Subscriber Discussion

Low-Wach Camera Design. - Do Your Security Cameras Lie?

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 28, 2017

Interesting twist on lensing your cameras properly.  

 

Link to video

 

 

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Brandon Knutson
Nov 28, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Slick marketing.

From watching the video I summarize it as a tighter field of view ("high-wach") provides more subject details. Duh

So how does high-wach result in fewer cameras to cover a campus? Are they suggesting we not use wide FOV for situational awareness purposes?

 

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Stephen Bond
Nov 28, 2017

Brandon,

I appreciate your reply. In response to your second question, it is our opinion that anything less than 12.5-pixels-per-foot, or "observation-level" detail, is not useful.

The problem with the traditional definition of "situational awareness" becomes painfully obvious while reviewing footage during investigations.  Crime rarely occurs where you want it to.

At Wach1design, we feel that if the camera can see it, the footage should be useful.

You are certainly entitled to disagree.

Concerning your question pertaining to fewer cameras, please refer to the last few minutes of the video. I show how High-Wach views cover substantially more square-footage of useful video than Low-Wach views.  

However, this only makes sense if you agree on the term of "useful" video.  If the Low-Wach resolution is acceptable for your situation, then it is definitely the correct solution.

I appreciate you calling it "slick marketing".  We worked really hard on it. 

Stephen W. Bond

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MM
Michael Miller
Nov 28, 2017

Seems like you spend a lot of time making a video when you could have just said: "we design systems with minimum 12.5 PPF".  Also why the .5 and not 12 or 13? 

 

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Stephen Bond
Nov 29, 2017

Hey Michael,

Actually, I spent years developing a process for coherent surveillance design.  Seriously, years!

I own a wonderful collection of SnapOn tools.  I still take my car to a mechanic for repairs.  Access to the best tools available in no way qualifies me to work on cars.

I have no doubt there are many surveillance experts on this forum.  However, I have seen countless examples of incredibly ineffective and inefficient surveillance designs.  That is the reason I started Wach1design.

If a person spends some time looking over the articles I've published, they will certainly appreciate there is much more to Wach1design than 12.5-pixels-per-foot.

Now about the 12.5-pixels-per-foot...When I was working out the equations supporting my methods, it turned out that 12.5-pixels-per-foot was much cleaner math than 12 or 13-pixels-per-foot.

Actually I started out with 10-pixels-per-foot as a minimum, and designed many systems around that. However, as I reviewed the coverage it provided after the deployments, I decided the minimum resolution needed to be increased to provide a margin to account for harsh lighting conditions and less-than-perfect focusing of cameras by the installation technician.

Hope this answers your questions.

 

Stephen W. Bond

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

When I was working out the equations supporting my methods, it turned out that 12.5-pixels-per-foot was much cleaner math than 12 or 13-pixels-per-foot.

That sounds fascinating!

Can you share some concrete examples of how the 12.5 constant makes the math clearer? (Without revealing any trade secrets, of course).

Are you using base-25, perhaps?

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Stephen Bond
Nov 29, 2017

Undisclosed #1,

My choice for 12.5-pixels-per-foot was much simpler than inventing a new number system.  I chose to stick with our base-10 system.

As a general rule, 50-pixels-per-foot is the minimum resolution accepted as "Identification" level detail.

Everybody wants facial detail.  So facial detail of 50-pixels-per-foot became the "standard".

The next challenge was to figure out the minimum number of pixels-per-foot that would provide enough detail to determine (in reasonable lighting) a person's gender, skin-tone and clothing description (blue jeans or khakis, etc. etc).  We call this "Observation" level detail.

As mentioned earlier, I originally settled on 10-pixels-per-foot as the minimum for "Observation" level detail.  10-PPF works on cloudy days with no shadows.  However, it became very "iffy" on bright, sunny days with lots of shadows and highlights.  So, I increased the minimum by 25% to help account for some of these conditions.

