I gain nothing from promoting their products. Their margins suck, but I make my money elsewhere. Honestly I would hate to be in the wireless business as a hardware manufacturer (other than UBNT) because I have yet to see an argument convincing enough for me to switch back over to another brand. Their product offering is that broad and solid and has worked very well for us (even in networks of over 100 cameras, of which 90+ are on wireless links).

Hope that helps, good luck!

Brian Leander

Thanks Brian and to everyone else. I have decided against the 4K camera; There is just not enough light even with infrared. My goal was to install 4 cameras and use one wireless unit. Is there a 4 port unit that can wireless all 4 cameras with one antenna without using a switch or router at the camera end?? That is yet another issue. Multi-channel. This is a boat marina, low profile. All those antennas would raise the profile (the look and feel of the marina) well above what I wanted. Thanks,

If you go the UBNT route look at the Toughswitch PRO to connect all your cameras to your wireless AP. It can power your cameras (48V) and power your access point (24) with a very clean install.

Also intresting that you say there isn't enough light for the Hikvision DS-2CD4A85F-IZ(H)(S). I just ordered one to test and compare to the other 4K cameras we have and see how it compares in low light.

This is the switch we have used for all of our wireless backhaul cabinets. I just logged in to check some up times and we have three that have over 440 days of uptime. They are in L-Com enclosures in pretty hot environments. Never an issue.

Yup we do the same.

Hi Mark,

Makes sense on the 4K call. I do not know of a wireless unit with 4 inputs. The Nanostation have 2 and most other models have 1 (most other manufacturers also offer 2 ports on some of their models, but never seen more). We add a small weather proof box that functions as a junction box for electrical wiring and also houses a small PoE switch for the cameras and for feeding the aggregated signal to the PtP unit. Not sure of a way around this other than by using more wireless...

Note: while typing this I saw Michael's reply and second the choice for a Toughswitch PRO (48V for cameras and 24V for UBNT gear is key as Michael mentioned). I am using a different one in this marina application (see pics), but back when we did this (4-5 years ago) UBNT did not have these switches on the market, so I had a passive PoE Injector (24V) for the UBNT radio and a standard 802.3af for the cameras (2 in this case) and for aggregating them all. Your install will be cleaner and more streamlined with the new gear that is available.

Marina Wireless 1

Marina Wireless 2

BTW Sorry for the neck-breaking images :-P Anyone know how to rotate the pictures? I tried rotating before uploading and playing with the dimensions, no luck.

Brian Leander

Thank you Brian. That is some very clean work. I appreciate the advice.

Thank you Michael. Getting off the 4K will help everyone involved. My ppf will be lower, but this is more for a night time application anyway. The crimes don't happen in the daytime. Going with a Darkfighter/Finder camera will just make everything easier on everyone involved and meet the customers expectations. They started out talking about Flir but they dropped that once they saw what thermal looks like.

I have just done job with hikvision cameras the 6 mp bullet and i have 2 cameras on one link using gnswireless point to point.I am running at 16Meg /S no issues.I have used a cheaper solution the engenius enstation 5 .These units cost like $170 for 2 dish package.

I switched from the Nanostation to the Nanobeam. Upgraded model with better CPU and more memory, plus it runs the latest Airmax software with increased throughput and performance. About the same cost as the NSM5 (we pay $80+ for the 19 dbi units).

Trying to use a 4K camera in a very low lux/light environment will never provide good results (as is the case with most if not all higher resolution cameras). It may look great in the day, but my favorite sales line is normally "bad guys come out at night". Consider deploying Nanobeam, Toughswitch (if needed), and Hikvision Darkfighter 1080n PTZ cameras. Sorry, this would not be low profile, but you may find that, in this situation, preset tours from these cameras may be adequate for what you are doing (and you will not be blind at night). I also find that the savings when going fixed cameras over HD PTZ gets used up rather quickly when you have to go back to realign/adjust the cameras (on poles??). Customers always change their minds about the views. Better to do this from your desk in an obscure mount location that may need a lift (or maybe you can not get a lift into position?).

Not sure if this is lake or coastal, but if coastal you may want to consider locating over land and not over docks/water. This will extend the useful life of cameras and radios. You will still have salt content in the air, but not to the extent when located directly over the water. Radios also get eaten up rather quickly positioned over the ocean.