Las Vegas Shootings: How Does One Secure Against Such A Risk At An Event?

JH
John Honovich
Oct 02, 2017
IPVM

Given the shooter fired from a hotel room across and into the a concert, how does one secure such an event or against such a risk?

It is one thing to secure against threats going into an event but, by definition, people outside of an event are harder to secure / protect against, short of not having an event that is physically not hear any such point (i.e., nearby hotel or building, etc.).

UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Oct 02, 2017

I wonder if there is mobile (rapid deploy) shot detection systems. At least if the security detail could hone in on where shots are coming from, might save some lives?

(1)
BF
Byron Fanger
Oct 09, 2017

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/boomerang/

(1)
Avatar
Campbell Chang
Oct 11, 2017

I thought they identified where he was pretty quickly.  The problem was he had cameras looking down the hall and opened fire on the guards through his door so they needed to wait for SWAT

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Oct 02, 2017

My first question was what kind of glass are they using that this guy was able to break it.  I wonder if this will lead to the use of glass break sensors in places they are not typically used.   

(1)
(4)
UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Oct 02, 2017

I don't think the Hotels or Building management/owners would ever budget for this unless it was mandated or funded by Government.

(13)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #7
Oct 02, 2017

Agree 100%.

If Schools had been mandated to use ballistic glass, imagine how many lives would have been saved at Sandy Hook

It's just amazing to me schools are still being built without that specified 

(7)
(1)
U
Undisclosed #14
Oct 03, 2017

What do you do if the shooter gets inside the school and barricades themselves in there? now the police cannot use a sniper to get him from the outside and the shooter has free reign inside

(1)
(1)
Avatar
Joseph Marotta
Oct 04, 2017
IPVMU Certified

There are standard methods for breaching doors, walls and windows that can be used.

(1)
Avatar
Brandon Knutson
Oct 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

You have good intentions, but I disagree.

It is very easy for outsiders to enter public schools. Imagine this scenario in a well fortified school... Bad guy conceals his firearm. Walks up to the entry intercom surrounded by ballistic glass. Says "I'd like to talk to someone about registering my son here next year." He's buzzed in and you can imagine the rest. Best case is the office staff were able to activate automated lockdown doors to limit his targets.

Ballistic glass is nice to have to counter the effects of a vehicle-bourne IED. Even then, start with vehicle stand-off bollards. Ballistic glass is pretty darn expensive too.

My credentials to answer this question: former LEO, 25 years as a security director, currently working on project to retro-fit schools for better security; wife is an elementary school office manager. 

(4)
(1)
(1)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #7
Oct 06, 2017

The majority who disagree miss my point entirely.

The deranged 14 yr kid who shot up Sandy Hook gained entry by breaking the glass pane next to the locked door that was monitored by video cameras

Had that glass neen ballistic, he would not have easily gained entry into the school, and IMO, innocent lives would have been saved

Avatar
Christian Laforte
Oct 10, 2017

I don't think so. He could have easily waited until the kids were coming out or out of school through the main door, and started his rampage then.

(1)
U
Undisclosed #15
Oct 04, 2017

What about the roof, or open garage, up in a large tree?

What if the next guy has a helicopter?

 

Avatar
Joe Mirolli
Oct 09, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I think glass break detectors would be cost prohibitive, however detecting HVAC loss of of positive pressure would probably be much more cost effective and require less implementation. 

(1)
GG
George Grammer
Oct 02, 2017

He got the guns into the hotel. Come ISC West we all will be going through metal detectors just to check in.

(7)
(2)
(1)
JH
John Honovich
Oct 02, 2017
IPVM

George, interesting thought. Given that these hotels have so many entrances, I wonder of the logistical complexity and cost of implementing that. In other words, will the hotels really accept doing that?

(5)
(1)
(1)
Avatar
Brian Karas
Oct 02, 2017
IPVM

Even if they accept it, will it really solve the problem?

You'd have to Xray all the luggage coming in, metal detectors would be too coarse.

On top of that, you'd have to have operators than can recognize a rifle broken down to fairly small components.  You can strip an AR-15 down to a lot of small pieces pretty easy.  Scatter that across a couple of suitcases, and a couple of boxes shipped to the hotel, and it becomes really hard to find.  Plus, you have to scan every person entering every time, otherwise you could just carry the components in slowly undetected.

Then what do you do about parking garages? They make good high-ground vantage points also.  What about all forms of improvised munitions? Guns are not the only way to inflict mass casualties.

 

(11)
(2)
U
Undisclosed #5
Oct 02, 2017

Is it illegal to take firearms in your hotel room?

JH
Jay Hobdy
Oct 02, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I highly doubt it. I know some hotels have a no fire arm policy and the worst that could probably happen there is they kick you out.

(6)
(1)
MR
Matthew Rivera
Oct 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Not illegal usually.  What I have seen is that a place of business will have a ban on guns on the premises.  If they find you with one, they ask you to leave and if you don't leave, law enforcement is called and you are sited for trespassing. 

(5)
(1)
Avatar
John Bredehoft
Oct 12, 2017
Bredemarket / Incode Technologies

It could be argued that such a move could help transparency, so that the business owner (the hotel owner in this case) knows exactly what is being brought onto the premises. If someone brings a pistol into the business, the business would know that. If someone brings over 20 weapons into the business, the business would know that.

 

However, this could conceivably smash up against privacy concerns. Say for example that I am a medical marijuana patient in a state where medical marijuana is legal. Does the business really need to know what I'm bringing on to the premises?

 

Certainly the privacy advocates are going to have arguments regarding any type of detection system.