Finally, if you really want a noticeable increase in a camera's perceived sharpness, you need to double its horizontal resolution.  For example a 1.2MP camera vs a 5MP camera.  Or a 1080P camera versus a 4K camera.  

This entails multiplying or dividing by 2.

50 divided by 12.5 equals 4.  Simple Math.

That is why 12.5-pixels-per-foot is our minimum instead of 12 or 13-pixels-per-foot.

Stephen W. Bond

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Nov 29, 2017

In all humor, who makes a camera with .5 pixels?

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

For example a 1.2MP camera vs a 5MP camera.

Lesser known fact: A 4MP camera typically offers the same or more horizontal resolution than a 5MP.

 

 

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Brandon Knutson
Nov 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I appreciate the video, concept and explanations, but I'll stick with covering a campus my usual way. Using wide angle cameras for large area situational awareness and subject tracking, combined with high pixels per foot cameras placed at chokepoints for useful subject identification.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 28, 2017
IPVMU Certified

So the solution is to use expensive telephoto lenses hundreds of feet away from the target and hope nothing blocks the near field?

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 28, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Just wondering but whenever we use a varifocal lens, we loose the near field.

 

How are they avoiding losing the area near/under the camera?

 

We do try to use tighter field of view when appropriate such as long corridors, alleys, etc. So this is not new.

 

 

 

 

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 28, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Are these 2 cameras mounted in the same location? I think the 2nd camera is located further back.

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Brian Karas
Nov 28, 2017
IPVM

I think this video is almost as deceptive as how they try to portray "free" camera designs done by manufacturers.

The "high-wach" designs that they show take advantage of the fact that long focal-length lenses tend to make images look "flatter" than they really are, or to put it another way, they reduce your ability to accurately perceive depth in the images. This is particularly effective when the image sensor is closer to vertical (camera mounted closer to the ground/less downward tilt).

To take advantage of their recommended images the cameras need to be much further away from the subjects they will be monitoring, so that you can use a long focal length lens without objects in the near-field taking up the entire frame.

The video ignores 5 key considerations:

  1. Camera positions are often practically limited by existing structures and/or the boundaries of the customers property. You can not always install cameras far enough away to accommodate the kinds of layouts they propose.
  2. Generally speaking, long focal length lenses have smaller apertures and capture less light. Or, a long focal length length lens with a large aperture will be more expensive. Night time video will suffer as a result.
  3. Long focal length lenses will be more expensive in general than shorter focal length lenses.
  4. Not all cameras are available with long lenses, or have the ability to accommodate external lenses. Those that do also tend be much more expensive than their counterparts.
  5. The lower mounting heights required for their proposed designs increase the likelihood of cameras being tampered with, or possibly just hit/moved by day-to-day activities.

Personally, from my experience, manufacturers are not consciously ignoring these alternative design options in the interest of selling more cameras, they are ignoring them because they are impractical for many applications and introduce additional considerations and potential limitations.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 28, 2017
IPVMU Certified

If it were possible to add to your impressive litany of complaints, I would add that:

1. Longer focal lengths also have technical limitations, aside from f-stop, like CoC/MTF and atmospherics, see A Major Flaw in Long Lenses and PTZs Found.

2. The entire depth of field will not be in focus, objects closer to the camera will be blurry.

Nice call on the increased vandalism due to height.

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Brian Karas
Nov 28, 2017
IPVM

We could probably build a list just of long focal length issues alone.

Add to the list:  increased potential for image blurring/degradation from any vibrations at the camera, potentially increased by added weight of these lenses and/or need for external enclosures if using box cameras (more likely to accept long lenses due to non-integrated lenses).

 

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Stephen Bond
Nov 29, 2017

Brian,

Another excellent point about camera mounting location.  Years ago, when I first started this, I specified a camera to be installed on a huge I-Beam at a chemical plant.  I am not kidding, this I-Beam was huge.  It happen to be supporting a gigantic HVAC system.  

