Subscriber Discussion

Online Training For Tech - On Or Off Clock?

JH
Jay Hobdy
Jan 24, 2017
IPVMU Certified

We recently became certified with a VMS vendor and I would like my tech to do the online training. Specifically we have a client that is going to demo this product

 

Is this something he should be paid for?

 

It is a well known system and the way I see it, he is gaining knowledge that he can take anywhere. The more he knows, the more I can pay. So I shouldn't pay.

 

Thoughts? 

JH
John Honovich
Jan 24, 2017
IPVM

 

Good question.

Is this something he was supposed to already know on being hired? If so, than no pay.

Is this something that your company needs because no one else knows this and you need it for a customer? If so, than yes pay.

I could see it both ways. If the employee is highly motivated to advance, than learn it on your on own time, use it to be more valuable. If the company is going to make more money in the near future because the employee knows more, than volunteer to pay.

Somewhat related, employees who only learn if the company pays for them to do so are probably bad employees. Companies that force employees to learn everything on their own are probably bad companies.

(15)
(1)
KL
Keefe Lovgren
Jan 25, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Good insight John.

We have always paid our employees for training, whether it be online at the office or on the road. 

Where I struggle is if an employee has taken training or a certification course and then does not perform as if he/she has taken the course.  Do allow for continuing education in that area and continue to pay or expect them to pick up the slack and do it on their own time?

(4)
(2)
JH
John Honovich
Jan 25, 2017
IPVM

Where I struggle is if an employee has taken training or a certification course and then does not perform as if he/she has taken the course.

Well, that's a tough one!

If that employee also is generally indifferent / lazy, beyond the course problem, I'd consider termination, with the thought that it is not worth carrying someone who is not getting better.

Other thing I would consider is the course. Some courses are made for everyone to pass (e.g., easy questions, open book, unlimited time, instructor help during the test). Unless you need it for a manufacturer partner program, I would avoid those and stick with ones where passing the exam requires real studying / no faking.

(2)
(2)
Avatar
Christopher Freeman
Jan 26, 2017

There has to be a level of expectation on both sides and trust. 

You don't waste effort & expenses on non performing employees and the co. manual s should state these expectations. 

Non performing employees have to have good documentation records to terminate  legally, there is nothing worst than an employee who thinks they cannot be fired . or terminated at will. 

We have used many legal means to ensure that they quit willingly and leave quickly.

This takes time and sometimes has a price to it. 

Have to have a good standard to measure from:

performance reviews, eval's, documented history of that individual. 

Set goals for the employees to meet or achieve. 

like a apprenticeship program . A Carrot and rewards for achievement 

Training, Class, Shows are the rewards for a job well done. (not just because)

Achievers always have direction as to where they want to go and be in 10 years. 

(1)
UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Jan 25, 2017

Take a look at your attrition rate. When I was working in hi-tech, the more education the company paid for, the better chance I had in advancing within the company. For me, employer paid education was an incentive for me to stick around.  I remained an employee for that company for about 15 years. I started off as a junior sys admin and left as a senior sys admin.  Hope that helps.

(6)
(2)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jan 25, 2017

I am happy to pay for training because I find that people come back refreshed and feeling appreciated.  It's a small thing to provide, IMHO.

(5)
AH
Andrew H
Jan 25, 2017

We tend to pay for employee training whether online or classes.

(4)
Avatar
Rick Caruthers
Jan 25, 2017
Galaxy Control Systems

Speaking from the Manufacturers side, we constantly offer and encourage our technical staff to obtain higher level of certifications with the partners that we align our business such as Microsoft, VM Ware and others of that type. If the cost of the training is substantial (like MCSC or MCSE) we require the employee to sign an agreement to remain employed for a certain period or time or if they leave have the ability of the company reimbursed for its cost. This seems to work as a two way incentive, the employee has in a sense an employment contract for that period and the company enjoys having a more technically equipped staff. 

(5)
(1)
JH
John Honovich
Jan 25, 2017
IPVM
Avatar
Ross Vander Klok
Jan 25, 2017
IPVMU Certified

We pay our Officers for any approved training.  Some of the things they would like us to approve are a little ridiculous (rescue diving and bomb disposal have both been requested).  If it is of value to the department and the Officer it is worth paying for.  As someone mentioned above it can also be a good incentive to an Officer to stick around.  