JS
John Stenmo
Oct 02, 2017

Unfortunately, I have to agree. If someone is hell bent on this type of destruction, they will engineer a way to get all of the parts and pieces in to put it in place. Grenades, gas, radioactive, there are so many threats. I don't think there is an answer for this. Just sad. 

(4)
Avatar
Gary Tryon
Oct 03, 2017
ReddWare

When traveling and working in the Middle East, many of the hotels I stayed in used X-ray's at all entrances. Both luggage and packages were X-rayed. True you can break a weapon down to smaller pieces, maybe analytics in the X-ray software could detect parts and pieces of a weapon.  In this case with the amount of weapons; X-rays at the entrances could have detected his guns, deterred his choice of locations or made him choose a different location to carry out his evil.  It's easy to have hindsight, but in many cases deterrents are effective.  Other comments below using a parking garage or other locations that are easily accessible would be harder to secure then a hotel.  My prayers go out to the victims.  

(3)
(1)
(1)
Avatar
Brian Karas
Oct 02, 2017
IPVM

 Come ISC West we all will be going through metal detectors just to check in.

I'm sure you meant "Knightscope K1 weapons scanners", right?

 

(9)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #6
Oct 02, 2017

It isn't illegal to have a gun in a hotel - the backlash on this would be amazing.

(6)
(1)
JE
Jim Elder
Oct 09, 2017
IPVMU Certified

This depends on State law. Some laws prohibit firearms if the sign is posted. Others prohibit guns in specific venues such as schools and courthouses.

Avatar
Chad Cooper, PSP
Oct 04, 2017
N/a

George,

ASIS this year we all passed by “explosive detection” at each entry point. I don’t know if anyone else noticed this dog service running full time.

(1)
(1)
RS
Robert Shih
Oct 04, 2017
Independent

In case anyone was wondering, I was that weird Asian guy who hugged them every time they came by. No, I was not taste testing them. :P

(1)
(5)
Avatar
Brian Rhodes
Oct 02, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Reportedly the smoke alarm went off in his room, triggered by the smoke from the gun barrel:

As the gunman, identified as Stephen Paddock, set off round after round, gun smoke filled his room on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay hotel, said Randy Sutton, a retired lieutenant with the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, citing police sources.

The SWAT team used the alarm triggered by the smoke to zero in on Paddock's position in about 20 minutes - not nearly enough time for a floor-by-floor search of the hotel, which has 3,309 rooms and a 135,000-square-foot casino.

Based on the indexed fire alarm, police knew where the shooter was.

Many sources indicate the shooter used at least one fully automatic machine gun, which would fill a room with smoke fairly fast.

(10)
(1)
Avatar
John Bredehoft
Oct 12, 2017
Bredemarket / Incode Technologies

I'm responding on October 12, and by now we've heard that someone was reporting shots specifically on the 32nd floor minutes BEFORE the person began shooting at the music crowd. The challenge, of course, is getting all of these sorts of disparate information (report of shots fired, smoke detector, bullets at the festival, etc.) into actionable intelligence VERY quickly.

Avatar
Brandon Knutson
Oct 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I doubt they had one, but the way to speed up actionable intelligence is a unified command ("fusion") center dedicated to the music fest.

(1)
(1)
Avatar
John Bredehoft
Oct 12, 2017
Bredemarket / Incode Technologies

Even then, the very nature of the episode would present its challenges. Someone shooting a gun inside the Mandalay Bay may or may not be connected to the music festival.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Oct 02, 2017

Where did the shooter obtain 8 high power assault weapons? The right to protect yourself sure but this is mental...next somebody will start tossing hand grenades...RIP those who perished... 

(3)
(4)
(7)
UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Oct 02, 2017

Don't make this a gun issue. It's a fu##ing lunatic issue.

(15)
(5)
(2)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Oct 02, 2017

I agree, a lunatic with a bunch of guns...how can this not be a gun issue?

(3)
(2)
(5)
JH
John Honovich
Oct 02, 2017
IPVM

#3, in America, guns are quite a topic and draw passionate responses, e.g., Guns Now Allowed Inside Public Building (Schools, Hospitals, Libraries) Unless They Buy More Security

(1)
(1)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Oct 03, 2017

I'm well aware of this John and follow this topic in the news with great interest. I've also learned that in Nevada you don't require an license for a semi-automatic weapon but you are requested to register automatic weapons. I still think that the easier it is to obtain a weapon the more likely gun based crimes will happen.

(3)
(2)
(1)
(1)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Oct 04, 2017

I'm trying to comprehend how someone could disagree with this. More and more high profile Americans are again calling for tighter gun regulation. A weapon for self defense, sure, how many have managed to stop a massacre from happening because the carry a weapon for self defense? I own a double barrel shotgun myself so I'm not against gun ownership. There just isn't an excuse for owning assault rifles and all that sh@t...

I'll leave it at that before the 'this is not Facebook' police arrives...

(3)
(4)
(1)
JH
John Honovich
Oct 04, 2017
IPVM

tighter gun regulation.

I think the best argument for not debating gun regulation here is that as security professionals, whether you are for or against gun regulation, we cannot impact that. However, we can, accepting the political situation as is (whether that is good or bad), can help recommend tactics to improve security given the situation that presents itself.

UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Oct 02, 2017

The same way a knife, machete or a vehicle-bourne attack are not about the tools the lunatic uses. To blame these tools or guns, is to not look at the root-cause of the attack. 

(6)
(2)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #7
Oct 02, 2017

The same way a knife, machete or a vehicle-bourne attack are not about the tools the lunatic uses. To blame these tools or guns, is to not look at the root-cause of the attack.