As long as the HVAC system was not running, the camera worked perfectly, however, when the HVAC system turned on, a strange herringbone-pattern rippled continuously through the image.  

Moral of the story.... do not mount surveillance cameras to surfaces which are also attached to machines that vibrate when operational.

 

The High-Wach cameras were mounted on the top of light-stands for these shots.  You know those skinny tripods used to hold lighting equipment during temporary photo-shoots?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1191009-REG/hive_lighting_ks_compact_mse_revenger_stand.html

No sane person would permanently mount a camera on anything so flimsy.  If you look at the green, yellow and red flags in the Kentucky Horse Park shots, you can see it was very windy that day.

Even with that amount of camera movement, the camera still produces an excellent view.  

Wind does not tend to induce oscillation like a spinning motor does, its motion tends to be much more subtle and smooth, almost wave-like.  Even when a pole moves during windy events, the camera's view is still very usable.

Moral of the story, choose the most stable, resonate-free mounting surface possible for your camera's mounting location.  But it doesn't have to be as sturdy as the Hoover Dam to achieve acceptable results.

There are many excellent choices for exterior enclosures available, and the flat piece of glass on exterior enclosures is much less prone to scratches and glare induced issues compared to dome cameras.  The plastic or acrylic material that domes are made of does not tend to age as well as glass does with extended exposure to sunlight and weather.  

There is no doubt that exterior enclosures are not as attractive as dome cameras, but they certainly have their advantages as well.

Stephen W. Bond

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Stephen Bond
Nov 29, 2017

Hey Brian,

You make some excellent points for discussion.  Let's take them one-by-one.

1.  Camera positions are often practically limited by existing structures and/or the boundaries of the customers property. You can not always install cameras far enough away to accommodate the kinds of layouts they propose.

I agree with you 100% that correct camera placement is critical.  As a matter of fact, I would argue that camera placement is the single most important aspect of surveillance design.  I tell my clients that it might appear that I am lost while I am performing a site evaluation.  This is because I spend an inordinate amount of time looking up at the roofs of buildings, figuring out the optimum position for each of their cameras.

Although camera cost continues to decrease over time, deployment cost continues to increase.  Minimizing the number of roof-penetrations and/or mounting locations required can have a significant impact on the overall project cost.

I have found that combining High-Wach views with precisely chosen mounting locations can substantially reduce the number of cameras and building penetration points required to cover large areas with useful video. Our process ensures we find those locations for each and every camera being deployed.

The last point I would like to make concerning this topic is your statement about not always "being able to install cameras far enough away".  We call it the Wach-Factor because it is a sliding scale.  We design the system around the most efficient camera/lens/mounting location for every covered area.

 

2.  Generally speaking, long focal length lenses have smaller apertures and capture less light. Or, a long focal length length lens with a large aperture will be more expensive. Night time video will suffer as a result.

Anyone who has spent any time with me discussing surveillance cameras knows I am a fan of exceptionally high-quality equipment.  I would never recommend that anyone choose poor quality lenses. Take a look at the photographers on the sideline of any professional sporting event. Nobody serious about their profession compromises on lenses.

Lighting is another very serious topic.  As a matter of fact, I developed my own Android application to work with the Minolta T-10A Professional Light Meter.  This tool allows us to provide exceptionally accurate and detailed light-level surveys of the areas under surveillance.  

An accurate light-level survey allows the client to consider the options of a more expensive camera which effectively sees "in-the-dark".  Or they can choose a less expensive camera, but will have to accept marginal to poor night-time performance.

A third choice is to choose a less expensive camera and add lighting to the affected area(s).  This is really a "budget" conversation, not a "camera" conversation, because the lighting issue exists no matter the lens choice or Wach-Factor.  Cameras need light.

 

3.  Long focal length lenses will be more expensive in general than shorter focal length lenses.

For the most part this point is covered in the prior discussion.  It is always tricky to isolate a single component when evaluating the value of the whole.  I just don't think it is possible to make the best burger using cheap beef.