Anything that we require an Officer to have (CPR/AED/HAZMAT etc) we pay for.

(1)
Avatar
Kevin Bennett
Jan 25, 2017

If this is a new product line or a change in an existing line you sell and the tech is an existing employee then I would say pay the employee during the training and cover any other costs associated with said training.

If the tech is a new hire and was hired with the knowledge they did not have the training, then I would also cover the training expenses . . . unless there was a written agreement that indicated the employee was being hired on the condition they complete the training at their own expense.

Your organization stands to gain from the new product line, so my recommendation is to consider the training an investment in your business and in your employee. 

(1)
U
Undisclosed #3
Jan 25, 2017

Is their a test or any scorable way to obtain the training? If so, you can always offer a bonus if they make above a certain grade. If they dont make that grade, then no pay. 

Or you can give them a choice, get paid hourly while taking this training. OR, you have the chance to not take the hourly, and make a better sum of money if you make above a certain grade. If they choose the hourly, then that may tell you what kind of worker they will be (someone who is looking to get by as opposed to someone who is a goal setter)

(1)
JH
Jay Hobdy
Jan 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

We are a new business but almost all my experience is with Dahua. This customer is looking at Milestone for an LPR solution at 25+ locations.

 

So it's not something he should have known coming in, and yes it is a new line for us.

 

So I will pay him for the training.  Makes sense

(2)
Avatar
Joe Mirolli
Jan 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

In terms of an employee requesting training, We pay all expenses for training, if it's a manufacturer certification we pay the time. If it's and industry certification, we pay the expenses only. Some cases we will pay time depending on if the industry certification or license is necessary or if we lost an employee or the cert has expired who previously held the cert. We also do provide industry certs both time and expenses periodically to multiple employees of our choosing interms of type of training.  

For instance we would pay our techs time and expenses for 

(1)
Avatar
Joe Mirolli
Jan 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

(Phones ugh)

...for IPVM and unrecognized industry training that we feel is valuable would be an example of employer sponsored training.

Or BICSI certification.

Any training from exacq or axis, etc would be company paid in full.

Industry recognized certifications from Cisco or infocomm,  etc would be paid as an expense only. Unless we for some reason lost our minimum required cert. You know the types of certs that people like to append their signature name with...

Electrical licenses and the required training would be paid same as above.

In the end those with certs that show the training has helped advanced their productivity and capabilities are recognized at their annual review and compensated for accordingly.

Avatar
Christopher Freeman
Jan 26, 2017

Techs on the company training should always be compensated for the company sponsored, company directed , company mandated training. 

Part of the cost of overhead. 

This is a perk that creates good will towards employees and creates team players 

Cheep o s that take advantage of thier employees always pay for it in the end. 

To create a win win for both the co. and the employee , thier has to be give and take on both ends

Eventually the employee , no matter how good , will burn out from the abuse from greedy managers and will turn on the co. , go somewhere else. 

You build the company loyalty , its not just given by one or the other parties. 

Worked with many unhappy company employees, with the worst attitudes you could imagine. 

I sensed they had no choice. and when opportunity provided they would leave with out question. 

Attitudes are fostered over time and built by managers , that is why you should cough up the training and pay for the good tech's to be trained properly . 

Like the unions it is give and take , with an expectation of effort on both sides of the fence. no one sided. 

cff/ppp

(2)
UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Jan 26, 2017

I think if the employer is requiring or telling the employee to learn said skill or get said certification, then 1000% the employee should be paid for all expenses.  No questions asked...  Anything less is unfair and unethical.  Now if the employer has an offer open to all employees in a job classification, that states if you are certified in xyz, you get paid more, then it would be up to the employee to get the certification, my caveat would be unless it is mandatory for the employee to get the certification.

I feel strongly on this as I currently don't even get paid for my current job classification, I am paid the same as incoming employees who do none of the advanced camera work I do (they do no camera work) and have none of the responsibility's I have. I have not pushed the issue, as I honestly think they don't care, and look at it as I am learning things that will look good on a resume.  I push myself to always learn more more more, even if not asked.  I love training and learning new things to do my job better or make me better at my job.