 

Or drive a a rented box truck through a crowd of people, or buy a barrel full of nitrate fertilizer and soak it with high octane fuel, or.... well you get the idea

Most of the press knee jerk reaction is "let's ban guns, then the problem goes away"

(6)
(1)
(1)
(1)
U
Undisclosed #12
Oct 03, 2017

Violence can't be stopped entirely by banning weapons, but for some reason nuclear weapons for example aren't allowed for personal use, even though the same logic could be applied to them. There is apparently some fine line of "I guess we can let you play with this although it's entirely out of proportion and useless for your daily life" when it comes to armament in the US

Where I live someone would immediately call the police if they saw someone carrying a handgun, so seeing people walk around casually with assault rifles feels very weird indeed. "Personal defense" argument makes me laugh.

(3)
(3)
(2)
UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Oct 03, 2017

Bad example. Nuclear weapons are dangerous to the community even when they sit idle in your garage.

I wrote a lengthy reply, but erased it. My educational logic will not help those with a narrow view that just want to help stop these shootings. I am getting frustrated by the lack of constitutional and firearm knowledge by many US citizens, that is being perpetuated by the media.

Keep laughing.

(8)
(3)
(2)
(2)
U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 04, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Most of the press knee jerk reaction is "let's ban guns"...

Let them have their guns, let's just take their bullets ;)

(1)
(7)
(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #18
Oct 06, 2017

I think it was Chris Rock who said just make the bullets $10,000 each.  Someone would have to be really pissed off to want to shoot someone.

(1)
(2)
(3)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Oct 03, 2017

I have to agree...

(3)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Oct 03, 2017

Which brings us to longer wait times for the purchasing of guns and better background checks.  Don't get me wrong, I own a gun and enjoy going out to the shooting range but at some point, enough is enough.  We as a society have forgotten how to communicate with each other, Hollywood has desensitized killing, and made being a gangster or revenge (killing) cool!  So yeah, this is definitely a gun issue.  I'm not saying take away our guns, I'm saying lets make sure we know who is buying them. (yes, unfortunately buying guns on the street is possible.. sigh)

(2)
(3)
(1)
(1)
JH
John Honovich
Oct 02, 2017
IPVM

Pictures of broken windows at the Mandalay bay:

I did not see any explanation about why 2 windows were broken or if both were for the gunman.

(1)
UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Oct 02, 2017

I read the lunatic rented two rooms, so that could be the second room. Also heard ISIS has taken responsibility and the lunatic converted to ISLAM two months ago and his girlfriend was in the Philippines at the time of the attack. I'm sure we'll have better into soon.

(1)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #9
Oct 03, 2017

(7)
UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Oct 02, 2017

Imagine if this had been a coordinated attack with multiple shooters. Many more would be dead. Imagine how easy it would be to plan such a coordinated attack.

It's time to move these soft target events to locations that are more hardened from an elevated or vehicle-bourne attack. 

(2)
(2)
(1)
(1)
PS
Paul Shah
Oct 02, 2017

Clark County has been preparing for terrorist attacks.

They have been in the process of installing safety measures for sidewalks on the strip:

Clark County commissioners on Tuesday gave staff the green light to pursue bids to install 700 bollards along parts of Las Vegas Boulevard. The permanent steel posts, which would be equidistant apart and connected to one another underneath the sidewalk, are designed to withstand the impact of a 15,000-pound vehicle — think a 30-foot moving truck — traveling at 50 miles per hour.

(2)
(6)
SD
Shannon Davis
Oct 02, 2017
IPVMU Certified

There is no 100% way to prevent such an attack no matter the means of the attack. You prepare for 10 scenarios and the attacker thinks of number 11 that you didn't. Unfortunately this is what we have to deal with in this day and age. You do your due diligence for the event you are planning and hope for the best. This is no different than the odds of a plane crashing. How many events like this have their been without issues. This is an unfortunate reality for us. The biggest deterrent is everyone keeping an eye out for what appears to be out of place. See something say something.

(13)
(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Oct 02, 2017

We should probably leave the gun debate to other platforms.  IPVM is not Facebook. We are security professionals around here, can we please stick to the security aspects?

Yes I know there is a security argument to be made, but human nature dictates that it will tail spin into a train wreck.  

(13)
UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Oct 02, 2017

Fair enough. Gun ownership is protected by the U.S. Constitution. Period.

(8)
(4)
(1)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #7
Oct 02, 2017

I'd agree with Glass breaks first off. Most hotel windows in Vegas don't open (unless they have a balcony) because of the suicide factor.

Glass breaks would be a cheaper option I believe than ballistic glass, which would another way to severely hamper a copy-cat gunman. 

The lawsuits that will hit Mandalay Bay in the coming weeks may well compel some of the risk managers and security directors to examine these options more closely 

(2)
(1)
(1)
Avatar
Kyle Folger
Oct 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Glass break detectors may have helped, but I doubt it. You would still have quite a bit of time to fire. The smoke alarm helped locate the shooter just as well. If that hadn't gone off, there would have been a greater delay in discovering the location of the shooter. Plus, this would only potentially help in this situation.

You can also have an open concert area near a parking garage. This may provide a good vantage point. You would probably get detected by cameras in the garage that might help detect suspicious activity. Not all garages have cameras though.

You can almost never plan for every single situation that some lunatic can decide to carry out if they are smart enough and plan well enough.