When I started Wach1design, my goal was to provide a service which gives the client the best value for their overall surveillance budget.  When the entire system cost is taken into account, it becomes clear that "lens" cost is a very, very small percentage of the budget.  However, these lens choices and their precise placement have a huge impact on the usefulness of the system.

I don't think people are thinking about lens cost during a critical investigation.

 

4.  Not all cameras are available with long lenses, or have the ability to accommodate external lenses. Those that do also tend be much more expensive than their counterparts.

Our designs are based around cameras that are readily available in the marketplace.  Nearly every camera manufacturer offers options that can provide the specified viewing angle.  At the client's request, we will provide exact camera model number, specific lens and mounting brackets required for each location.  The client can tell us which brand(s) of cameras they want to use.

 

5.  The lower mounting heights required for their proposed designs increase the likelihood of cameras being tampered with, or possibly just hit/moved by day-to-day activities.

Mounting height is certainly taken into account for every camera location.  Most clients would agree a "face" shot is much more useful than a "bald-spot" shot.  The vast majority of our designs place the exterior cameras on roof-tops.  One of the engineers I work with request that I design cameras to be mounted at 10' 6" to ensure the best view of faces.

Mechanically, High-Wach views are no more susceptible to vandalism than Low-Wach views are.  However, the inverse may be true, since the camera providing the High-Wach view isn't located near the area under surveillance, whereas the Low-Wach camera is.

This is an excellent case to be made for "security-through-obscurity".

 

Personally, I was a little taken aback by your tone.  It almost seemed like you were attacking me.  That is an unusual experience for me.  I am much more accustomed to people loving and appreciating my work. 

 

Stephen W. Bond

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Brian Karas
Nov 29, 2017
IPVM

Stephen -

Your video claims manufacturers and integrators are purposefully trying to deceive customers with "free" camera designs (in the intro, and at 9:35, shown in the frame below):

Your video goes on to show an alternative approach to camera designs, which you effectively claim to be "better" by reducing camera counts, etc.

I disagree strongly with your assertion that "free" designs done by manufacturers and integrators are done with the intention of maximizing camera count. Many times, the end-user has a budget, or is getting competitive bids, thus the manufacturer or integrator doing the design has strong incentive to NOT over-design the system.

I believe your video makes an accusation towards manufacturers and integrators that it does not sufficiently back up. You state it is more of a "marketing" video than an educational one, and I agree with that because you are omitting key details, and limitations, of your proposed alternative designs. 

Can many "free" designs be improved, or done with alternative layouts? I am sure they can, particularly if the customer has the time and budget to engage someone such as yourself to dedicate several hours to a site visit and design layout. Still, this does not make the free designs purposefully deceptive in their proposals.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Speaking of lying, is the fact that you need long focal length lenses from extreme distances mentioned in the video?

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Stephen Bond
Nov 29, 2017

Undisclosed #1,

I love what you did with Pinocchio's nose. I'm serious.  Very creative. I wish I would have thought of it!

Stephen W. Bond

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Stephen Bond
Nov 29, 2017

Undisclosed #1,

Your question made me think of a joke by my favorite comedian Demetri Martin:

- I feel like my washing machine is sneaky. I put clothes in there and detergent and I hear all this noise and this turning around then I open the lid to see what’s going on and it’s like,... ‘…What man we’re just hanging out in here. There’s nothing happening, don’t worry about it. I’m a washing machine, not a Show-you-how-I-do-it machine.’

We created our video as an informative-marketing piece, not as a technical-education piece.  Lots of things in life can be reverse engineered.   However, reverse engineering does not lessen the value of it.

One could argue that the desire to figure something out and reverse-engineer it, enhances, instead of diminishing, the value of the original.

I really think your question touches on a different subject that has a deeper meaning which needs to be addressed.  And that is the fact that efficient and effective surveillance design is difficult and precise work.

