Subscriber Discussion

Longer Range IR Or Low Light CCTV

JS
John Saunders
Oct 19, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Has anyone been involved with a successful implementation of fixed super low light (i.e. the Bosch units) or integrated IR unit that can provide Johnson criteria detection at 250+ metres? Nothing in the camera finder on this site meets those parameters, and the testing for the low light shootouts I can find is over 3 years old (and doesn't make the distance in any event). Hoping for newer, better tech. Thanks.

JH
John Honovich
Oct 19, 2016
IPVM

can provide Johnson criteria detection at 250+ metres?

At what FoV width do you want?

Here is a theoretical example of 250 meters distance and 30° AoV:

Fixed integrated IR units are just not designed for those ranges. You'd be better off looking at external IR here.

We have a number of newer low light shootouts contained in newer reports, e.g., Testing Axis' 1/2" Q1635 Camera and Hikvision Darkfighter 1/2" Imager Camera Tested but 250m is quite far. Again, what is the AoV you want?

JS
John Saunders
Oct 19, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Fixed integrated IR units are just not designed for those ranges. You'd be better off looking at external IR here.

That was kind of what I thought might happen. Not looking for wide - maybe 13 deg AoV. I have been considering thermal, but it would be nice to have a recognizable (for the user) daytime image as well, without going to 2 cameras.

HF
Hunter Fort
Oct 19, 2016

I work for MOBOTIX and we offer a dual lens Thermal Camera. 6MP color or b/w sensor combined with Thermal Sensor. See youtube link for real life demo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxirTq-sbn8

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 19, 2016
IPVM

Hunter, does your thermal camera deliver detection at 250+ meters? If so, share the specific model number. If not, I will delete your post as it is not answering the member's request.

HF
Hunter Fort
Oct 19, 2016

of course it does or I would not have responded. Our thermal products do detection out to 500meters (as seen in the youtube video i linked). MOBOTIX offers 3 different HFOV thermal lenses - 45, 25, and 17. Only our 25 and 17 degree Thermal sensors are capable of human detection past 250 meters.

M15-Thermal-L65 is the 25 degree. Human detection to 370meters max

M15-Thermal-L135 is 17 degree. Human detection to 560 meters max.

Vehicle detection is of course much further. Also to note, with all thermals, one should factor in Fog/Rain scenarios as this will diminish detection distances.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Oct 19, 2016
IPVMU Certified

What's the angle of view on that thermal?

Is it more than 13 degrees?

Zoom thermal lenses get pricey no? How does that affect your calculation at bottom?

JS
John Saunders
Oct 19, 2016
IPVMU Certified

No question price will get to be a factor if I end up having to go to thermal. But it may be the best option. FLIR, Sight Logix, Axis, at a minimum provide thermals that meet the operational criteria.

I have never used the Bosch Starlight series, which make some pretty strong claims about how well they operate in extremely low light.

HF
Hunter Fort
Oct 19, 2016

In the case of the Mobotix Thermal Cameras - They are all fixed FOV as mentioned (45, 25, and 17 HFOV). The narrower (in the case of our products) is actually the lesser cost due to the amount of the Germanium lens needed. The wider the FOV the higher the cost. Not sure if everyone else works this way.

JH
John Honovich
Oct 19, 2016
IPVM

Not looking for wide - maybe 13 deg AoV.

13° AoV is fairly narrow for conventional cameras. On an average 1/3" imager, that would be a ~21mm focal length. Most stock lenses won't do that. Add on ones will but likely with higher F stops / poorer low light. Net/net, I don't think color only (even the 'best' color only) will work at that range / width combination.

U
Undisclosed #1
Oct 19, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Not fixed, but newer technology is IR laser illumination. Some Dahua's claim 500m, like this one.

Is the camera fixed focal length as well?

Never tried or seen a review, so beware.

HF
Hunter Fort
Oct 19, 2016

Total Cost of ownership should be considered here. For example does it make more sense to consider Thermal cameras for this distance detection than the $$$ it costs over time to power IR illumination 24/7 night time usage over the life intended for the application? Plus you need high end IR Illuminator in this scenario and fairly high end camera

Seems a thermal camera will outperform and cost less over say 4,5 or even longer years of use? no?

750' with high end Optical camera ~$750-$1000 or more

High end IR Illuminator ~ $750-$1200 (I may be off here, Input from others?)

Power bill over the life of the system???? $500, more?

Thermal camera choice ~$2,500-$4,500 depending on manufacture and features.

Detection is improved immediately and more accurate IMO.

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MM
Michael Miller
Oct 19, 2016

What is the light level at the target area? We have a number of Avigilon PRO cameras with Lightcatcher technology watching parking lots that are 1000+ ft away in full color at night time with zero motion blur.

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JS
John Saunders
Oct 19, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Haven't had an opportunity to perform a light survey yet. My best guess right now is, "some, but not a great deal...." That's the technical description, of course <g>.

Avatar
Jeffrey Hinckley
Oct 20, 2016

The Hikvision DS-2cd6026 with the F0.95 7-33mm lens is one of the best lowlight cameras I have evaluated. 16 degrees or about 50m FOV at that range. Some light and this may be work well.

IPVM has a test on this camera.

U
Undisclosed #1
Oct 20, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Found this video on a Dahua IR laser PTZ claiming 600M range.

Hard to say how much ambient light there is though.

RH
Richard Hemzal
Oct 24, 2016

When follow original John question if detection i possible then answer is YES - easily! it does many camera from ExView HAD era already. Question is in fact just about light in scene and FOV angle.
Mentioned PTZ with laser module will do that in total dark, as mentioned Dahua SD6AL230F-HNI.

If light conditions in requested FOV are ok then no need to put there any laser module with PTZ, and modern STARVIS sensors will be good choice. Just I have to note that you will choose some PTZ cause there is long focus mostly accessible and some anti-shacking features realy welcomed.

If your place is field (or forest!) then realy have to need to know FOV/angle and laser module is necessary. Laser modules are made with different focus and module which have controlled focus (same as motorized varifocal in camera) are more expensive than modules which have fixed angle for their light.

We made some range tests already in 2010 with laser modules vs. ExView cameras and detection on 250m realy not problem - some level of person recognition was possible on 150m quite safely. Laser module used 5 deg. divergence and 2,5W declared output at 808nm. Camera was Sony FCB-EX1010P (3,4 mm-122,4 mm, 1/4" !! Exview HAD)

F.e. put in alibaba.com "laser PTZ" and will get couple of today solutions....

With laser is of course issue that you have to for strong laser module restrict access to people from near distance not to hurt eye of anybody (cause energy density becoming higher). F.e. laser we have used should not be seen directly from distance shorter than ~2,5m it means must be installed at least ~4,5m above ground... And additionaly IR lights sources (any) aging - mean reducing his output power - life time is usualy counted to be lest then 10k hours, so about lest then 3 years (depends on usage). Hmm... not every time mentioned by suppliers of any IR light equipment.

And have to mention - also we did some project where simply customer using strongh white ligth ;-) so no games with IR laser necessary ... depends on your case.

BTW laser module is made from laser diode and difussing lense - so again in fact can call it LED. There is NOT any CO2 tubes as in laser cutting machines .... realy not so dangerous ;-) If follow some basic advices it is completely safe.

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