(1)
SD
Shannon Davis
Oct 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

You could easily circumvent a glass break and the false alarms would be tremendous to do screaming kids jumping all over the rooms, loud music from parties.. the list goes on. You could easily break the window without setting off the glass break. Put the bed up against the window and no one would know. Now a gun going off would certainly set off a glass break but there again this could probably be muffled as well. I have installed thousands of glass breaks over the years and ever since these have gone digital I have had several not go off due to broken glass and the sensor was installed per manufacturer directions. To me if I have to put a glass break into test mode to test then there is the first problem. Give me the old Intellisense analog GB any day. Again to my other post... See something say something. That is truly the best defense against any attack that may happen.

(2)
(2)
U
Undisclosed #15
Oct 04, 2017

A device, perhaps a laser could be designed to scan all of the windows repeatedly. Imagine a camera with analytics and a laser mounted outside of the building on a mast that continuously verifies all windows are intact. Each window could have a small reflector that allows the system to determine the window is intact. The camera is an additional layer.

In a building located in a downtown you would have to mount these systems on opposing buildings on all for sides to capture the entire surface of the buildings glass or openings.

4 devices for 1 building. Skyscrapers can have a thousand windows. This is a good foot print. To cover vertical buildings of 70 plus floors the system will need additional laser and camera to angle and cover the higher floors.

I dislike glass breaks.

 

 

UE
Undisclosed End User #19
Oct 08, 2017

I think you are on to something. Combine shot detection with lasers, we can slew to que a camera in the direction of a shot why not a laser or perhaps a spot light.

Avatar
Christian Laforte
Oct 10, 2017

Several companies developed military-grade and prototypes to detect broken windows and snipers. (Including us.) But the ROI isn't great. Some companies have built sniper detection features. They detect the scope reflection in specific wavelengths (IR IIRC), or use very expensive directional microphones to pinpoint the direction of the sniper. This makes a lot of sense for wide area surveillance (e.g. Iraq) but wouldn't have worked against this active shooter. I assume he didn't need the scope if he shot in the crowd. In any case, providing a few seconds advance notice isn't much of a win to justify the cost of equipping public venues with such systems.

Christian

Avatar
Christian Laforte
Oct 10, 2017

New idea: Assuming we can easily detect a broken window followed by gunshot, would there be an effective and cost-effective deterrent, e.g. aiming a very strong laser at the window to blind the people inside? 

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #8
Oct 03, 2017

What worries me, is that law enforcement could just as well have burst into the hotel room to find a gun connected to an internet connection and some kind of mechanical attachment allowing the gun to be remotely operated and the offender to strike again on another day. If someone is sufficiently technically inclined and with an unfortunate psychological profile...  this may not be hard to do.

Today, if a single gunman can injure 500 people single-handedly, without sophisticated technology, imagine how much damage could have been done using technology that has emerged over the last several years e.g. drones, deep learning, software, internet, modern GPUs/CPUs etc

It seems that technology is still following a Moore's law trend, i.e. exponentially improving while becoming cheaper and cheaper.

My concern is this: In the 1940s to end the lives of 50k people in a single event, it took the resources of an entire nation e.g. the Manhatten project. How many individuals and purchasing power would be required using modern technology to kill the same number today? and if it is a trend, when does this destructive power fall into the hands of just one individual? We could be there already and we wouldn't necessarily know. One problem is, while groups of individuals e.g. terrorist cells, can be infiltrated, and communications intercepted, it is very hard to detect lone wolves.

I really hope government agencies are putting a lot of thought into this. Allowing law enforcement to block all communications, internet and otherwise, in a particular city area, as a way of thwarting potential remote control attacks, might be a good place to start.

(1)
U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Allowing law enforcement to block all communications, internet and otherwise, in a particular city area, as a way of thwarting potential remote control attacks, might be a good place to start.

Though as you say, with the state of technology today, an attack wouldn't even need to be remote-controlled.  An autonomous system containing a wide-angle camera motion triggering a PTZ platform to aim and fire an automatic weapon is certainly within the technical and financial reach of many dangerous organizations.  

Avatar
Joseph Marotta
Oct 04, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Even a belt-fed automatic weapon has malfunctions such as ammo jams and mis-feeds. An operator needs to physically be there to clear these issues or the weapon is rendered inoperable. While serving in the military I've fired many belt-fed M60 machine guns. Although one person can run it, it really needs a crew of 2 people for sustained firing. One feeds and manages the ammo belts, the other runs the gun. Trying to successfully operate an automatic weapon for a sustained period of time via remote control really isn't as practical as the movies wants us believe.

(1)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #8
Oct 05, 2017

Yes, but all you are really saying is that it is beyond the capabilities of most people. But for someone sufficiently inventive, sufficiently resourced and motivated, the technology at their disposal keeps increasing...

future crimes :Marc Goodman

 

U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 05, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Well, it's not like they aren't using them already, e.g. CROWS:

Admittedly, though it is fully remote, in this type of deployment, jams could be cleared manually.

Still, I'm thinking if it jammed even occasionally, it would to reduce the benefit of the setup substantially.  

(1)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #8
Oct 05, 2017

A remote control machine gun is just one scenario, probably not the most practical. My original point was technology is constantly providing more options to criminals and terrorists, and they will surely use it to their advantage. Drones, self driving cars, artificial intelligence... I am thinking of some scenarios that I wouldn't even want to publish on a forum, and none of them would be preventable by run-of-the-mill security products.

 

(1)
JH
John Honovich
Oct 03, 2017
IPVM

ASIS Interview recommends shot spotting:

There was a technology on the show floor at ASIS in Dallas. It's a shot-spotting technology that integrates with other physical security systems, identifies with high rates of accuracy the location of the shooter, and then with integration into other physical security systems rapidly turns cameras toward the source of gunfire.

