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No Electronic Security System And Life Safety System Should Be Sold And Installed To The Public That Is Not Listed As Defined By The NEC.

Listing by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) such as Underwriters Laboratories, Inc. is not for marketing, it is to help ensure reliability. NFPA 70 of the National Electrical Code (NEC) requires that all products be listed for their intended purpose. It is important to remember that this product is sold to consumers for security and life safety purposes so listing of same is mission critical. The same holds true for smoke and CO detectors. In other words, I do not think anyone would ever knowingly buy any life safety smoke or CO detector if it was not listed by UL or another NRTL. 

Reliability is mission critical to any security and life safety system and to sell any product in the stream of commerce that is not listed is dangerous.

Consumers and authorities having jurisdiction (AHJ) need to know. 

No electronic security system and life safety system should be sold and installed to the public that is not listed as defined by the NEC.

Jeffrey D. Zwirn, CPP[1] CFPS,[2] CFE,[3] SET[4]FASI&T,[5] MBAT,[6] CHPA-IV[7]President, IDS Research and Development, Inc. 

[1] Certified Protection Professional, Board Certified In Security Management, American Society for Industrial

[2] Certified Fire Protection Specialist – National Fire Protection Association International (NFPA)

[3] Certified Fraud Examiner-National Association of Certified Fraud Examiners

[4]   NICET Level IV Certified, Senior Engineering Technician, Fire Protection Engineering Technology/Fire Alarm Systems-National Institute For Certification in Engineering Technologies (NICET)

[5] NICET Level I and II Certified Engineering Technician, Fire Protection Engineering Technology/Inspection and Testing of Fire Alarm Systems-National Institute For Certification In Engineering Technologies (NICET).

[6] Master Burglar Technician.

[7] Homeland Protection Associate Level IV Certification From the National Sheriffs' Association (NSA) In Conjunction With The Global Society For Homeland and National Security Professionals.

 

 

 

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: Simplisafe 'All New' Generation 3 Tested

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What percentage of your life consists of typing out irrelevant certifications and their meaning?

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I like how he now has a bibliography. 

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Undisclosed #2:

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Too many sarcastic responses to Mr. Zwirn's comments. I know because I am always 100% dead serious in all of my comments. Similar things happened to Marty, he hardly ever posts anymore.

Seriously though, we need intelligent people like Zwirn on these forums and if we simply reply with condescending sarcastic remarks meme's, they will not waste their time with commenting anymore. 

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Thank you Sean. 

 

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"Too many sarcastic responses to Mr. Zwirn's comments."

Mr. Zwirn invites sarcastic responses by his own obtuse posting practices.

Do not blame the birds of prey for eating the carrion that is made available to them.

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Further, this is a discussion forum.

Discussion requires listening to opposing views and engaging in debate on the merits of this or that related to the discussion subject.

Mr. Zwirn has shown repeatedly in past strings that he does not possess this ability, and instead likes to engage in pontification - based on the inferred strengths of his numerous credentials he repeatedly lists.

The only legitimate response to this practice (imo) is sarcasm.

Case Closed.

 

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I have not read thru most of his giant wall of texts but from what I can tell atleast he isnt being a Dbag about it and if he is, well atleast he posts disclosed.  I'd say its ok to be sarcastic and condescending as long as you are willing to post disclosed. I dont see the point of posting undisclosed if you are hiding behind the undisclosed title. I do see the point if you are posting somewhat sensitive info.

However i have always felt its rather douche-baggish to be sarcastically critical of someone behind a cloak. Speaking of people's ability to posses something, I usually do not see the ability to post disclosed among the people who post condescending sarcasm within their posession



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Sean, I just want to let you know that the internet is full of trolls.

Like myself, but to make things better I am seriously thinking about legally changing my name to Undisclosed#1.

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Speaking from one troll to another, you should joing the "coming out of the cave" movement. You will feel much more liberated.

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"The cave has a monochrome monitor, I am never coming out".

Here is one last one for the thread, A relative perhaps?

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we disagree.

just as Mr. Zwirn's repeated use of credentials adds no real value to the discussion, the identity of posters of comedy or sarcasm also adds no real value - beyond being a talking point that those like yourself who always post Disclosed like to refer to when your position is weakly supported.

Instead, the value is actually in the content of the posts - whether offering expert advice or a competent comedic position on the subject being debated.

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Thank you for your valued content mam!

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This is the correct response when others criticize anonymous posts.

There is no morally or ethically superior position just because you identify yourself. 

I actually criticized Jeff in January for the exact same thing (criticizing anonymous posters that were criticizing his positions).

 

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"I'd say its ok to be sarcastic and condescending as long as you are willing to post disclosed."

My employer rather vehemently disagrees.

"You will feel much more liberated."

Unemployment can be quite liberating, I've heard.

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JZ: Stop!, don't eat that toast!

GUY: Why not sir?

JZ: Well I have expertly noticed that your toaster is missing a UL sticker. We need to inform the authorities.

Guy: Are you sure we need to do that?

JZ: Definitely, that toast is toast son. Obviously irrefutably compromised!

JZ: CC!

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Doesn't UL list products as being safe? I am not seeing the argument against this. Don't we want to make sure the items we install are at least not going to shock someone?

