Subscriber Discussion

Manager Using Cameras To Listen To Employees - Should We Tell The Owner?

JW
Joseph Weigle
Nov 16, 2016

We have a small business client that has 7 cameras onsite. One of the managers is using the audio capability of the cameras to listen to employees. The manager is somewhat abrasive in manner and employees are chatting amongst themselves about this. The manager now spends an inordinate amount of time listening rather than performing assigned duties. Should we tell the owners of the business of this ?

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Brandon Knutson
Nov 16, 2016
IPVMU Certified

I would only share with the owners if the use of audio in this manner is illegal in your state (if in USA).

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 16, 2016
IPVMU Certified

If the employees have been made aware that their conversations can be monitored, then no, since its legal and I am not there to evaulate their managers performance.

If the employees have not been made aware, I would tell the owners that they need to disable the audio at once or inform everyone about the monitoring.

In that case, assuming that the audio is being recorded as well, the owners are likely violating their rights, not just the manager, as they might establish a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Assuming U.S. as well.

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JW
Joseph Weigle
Nov 16, 2016

In our state it is legal to record video & audio if the device doing the recording is in a public place, and at least one of the parties (owners\managers) are aware of the recordings. Thank you for your feedback. At this point I will reframe from notifying the owners of the managers behavior.

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Brandon Knutson
Nov 16, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Are in you in the state of Georgia by chance?

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/georgia-recording-law

U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 16, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Joseph, "one of the parties" refers to "one of the parties in the conversation", not one of the parties monitoring.

Unless the manager or agent is actually taking part in the conversation, there are 0 parties giving consent, which is not legal in any state, assuming they have a reasonable expectation of privacy, i.e. employees have not been notified..

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JW
Joseph Weigle
Nov 16, 2016

We are in the state of Georgia. If a sign is posted at the facility advising security cameras in use, would that suffice as to the employees being notified ?

U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 16, 2016
IPVMU Certified

IANAL, but I would think the sign would have to mention the audio as well:

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Brandon Knutson
Nov 16, 2016
IPVMU Certified

I'm not sure and hopefully someone else can add a more definitive answer to this post.

My opinion... the security cameras in-use sign might satisfy the GA requirement for consent to use the cameras "in any private place and out of the public view."

I doubt posting a sign, even one that mentions audio would meet the requirement to obtain consent from one of the people in the conservation that is being bugged. The GA state law uses the term consent, not notification.

Maybe posting the camera and audio in-use sign and making it a clear condition of employment that audio surveillance consent is given. Seems more socially acceptable and more ethical just to disable the camera's audio function.

I would advise the owners that using the camera's audio in the manner it is being used is likely illegal. Offer to disable it for them.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 16, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Yes, apparently Georgia has unusually restrictive laws regarding even the recording of video without a sign:

Any person, through the use of any device, without the consent of all persons observed, to observe, photograph, or record the activities of another which occur in any private place and out of public view; provided, however, that it shall not be unlawful:

I think therefore a consent rider with the employment paperwork is prudent.

BTW, it may be that the owners are not even aware of the capability to eavesdrop on conversations, both live and recorded. In that case, you need to disable it pronto and then ask them what they want to do, lest they try to put it on you.

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Joseph Marotta
Nov 16, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Maybe a lawyer's website in your state would have free advice available. (stop laughing, it could happen!) This definitely could be considered illegal eavesdropping but check with a lawyer. If the manager is spending his/her day eavesdropping instead of performing their other duties, I would definitely let the owner's know. Maybe the owners asked him/her to eavesdrop? If this is prohibited in your state, the manager and the owners could be facing a lawsuit from the employees.

UE
Undisclosed End User #2
Nov 17, 2016

Because you are the camera installer and the client's manager could blame the misuse of equipment on your setup; it may protect you if you actually provide written notice to your client to protect yourself.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 17, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

Absolutely not. None of your business.

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JW
Joseph Weigle
Nov 17, 2016

Thanks everyone. I'll think about all the responses I've received and develop a plan.

U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 17, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Tell the owners about the audio capabilities of the system.

Do it right in front of one of the audio enabled cameras.

Review the clip of you informing them, with them.

Export the clip and send to Contract Vault (or equivalent).

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Nov 17, 2016

Employees have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the workplace unless otherwise stated/made known. In this instance, purposely listening to employee conversations would seem to be in violation and very different to audio being recorded for the purpose of monitoring/watching for criminal activity (or whatever purpose the video surveillance has been installed for). I think your client could potentially be open to a lawsuit if his/her employee are unaware that they are being listened to.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Nov 17, 2016

I also think you have a duty to warn the client/customer of the use of audio, and video, in the workplace. Where they can/can't place cameras and whether or not, your state allows one party knowledge of audio recordings. It seems to me that your company could be sued (along with the business) for not apprising the business of proper use of surveillance equipment. I'm not a lawyer and am only commenting based on my background/experiences.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 17, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

In Ohio, we are a one party consent state. This means that one party to a given conversation must be aware of the audio recording. This means that employers must notify their staff of such audio recordings and place notices on entry doors to warn the public. If you happen to walk into that business, you have no right to privacy, as the posted warnings tell you.