The question though is whether or not shot spotting could identify the exact room or floor. Presumably, they knew that it was coming from the hotel but the issue was pinpointing it.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #11
Oct 03, 2017

I don’t think you can.  I can think of many sporting events, including Grand Prix racing where hotels and spectators are in abundance. 

Avatar
Joseph Marotta
Oct 04, 2017
IPVMU Certified

With regards to a hotel environment, maybe a shot spotter device at each end of every corridor would help pinpoint a location?

JH
John Honovich
Oct 04, 2017
IPVM

maybe a shot spotter device at each end of every corridor would help pinpoint a location?

There are competitive products that are designed for indoor gun shot detection. The main concern, even what that, is the cost to put it on every floor given the relative rareness of this type of event.

Avatar
Brandon Knutson
Oct 04, 2017
IPVMU Certified

One of the reasons I've started using indoor Hanwha Wisenet X series cameras is their built-in gunshot detection analytic. I haven't field tested the analytic yet (our police shooting blanks). The fixed lens version was only $300-ish each. 

Hotels could also use the camera's scream analytic, I can't because school kids scream, a lot. 

(2)
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Oct 03, 2017

Could rooms be fitted with an 'acoustic' based detector as well as a Smoke detector if there was such a thing? Something that detects either anything above a certain db level or a certain sound pattern, short and sharp etc. I realize there are things as silencers etc that would be more difficult to detect. 

U
Undisclosed #12
Oct 03, 2017

I think even a silenced weapon should be very easy to detect as it's still quite loud. There could be some legal problems (or general distrust) if it was implemented by recording audio 24/7, though.

(Edit: in response to Undisclosed Manufacturer #3)

Avatar
Cameron Javdani
Oct 03, 2017
Louroe Electronics

Hi Louroe guy here.

Yes, it is possible to outfit rooms with this type of acoustic detection.  Either a simple dB level alert or a more advanced gunshot detection algorithm are both possible. 

The issue I see being problematic aside from the very legitimate privacy concerns, is that there are all kinds of loud noises that will give you a detection based on dB level alone.  As the the detection algorithms become more precise to listen for specific sounds like gunshots, the price increases rapidly.  That's not to say such a technology can't be done, only that doing so requires a great deal of consideration of the exact type of sound to listen for, and the types of sounds that will regularly be heard.

What we've found from customers using our level detection products and gunshot detection products is that the more controlled an environment is acoustically, the more straightforward the alarms are to manage.

(1)
MD
Matthew Davis
Oct 03, 2017

 

It was stated on the news that the smoke alarm went off in the attackers room during the event and that led authorities to his location.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #16
Oct 04, 2017
JH
John Honovich
Oct 03, 2017
IPVM

From Tom McElroy CPP, recommendation:

Let's consider how the Shooter was able to keep his weapons hidden in the guest room during his 4 day stay.. Where was Housekeeping ..? Did they not service the room..? If the room was serviced, was anything unusual observed (multiple bags for 1 person, furniture moved, etc.) Is there a viable solution ..? I think so.. First, policy should be written and published that, without exception, every guest room must and will be entered every day by Housekeeping or Engineering. This can be for QA purposes, trash and garbage removal, PM, cleaning, etc..

It is an interesting suggestion though I wonder how guests will take it if they have to allow hotel personnel to enter their rooms every day. Some people genuinely want privacy and this would create tension with that desire. 

(3)
(1)
U
Undisclosed #12
Oct 03, 2017

It would be problematic indeed. If the "Do not disturb" sign on the door handle didn't mean anything, it would make me nervous at least. For such checks you'd need to enter the room at random times too, so the evildoer couldn't simply schedule their actions to avoid suspicion.

However, if there ever will be some good way of deterring these types of attacks, I believe it's most likely going to be a very low-tech way instead of gadgets.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #11
Oct 03, 2017

In an effort to promote “green” and help the environment, Marriott rewards program members with points for every night they elect to not have housekeeping.  I believe it’s mandetory after 3 or 4 days though. 

I know several people that keep the do not disturb sign up their entire stay.

(3)
(1)
U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Let's consider how the Shooter was able to keep his weapons hidden in the guest room during his 4 day stay...

Who said he needed to keep them hidden?

 

Avatar
Brian Karas
Oct 03, 2017
IPVM

I generally have the "Do Not Disturb" sign on my door for the length of a stay at most hotels. I do not want housekeeping in my room everyday, once every 3-4 days at most.

I definitely do not want housekeepers making some judgement call about what is "normal" for travelers. I am not even sure if they could be reasonably expected to do this, I have traveled with multiple bags, or odd crates at time (demo equipment, etc.). I have also seen other people with what looks like odd or excessive luggage on many occasions.

This still does not get down to the fact that you could hide a couple of rifles in a hotel room pretty easily (there is no way anyone is going to submit to housekeeping being able to open locked luggage, etc.). The average hotel mini-safe can hold 5 or 6 40 round AR-15 magazines easily, plus maybe a few boxes of ammo (and your valet ticket, losing that is a huge hassle).

(1)
(1)
(1)
U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I have traveled with multiple bags, or odd crates at time (demo equipment, etc.).

Yet this has not gone unnoticed: Brian Karas Lives ... And He Has A Huge Battery Backpack ;)

Avatar
Brian Karas
Oct 03, 2017
IPVM

Technically it was not a backpack, more like the size of motorcycle battery.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #11
Oct 03, 2017

Of course, if there is a hunting or gun show in the area .... what is normal versus unusual?

I too have travelled with packages many would consider different. 