I know it is precise and difficult work for two reasons:  First-off, I know first-hand how much time, thought, consideration and effort I put into every project I am part of.  And secondly are the endless examples of horrific surveillance design I've witnessed with my own eyes while performing site evaluations of existing cameras and coverage areas.

If efficient and effective surveillance design was quick and easy, everybody would be doing it the way we do it.  And we would all work for free because we would be finished before we started.  But that is just not the case.

The "trick" is being able to visualize the world the same way a camera "sees" the world.  It is very difficult to stop yourself from treating security cameras as if they are tiny-little sentry-guards that you position to watch over their posts.

Cameras do not "see" the world the same way as our eyes see the world.  Our designs explicitly take these differences into account.

There is a giant gulf between "knowledge" and "understanding".  Destin Sandlin from YouTube's Smarter Every Day has the best explanation of the differences in this video.  

I did not give the specifics of those two shots because it is not relevant to the overall subject matter.  I also don't want people going off half-cocked thinking they've got it mastered after an 11-minute video.

The fact is we design surveillance systems differently than most.  We explain why we feel our methods are superior to traditional surveillance designs.  Often our biggest hurdle to securing additional contracts is the perception that others are offering their surveillance design services for "free".

Our goal was get people to question the concept of "free".  We give them the information they need to come to their own conclusion of whether "free design" or "paid-for design" offers them the best value for their overall surveillance budget.

We provide a service.  We are not a university.

 

Stephen W. Bond

 

U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I did not give the specifics of those two shots because it is not relevant to the overall subject matter....

The fact is we design surveillance systems differently than most. We explain why we feel our methods are superior to traditional surveillance designs.

With all due respect Stephen, you mislead, apparently intentionally.

Not only do you not give the specifics of those two shots, you misdirect by making the viewer think that the difference resides in the camera, for instance this statement at 0:29, 

“We call it the Wach-factor. It defines how much the perception of depth is increased or decreased by the camera.”

But the Wach-factor is really increased/decreased by the increased/decreased distance to the subject, i.e. the placement of the same camera.

Since it is not fully explained and due to the misdirection, a false belief that a Hi-Wach camera exists is instilled.  Which is key to establishing a differentiator.

Reinforcing this is the title itself, “Do Security Cameras Lie?”

But we are not talking so much about the cameras themselves, but their placement.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Nov 29, 2017

They are trying to claim that they are so smart and are unique and telling the truth, but in reality, they 1) want you to pay them for consulting 2) are using a made up name so you can't compare, discuss with someone else who is knowledgeable, etc.

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Brian Karas
Nov 29, 2017
IPVM

are using a made up name

This kind of irked me as well. What they call a "Wach factor" is really just lens compression or perspective distortion applied to surveillance cameras. It is not an unknown or recently discovered tecqnique.

 

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Clint Hays
Oct 01, 2018

I've never been trusting of self created words or terms. I would be instantly doubting them if someone uses made up terms.

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Stephen Bond
Nov 29, 2017

Michael,

Thank you for starting this discussion. It has certainly turned out to be an interesting one that people have strong opinions about.  

Stephen W. Bond

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

My issue is the fact you imply since we do not charge for design, we automatically do a bad job and try to put more cameras in.

 

While the videos are cool, they are not very realistic.

 

The shot of the store fronts and gas station is not realistic. The gas station and location you mounted the camera are probably not managed/owned by the same company (If they are, this would be rare). So you do not get that mounting location. I believe the best option would be 2 vari focals on the front of the stores crossing each other so we get the narrow field of view,and eliminate the blind spot by having the cameras look towards each other.

 

The fact is, we are integrators, and we have to consider many factors such as client requirements, budget, and the environment. 

 

 

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 30, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Perhaps you are onto something after all, Stephen.  Maybe communities could be encouraged to create “Neighborhood Waches”; areas designed for reciprocal FOV easements between land owners.

So if an owner determined that they could hit an incredibly high Wach number from the house at the end of the cul-de-sac, located maybe a furlong away, they would be allowed to place their cameras on that property.  And vice-versa of course.  

 

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