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Joseph Marotta
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

I'm pretty sure the only areas where employees "legally" have an "expectation of privacy" is in a private office, a conference/meeting room with door closed, and the restrooms. Any location where someone could walk past and possibly hear a conversation would be considered a 'non-private' area. Open office work areas do not grant privacy because normal conversations can typically be heard between cubicles/workstations. Of course, always check with an attorney.

jo
jason oneal
Nov 18, 2016

Kirschenbaum's website has very direct information regarding legalities of audio recording and how to handle it as an integrator. I highly suggest you check with him... ESPECIALLY if you installed the audio device.

As far as telling the owner of the manager's behavior, I agree with Jon D., none of your business.

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Cameron Javdani
Nov 18, 2016
Louroe Electronics

As this thread has turned from a "should I tell" question to a discussion on audio statutes, here's a link to our website with a state by state reference on audio laws.

As far as informing a customer of audio is concerned, we've seen some integrators have the end user sign off on a parts list when commissioning or take photos of signage to keep with the project file.

U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #4
Nov 21, 2016

YES! It's the owner who's paying the bills and the owner who's liable if audio is used inappropriately/illegally.

Simply informing him and then showing him how to run an audit trail of who has viewed video with audio empowers him to make the discovery on his own.

Then you can walk away with a clean conscience.

BC
Bruce Cisne
Nov 21, 2016
IPVMU Certified

I would suggest that you mind your own business. If a manager isn't doing their job, the owner will know soon enough.

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Armando Perez
Nov 22, 2016
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

I take his question as more of a loyalty to the owner of the business than to the legality of the ayatem. I will address what I see as the question.

The client is the owner of the business. they are the ones who gave you their money and their trust. the manager may very well be one of the people who they need to watch, and it's not up to you to decide if they are doing it right. it is however, in my opinion, your responsibility to your client to inform them of anything that may hurt them. that is why they hired you to begin with. we always disclose to the owner of the business anything we observe. if an employee is asking a bunch of questions, we yell the owner. if an employee appears to be wasting time because they have access to the system, we also disclose. privately, and with caution so they know we are not trying to run their business, but so there is no question that we have their back.

This used to happen all the time in the fast food market. always, always go to the owner and disclose anything that could or is causing them to lose money or affecting their business.

The legality and signage side of this is something entirely different.

I'm on my phone so, apologies for punctuation and typos.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 22, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

Couldn't disagree more. Businesses don't hire you to be a nanny. They didn't hire you to be a business consultant. Stay in your lane. If they happen to ask your opinion, feel free to offer it then. Until then, keep it to yourself.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 22, 2016
IPVMU Certified

I would agree with you except that the manager was doing something illegal with the system Joseph installed.

To be transparent as possible Joseph could say "after observing how one of your manager primarily uses the system to overhear conversations that he is not a party to, I became concerned about its legality of doing so. Here's what I found..."

If you just say "audio recording/monitoring can be illegal when the person doing the recording is not a party to the conversation.", then this is only an abstract warning. Telling him about the manager makes it clear that action is indicated to avoid harm to the owner thru the system.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 22, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

Huh? When would it be likely that you would be able to review audio on a camera that your not under? If it's illegal to record audio, why install it? I don't think the legality of the recordings was the core issue. It was about snitching on the manager. The fact that he stuck his nose in that far is a bad sign. Get it, do your work, and get out. Don't be all up in other people's business. It's not your task to do so.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 22, 2016
IPVMU Certified

I don't think the legality of the recordings was the core issue. It was about snitching on the manager.

You are right, it was only about whether he should say something about the manager acting in an inappropriate way (in the OP's estimation). And if that was all there was to it, then I would agree with you as I have already indicated.

But once the OP realized that not only was the manager's behavior unproductive, but was possibly illegal, he must address that issue fully, as it is far more serious. Furthermore, he needs to indicate that it is more than just a abstract concern, due to the ongoing employee use.

Explaining it this way gives all the facts to the owner, without passing judgement on the manager (the manager may not know the law regarding audio), to decide on a prudent and expeditious course of action.

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Armando Perez
Nov 22, 2016
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

This, 1000x.

Always reduce your clients liability while protecting against increasing your own.

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Armando Perez
Nov 22, 2016
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

So you're saying if I hire you to help me... say... stop employee theft. you sell me cameras, (and microphones) I get cameras. and while you are installing them you see an employee stealing. you're seriously going to "stay in your lane"?

If that were me and I found out you didn't tell me... I would never hire you again.