JH
John Honovich
Oct 08, 2017
IPVM

Update: Steve Wynn talking specifically about 'do not disturb' signs and how they don't allow them for more than a short period of time:

The Las Vegas gunman, Stephen Paddock, reportedly was holed up in his suite at the Mandalay Bay for three days, instituting a type of “do not disturb” policy that Wynn says would have alerted his Wynn Resorts staff to investigate.

“We also have rules about do not disturb,” Wynn said.  “If a room goes on do not disturb for more than 12 hours, we investigate.  We constantly -- we don't allow guns in this building unless they're being carried by our employees and there's a lot of them.  But if anybody's got a gun and we find them continually, we eject them from the hotel.”

(1)
Avatar
John Bredehoft
Oct 12, 2017
Bredemarket / Incode Technologies

Interesting scenario, which again potentially pits public safety advocates against privacy advocates. There are an untold number of legitimate reasons why someone would put up a "do not disturb" sign for more than 12 hours. And how proactive is the staff in its "investigations"?

 

HOTEL EMPLOYEE: Excuse me, you've had a "Do Not Disturb" sign up for more than 12 hours.

HOTEL GUEST: Um...yeah. I drank a lot last night...my head hurts.

HOTEL EMPLOYEE: Well, that SWAT team is coming in right now to make sure you don't have nuclear weapons. Put your hands up where we can see them...

(1)
UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Oct 03, 2017

It should be clear (at least to us older Americans) that society has created the ever increasing issue of mass shootings. Guns have had the ability to shoot quickly and with easy reloads for over 100 years. The root cause of these mass killings is not guns. Banning guns in the US has not and will not have a positive effect. Banning guns has only amounted to a political trophy. We have been a very divided, anti-social, no common goal, narcissistic nation for many years. 

Deranged or evil humans are legally very hard to stop pre-attack. The only way to stop mass shootings is for good guys to respond very quickly with adequate force. I am not making this up. This is not my opinion. I have studied and taught Active Shooters courses so I know more than some but not as much as others. Faster response is where we need to focus.

As for how to solve our societal issues? This is only my opinion, make mandatory military or non-military federal service mandatory. We severely need a common bond in the US.

(5)
(3)
(3)
(1)
JH
John Honovich
Oct 03, 2017
IPVM

#4, if you don't want us to talk about gun control, I'd ask you to stop posting about guns on this thread, since your continued posts only make the issue more prominent.

(3)
UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Oct 03, 2017

Understood. I was frustrated by some of the well intentioned but misguided responses. Stopping mass shootings has been a very personal topic for me since I lost a family member during a mass shooting in a kids pizza restaurant. 

(1)
(1)
U
Undisclosed #12
Oct 03, 2017

I am very sorry for your loss.

MD
Matthew Davis
Oct 03, 2017

I'm sure after the investigation is done, somebody didn't do their job and will take the heat. You can always have systems and procedures in place but you can bet when humans are involved something is going to get overlooked.

Avatar
Brandon Knutson
Oct 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

An attempt to reply to John's original post...

I get nervous about large privately held / funded events. What's their security budget and depth of planning like?  

I have no reason to believe this event didn't follow DHS' related hotel, special event, vehicle ramming and soft target guidance products.

Critical questions that must now be addressed in the planning phase of these outdoor events are: 

1) If a sizable attack occurred at the event, are there more exits (than legally required) for the crowd to rapidly exit to safety?

2) How can mass notification products be used? (Maybe police or security command staff can remotely override the PA system and give situational awareness and directions)

3) Should we have unified command posts at these events? (In this case, police, fire and security from nearby hotels)

4) Should pyrotechnics be banned at these events? (So we are more situationally aware of a real threat)

5) Is there enough security and police to adequately respond to a deadly threat in a timely manner?

In this case it's understandable with the suspect being in a hotel room might have slowed the police response down. The gunman’s exact location took police 72 minutes to reach after the first 911 call and the SWAT team entered the hotel room 20 minutes after the team arrived at the hotel. In most active shooter situations, the first two arriving officers immediately attempt to neutralize the shooter. I'm not criticizing anything the police did and I think I understand why they waited for SWAT. A security officer was shot in the leg through the door by the suspect when first responders got to the hotel room.

(2)
(1)
(1)
BM
Bob McCarvill
Oct 03, 2017

I think hotels need to be more secure. Something like metal detectors at the doors and only allowing entry through the front doors. People shouldn't need much more than computers, clothes, and small amounts of food. It wouldn't be that hard to implement a small search upon entry.

(2)
(1)
Avatar
Brian Karas
Oct 03, 2017
IPVM

I think that is an over-reaction.  What about people who have to leave their homes for some period of time? (e.g.: fire, flood, loss of power, etc.). It seems very reasonable that these people would bring things like firearms, or other random things with them into a hotel. Metal detectors at the doors would not be sufficient, you would really need x-ray machine. Who is going to pay for this TSA-like hotel security infrastructure?

Also, it is not like hotels have become some strategic vantage point for launching attacks. JFK was also shot from a high-rise building, should we really just make any entrance into a tall building subject to an intensive search? (FYI, I think the answer to that is "no").

 

Avatar
Brandon Knutson
Oct 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Agreed. Move these massive concerts / outdoor events from beneath tall buildings. This attack happened because a massive target rich environment was there and now it is more likely to reoccur. This is an event security matter, not a hotel security matter. 

(1)
Avatar
Brian Karas
Oct 03, 2017
IPVM

Move them where? To large outdoor locations where someone can drive up a fertilizer bomb, or fly a malicious drone over the venue? To tightly restricted areas where a fire or explosion (intentional or not) limits egress?