(1)
CH
Corbin Hambrick
Jan 30, 2017

...sounds like you need a new employer

(1)
Avatar
Ross Vander Klok
Jan 30, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Tony I told you to quit whining about your pay on message boards!  ;-)

JH
Jay Hobdy
Jan 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

You know, I would like to see an employee take some initiative and learn something on his own.

 

Or come to me and say I want to learn xxx, it will help both of us by xxx, can you help pay?

 

But in this situation I agree, he should be paid as the training is very specific.

(1)
U
Undisclosed #3
Jan 27, 2017

I hear ya, alot of employees today are "entititled" thinking they need to be compensated for anything and everything that is halfway work related to the business. I understand its their time they are taking, but they dont understand that the small sacrifice of time that they take on educating themselves will usually reap much larger benefits in the future as compared to the time they spent on training. 

Im not advocating to be a cheapskate and not pay for training, but what I am amazed at is the unwillingness of majority of people to advance themselves when off the clock.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Jan 27, 2017

I bought study books for one of my sales engineers to take a Microsoft certification test: basic entry level test to get at least one Microsoft certification, and offered to pay for the test. He said he was interested, but It's been a year and he still hasn't even studied the books I think.

Microsoft Windows is a necessary but commodity skill that I don't think I need to provide time on the clock to study or pay for a special course.

Now take for example VMWare. That is a less common and more specialized skill, and if we needed the to have someone certified, I might only consider paying for the class, but I would at least probably pay for the test and allow paid time to take the class.

Avatar
Christopher Freeman
Jan 27, 2017

Motivation, Goals, Direction , Good leadership motivate to a purpose and direction. 

The management team sets the attitude and direction for the team. 

If it does not happen , well then better check in on who's in charge and why. 

It s not always about the bottom line as it is the direction to the bottom line. 

Over the years I found that I just could not work for many company's due to their hierarchy and who was in charge and why they were in charge . 

This take s time, Training, setting standards right up front. 

CH
Corbin Hambrick
Jan 30, 2017

"... employees who only learn if the company pays for them to do so are probably bad employees. Companies that force employees to learn everything on their own are probably bad companies."

Well put.

Either pay for training and set the level of expectation that they should be able to produce in the field, or ask them to do training and offer pay raise once proven in the field.

Our employees are the heart of our production.  They better skilled they are the better they will produce.  You HAVE to invest in your production.

I pay for all training I send my guys to.  I also purchase industry books and demo equipment and EXPECT that they will take advantage of that on their own time.  I also EXPECT them to be active in industry forums, etc.  The ones that don't I view as not as interested in their career.

When I was a programmer I stayed up all the time learning new skills.  Young ones these days often don't seem to understand the need to spend extracurricular time keeping up.

(1)
Avatar
Armando Perez
Jan 30, 2017
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

Our general rule of thumb is if the training is available only during on-the-clock times, then we pay for the time. If it is available off-the-clock, then its on their time. We also pay a quarterly bump for completing so many hours of training, so they also get that benefit.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Nov 27, 2017

There was a lot of "yes we pay for training" but not clear what that includes. Are you paying the training fees such as class fee, materials etc? Are you paying for their time? How do you handle time if its online based like Milestone or Alarm.com? 

 

Currently I am inquiring about VMS such as Milestone or Exacq, Alarm.com platform, 2GIG, and DSC.

 

I am thinking some thing like $xx bonus for a specific certification. That way I have a fixed cost.

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Nov 27, 2017

I would suggest checking with your state employment agency.  

For example, in California it would be required, even if at home with an hourly “non-exempt” employee, according to several online sources if the training or seminar was “job related.”

Avatar
Dwayne Cooney
Nov 27, 2017

Any employee should be paid for any training he/she is required to have for their job description.

I worked for an integrator who held back all training costs spent on the employee for the final 6 months of their employment if they quit or were terminated. That was based on a signed agreement upon being hired.

(1)
New discussion

Ask questions and get answers to your physical security questions from IPVM team members and fellow subscribers.

Newest discussions