My business serves my clients. that would be the owner of the business. we don't get in and get out. we look out for the client every step of the way.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 22, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

Straw man argument man. Completely different sets of criteria there.

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Armando Perez
Nov 22, 2016
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

Not at all. it's another thing we see when doing smaller businesses where we disclose info to our client. whether the guy is stealing or causing other problems that are potentially illegal and increasing the clients liability, the rule is the same. serve your client, the owner.

UE
Undisclosed End User #5
Nov 22, 2016

I have a strong impression that the original poster originally thought it was totally legal to use the audio without consent from those being monitored. He probably unknowingly told his client that the audio was legal to use, but now has been enlightened by our collective knowledge. What started as a question of should I tell the owner about the manager's obsessive use of the camera's audio has turned into a very sticky situation.

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David Coughlin
Nov 28, 2016
Protection One / ADT

Sorry to jump on this late but, as a security industry veteran since 1990 who also is an attorney, these types of conversations are very interesting to me. Ironically, audio recording (and listening), a.k.a. "electronic eavesdropping" using electronic means is far more regulated than is video. This is more a sign of the laws not keeping up with the technology. All states typically have one of two options for laws prohibiting electronic electronic eavesdropping. The first requires consent of at least one party involved in the specific conversation and the other requires consent of all parties involved. The question typically is understanding what constitutes "consent." Case law is different throughout the country but, simple notice does not typically constitute consent. So, a sign advising people of recording or listening taking place will very likely be insufficient. In general, my advice is to seek the advice of a lawyer experience in privacy and electronics. Talking to one before there is a problem always seems like an unnecessary expense. However, it's always less costly then waiting to talk to an attorney after you really need one.

Regarding the business question, should an integrator tell an owner if he sees an employee of the owner steeling stock from the owner? Well, recording audio takes up storage space. For me, I'd consider that steeling company resources. And tell the owner. Further, when the owner finds out he's only getting six days of video recording because the audio takes up so much space, it's not his manager he's going to blame first...it's the integrator...and the manager will have a head-start on throwing the integrator under the buss.

Regardless of what you do as an integrator, it should be consistent with well written and communicated policies. The fact is, these questions typically don't come up to the integrator's ownership level...they're handled by like level installers and PM's. With out a plan that everyone knows on how do deal with situations like this, there is no telling what will be done.

Also, imho, professional integrators should be advising their clients of the capabilities of the installed systems and possible pit falls. Don't give legal or business advice but rather state the features and note that there are possible regulatory restrictions on their use...Always refer legal questions to their attorny. No matter how many Law & Order episode's I've seen, this is always my advice.

For consistency and customer service, we provide a one page "disclaimer" with all video and audio recording solutions, even when selling interview systems to the state police.

Best,

David Coughlin

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 28, 2016
IPVMU Certified

...should an integrator tell an owner if he sees an employee of the owner steeling stock from the owner? Well, recording audio takes up storage space. For me, I'd consider that steeling company resources. And tell the owner.

That's clever, but surely just listening to the audio doesn't take storage space, no?

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David Coughlin
Nov 28, 2016
Protection One / ADT

Hmmm, good point. I was assuming that the manager had decided to start recording audio on his own. This setting is usually something that has to be activated in the VMS.

Best,

David Coughlin

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Kyle Folger
Nov 29, 2016
IPVMU Certified

I must ask after reading all of the posts, why did the manager have access to the audio of the camera in the first place? When I install cameras that happen to have audio, I disable the audio on the camera unless the purpose of installing that camera was for capturing audio. Capturing audio is always a discussion I generally have with a client and we go over the legalities of audio recording. From there the owner can decide if the manager or managers have access to the audio of the camera. If that discussion takes place, then your situation never happens without the owners consent. If the manager is supposed to be using the audio feed then the owner would be aware and how much time that manager uses to listen to audio is none of your business at that point.

Since you are asking this type of question, I would simply review with the owner the use of audio in the system and if a policy isn't in place, create one and then the owner can make the proper decisions based off a managers action.

Slightly unrelated but I have a client that has multiple drop off stores that are typically staffed with one person. I was working at one site and multiple customers walked in and the employee was MIA multiple times while I have to have the awkward position of stating that I can't help the customer and have no idea where the employee was. I knew the employee went to his car to smoke up, but I only stated to the owner what I experienced because it affected me directly. I look out for my clients but I don't babysit and relay information heard while on site. If it were in a situation where I witnessed major company losses as a result of an employees actions, I would be inclined to report that. On the other hand when an employee talks badly about their boss or are generally unproductive, I don't get involved because a good manager or owner can catch these issues on their own.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 29, 2016
IPVMU Certified

I have to have the awkward position of stating that I can't help the customer and have no idea where the employee was. I knew the employee went to his car to smoke up...

"Sorry ma'am, Cheech will be back in about 5 minutes..."

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