What solution to the location for large gatherings actually increases net security instead of trading one risk for another?

Avatar
Brandon Knutson
Oct 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Not all security risks are an equal threat.

My #1 preference for such events is to hold them inside enclosed stadiums with pedestrian screenings.

Secondary to that are outdoor events outside of urban areas. Too much planning and coordination for urban outdoor events, too much opportunity for bad contingency planning. Not enough money for mitigation efforts for anything other than DHS designated National Special Security Events.

The primary vehicle-bourne IED mitigation is the same as vehicle ramming attacks. Keep the vehicles away from large pedestrian gatherings.

Drones are a real threat and have been used by ISIS to help them target conventional attacks and more recently to deliver light explosives. Currently most drones are limited to a one pound payload, but more expensive drones can carry up to 20 pounds. Mitigations are available, but I have no experience with their effectiveness. The upcoming drone terrorist threat will be chemical attacks delivered via drone. 

I do not trust low paid event staff for my safety, so I stay home a lot.

(2)
(1)
U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Casino hotel entrances are extremely busy already.  Adding a choke point/restricting ingress would likely result in a degraded customer experience.

(1)
FT
Filip Temmerman
Oct 04, 2017

Anyone experience with systems like these (uses sound propagation + triangulation to automatically locate shot origin and possibly automatic PTZ control)

https://www.genetec.com/about-us/news/press-center/press-releases/genetec-inc-integrates-shotspotter-gunshot-detection-technology-in-security-center

TH
Tom Hutchison
Oct 04, 2017

Make the check in procedure at the hotel similar to the procedure on cruise ships. You check your luggage in first at the entrance to the hotel and then proceed to the check in desk for room registration. Your luggage is the screened and delivered to your room.

(1)
Avatar
Brandon Knutson
Oct 04, 2017
IPVMU Certified

This concept is flawed unless your hotel floats off to sea. To circumvent this plan, the guest checks in with the luggage screening and that night brings in the "special luggage" from the car.

(1)
U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 04, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Your luggage is screened and delivered to your room.

Guns and all?

(1)
TH
Tom Hutchison
Oct 04, 2017

Surveillance and Security then have a procedure in place that allows them to stop anyone walking through the hotel or casino with luggage. Hotel and casino's have Surveillance Systems that control 1000's of cameras. 

(1)
Avatar
Joseph Marotta
Oct 04, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Three days before the Mandalay Bay shooting, I stayed 3 nights at that hotel for a BICSI convention. Thirteenth floor.

Although there was valet parking, for a smaller fee I chose to self-park in the multi story parking structure. To discontinue self-parking and only offer valet-only service in order to scan people/luggage would really slow down access in the most inconvenient way.

Mandalay Bay has CCTV cameras throughout the parking structure. A camera was discovered in each of the 24 hotel elevators. I lost count how many cameras I noticed in the lobby, corridors, casino area, restaurants, and food court. Lots of coverage. Probably only the casino cameras are monitored live, just my guess.

I left my luggage in the car and stood 30 minutes in the check-in line at the hotel lobby. Large open space check-in lobby at Mandalay with doors and floor-to-ceiling windows everywhere. Bullet proof glass? Doubt it, but these hotel casinos make pretty good money and can afford to have it installed if they so choose. Exits were clearly marked to my right and behind me, and an 'employee-only' corridor was in front of me. It's habit to look for these things everywhere I go...just in case I need a fast exit.

From the street level, there are so many doors leading into this hotel/casino it would be an arduous task to post security inspection points at each door. Casino/hotels make money by people coming in off the street to gamble, or eat at one of their many restaurants and clubs. Some have movie and live show theaters inside, etc.  Restricting the easy flow into a casino/hotel would negatively affect business (loss of money).

So how does one secure such a structure? I don't have that answer. It will take a balanced approach. Do we in the United States adopt the stricter European 'airport security'-type model by valet parking, body scans, x-ray machines, etc? Do we make 'laws' requiring hotels/casinos and certain other types of businesses to provide security guards and scanners at all entrances (at their own expense)?

In addition to businesses providing security for their customers, maybe we should put the responsibility for our own safety squarely on our own shoulders. Maybe we should be teaching people how to be more aware of their surroundings, how to detect possible bad situations, how to deter and/or avoid them, and if the worst happens, how to defend themselves.

As another person in this thread expressed, my heartfelt prayers go out for those who lost friends and loved ones in this horrible tragedy.

(1)
U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 05, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Thirteenth floor.

Labeled thirteenth, or fourteenth?

Avatar
Joseph Marotta
Oct 06, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Labeled Thirteenth, yes.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #17
Oct 05, 2017

Evidently not many heard the interview with security personnel associated with the Wynn, who said that the gunman would not have gotten through their hotels entracnces with the "systems" they have deployed. While he was very vague as to what they deploy it was obvious they had measures in place.

(2)
U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 05, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Steve Wynn said this:

"Las Vegas is a target city. We have hardened the target at the Wynn,” Wynn told 13 Action News. “This is the first time I’ve ever revealed this publicly … there’s a division in the Marine Corps of special people that are specially trained to guard the embassies. That’s a whole division with separate base, separate training. There are almost 40 of them at every opening of my building, plain clothes, armed, on the look-out, changing shift and being relieved every two hours so they don’t get bored.”

Wynn also said he implemented new covert security measures that became operational last summer. "We have another group of a half a dozen seals team six guys and CIA guys who are a counterterrorism unit that ... relate on a daily basis to Homeland Security, the FBI and Metro," he said. "My company has metal detectors and devices at every entrance of the building for employees and guests that are non-visible to the public. We have done extraordinary things to make that sure we protect our employees and our guests at the hotel."