 

Of course, we do not really need the laundry list of certifications. It looks arrogant.

 

Jay Hobdy
CEO of My Company

IPVM Access Control Certified

Alarm.com Access Control Certified

Alarm.com Marketing Trained

Watched some other Alarm.com videos

Watched some Milestone videos

Watched some Axis videos

Dahua School of Hard Knocks/Malware Certified

A Legend In My Own Mind

 

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Good points Jay.

While I might personally see a certain benefit in being able to shock someone on demand, I agree with you that service providers should be looking for the best solutions for their customers - including maybe UL certification for their systems so nobody gets shocked accidentally.

"Of course, we do not really need the laundry list of certifications. It looks arrogant."

It goes beyond just simple arrogance - though I agree that this drives it.

If your goal is to convince someone of something, you need to be able to understand that other persons perspective - and use this information to strengthen your argument to convince them to buy your thing.

i.e. to convince someone to buy your thing, you have to show that your product solves a problem that you have determined this person has.  Otherwise, why would they buy your thing?

Convincing people to do anything is a pretty hard thing to do.  If you give potential customers a reason to laugh at you instead, then you add huge hurdles to successful convincing.

Example:  Chinese manufacturers who use non-native English speakers to write ad copy for websites and documentation seeking to convince potential N American buyers to buy their things.

We all know - and have seen - the results of these types of efforts:  sarcasm and memes.

Someone long ago mentioned to Mr. Zwirn that it might be wise to hire a marketing person to engage the industry with his message, recognizing that he is not that good at convincing people.  From the beginning, I concurred with this assessment.

Too bad that Ms. Fenner has recently been snapped up.

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I think listing is important for the safety of the consumer. As it is now, there are tons of counterfeit products out on the market that hold no listing. I have seen power supplies installed by some vendors that were poorly design and constructed with critical design flaws and carrying no listing label. The sad part is, unless the AHJ actually does their job nothing will improve with compliance.

I've noticed over the years that the AHJ shows much less focus on the security installations as a whole.

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Additional certifications, acheivements, and awards from Zwirn’s resume/footer:

1. Black belt level 3

2. 27 Xbox Achievements

3. 32” vertical leap

4. 86 BPM Resting Heart Rate

5. 96 WPM typing rate

6. Participation award at field day ‘83

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1. Having certification in security products is essential. There are various safety certs around the world, so it is important to make sure there is something local with relevance. 

 

2. Some states, such as NJ make a big deal about misrepresenting yourself. If you don't put your license number in an email or website or business card or letterhead they can fine you.

The certs prove that you have some textbook knowledge vs the average bear. Take it with a grain of salt but they have some education vs someone who watched a few YouTube videos and joined the field. 

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Having to point out all of your certifications to people all the time is like going into a dojo to learn. When you walk into a dojo and the sensei talks about how great he is and how he can whip anyone at any time you really don't feel intimidated. When you walk into the dojo and the sensei is very quiet, humble and so gracious you have considered having him as a teacher you know right away you are getting ready to get your A$$ handed to you. I have found the same to be true in other areas in life as well. I have known a lot of book smart people over the years, yes they are usually very intelligent but often are some of the dumbest people you will ever meet.

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LOl I remember going into a meeting with the owner of my former company. He got a little arrogant, then passed the meeting to me for the actual proposal. Afterward, I was told if we ever wanted to do business with them, leave the owner out of it. They said we know you are the smartest people in the room regarding cameras, that's why you are here. We don't need XYZ to keep reminding us.

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The salient issue is that no life safety or security product should be sold to the public unless and until it is listed for its intended purpose.  

Jeffrey D. Zwirn, CPP, CFPS, CFE, SET, FASI&T, CHPA-IV, MBAT, President                                                      

IDS Research & Development, Incorporated

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So, let’s get to the brass tacks here.  

There is UL/ETL/FM and a host of other test labs that verify products to the standard they are intended to meet.

So, which standard applies in most cases?  

Most products are certified at the power level to prevent electrocution or fire hazard.  Some are CE certified to not cause RF interference with your other radio devices, like those rabbit ear televisions you still use.

Of course, smoke detectors are certified for residential or commercial use to meet NFPA 101’s requirements to meet NFPA 72’s requirements which are also defined in NFPA 70.  It’s all very straightforward.  Unless of course you are installing a required system to meet FM’s requirements, then those products must all be listed by FM.

There are UL and FM Listed Fire and Security systems which define methods of installation and services beyond the basics.  These provide the insurers with specific functionality and that allows a user to either obtain discounted insurance, or insurance at all.

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Question: Is this certification "authority" realizing a profit from having items added to their list?  Are they a "pay-to-play" toothless figurehead that is just there to pass out their authorizations in order to receive a subscription or stipend?  While I applaud the idea of organizations such as UL, I think we all know that their certifications are a joke to the Chinese manufacturers, they will pass them around to each other with no hesitation whatsoever if it is what it takes to make a sale.

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Not taking the reliability of life safety and security system products seriously will increase the risk to all persons who rely on same. NRTL's such and UL and ETL need to be involved in any life safety and security system equipment which is being sold to the public.  The remaining comments in your response are erroneous. 

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Did you even read the comment you replied to, Jeff?

The remaining comments in your response are erroneous.

#10 was pretty spot on in my opinion.

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