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: Wynn Has Metal Detectors And Devices At Every Entrance Non-Visible To The Public?

(2)
Avatar
Joseph Marotta
Oct 06, 2017
IPVMU Certified

In light of the Las Vegas tragedy, this ASIS press room release includes a link to free "soft target and active shooter resources" that include strategies for securing soft targets such as hospitality venues, education, night clubs, etc.  Maybe there are some good ideas to be found there?  

https://www.asisonline.org/News/Press-Room/Press-Releases/2017/Pages/ASIS-Statement-on-Las-Vegas-Tragedy.aspx 

(1)
JH
John Honovich
Oct 07, 2017
IPVM

Some interesting details from the LA Times, including debate about whether the amount of luggage he brought in was atypical:

He checked in to the Mandalay Bay hotel on Sept. 28 and shuttled more than two dozen weapons to his two-room suite in more than 10 suitcases.

Although that behavior sounds unusual, it isn’t out of place in a town like Las Vegas, where media companies and other exhibitors shuttle in vast amounts of supplies for conventions and conferences, said Rep. Dina Titus (D-Nev.), who represents the Las Vegas Strip.

“These hotels have thousands of rooms with people in and out all the time,” Titus said. “Ten suitcases sounds like a lot if you’re staying at the Holiday Inn for the weekend. But convention and media companies bring boxes full of equipment.”

And an alarm and a guard's response:

Some time after Paddock began firing on the crowd, a door to another room on the 32nd floor was left ajar, triggering an alarm inside the hotel, McMahill said.

When Campos arrived to investigate the alarm, Paddock fired more than 200 rounds at him through his hotel door, striking the guard in the leg.

Police believe the alarm going off was a coincidence, McMahill told CNN. But Campos helped police locate Suite 135 rapidly, potentially cutting the attack short.

 

(1)
U
Undisclosed #15
Oct 09, 2017

Back in the day I have built Hoffman enclosures with casi-rusco panels, power supplies inside a Holiday Inn. We took up roller toolboxes, vacuums, all the parts n pieces. I remember picking out the metal burs in the carpet from the hole saws. 

:D

 

(1)
Avatar
Christopher Freeman
Oct 09, 2017

Sound Tracking , Laser Guided Assault Riffles provided to swatt 

No real way to assess Crazy , unless Your looking everywhere all the time , tracking all , invading Privacy , and locking down people s ability to acquire weapons 

Unless people are always paying attention to the signs and looking at situations around them , you will never see the sign of crazy. 

Track weapons, Track bags, track luggage , track attitudes , keep vigilant around crowds and areas of large gatherings 

signs of change in behavior 

There are lots of ways but they take away privacy and infringe on individual rights

Taking Guns away , just makes those who have them more powerful and Those who take, steal, criminalize more aggressive

 Dogs are the best , as they smell gun powder and smell out items of interest 

(1)
(1)
U
Undisclosed #15
Oct 09, 2017

Use the police force from the movie Idiocracy!

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #20
Oct 09, 2017

Since the windows typically do not open, how about wired windows similar to that of a wired screen. Grant you it would only provide an alert in this particular scenario and..... the additional cost would be somewhat substantial.

Avatar
Brian Karas
Oct 09, 2017
IPVM

With the metallic/reflective glazing on many of these windows, I would think you could literally attach a wire to either side of a window and detect breakage through changes in capacitance, or something similar. Would not even need to embed wires in the glass.

 

U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 09, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Grant you it would only provide an alert in this particular scenario...

And once the window is broken, it may be too late...

Avatar
Christopher Freeman
Oct 09, 2017

crazy , loony people , criminals don't care about laws , they are for good, honest, law abiding people

so laws don't stop anything. they just slow down the law abiding 

prevention, Identification, early detection, deterrence Does

ask a policeman , ask a fbi agent , ask a law enforcement officer 

 

(1)
U
Undisclosed #12
Oct 09, 2017

They stop the law abiding, while slowing down loonies who need to go through many law abiding people to get what they want, if we have it that way.

(^ reply to Christopher Freeman)

JH
John Honovich
Oct 09, 2017
IPVM

MAJOR NEWS change / update - Now, the Clark County sheriff is saying the security guard was shot before the gunman shot at the concert and pointing blame at hotel security for not responding sooner / better:

“[The security guard] Mr. Campos was encountered by the suspect prior to his shooting to the outside world,” Lombardo said at a Monday news conference.

Police officers who started searching the hotel after the shooting began didn’t know a hotel security guard had been shot “until they met him in the hallway after exiting the elevator,” Lombardo said.

Charles "Sid" Heal, a retired Los Angeles County sheriff's commander and tactical expert, said the new timeline “changes the whole perspective of the shooting."

Heal said that if police had known immediately that a guard had been shot, they would have rushed the room while the gunman was still firing. He said it seemed to signal a breakdown in communication.

“It doesn't say much for hotel security,” Heal said.

(1)
U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 10, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Heal said that if police had known immediately that a guard had been shot, they would have rushed the room while the gunman was still firing...

Why? What's the difference?

U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

...the Clark County sheriff is saying the security guard was shot before the gunman shot at the concert.

Ok, FWIW, here's my theory to explain the timeline, that I haven't seen anywhere else yet (not that thats a good sign)...

The gunman wasn't ready to start shooting yet. Maybe he wasn't going to even start shooting that night! After all he was still drilling holes for cameras, right?  

But he gets caught drilling the hole, he decides it's now or never, shoots down the hall with 200 bullets, hits the guard, but he is not fully setup with his weapons/tripods/ammo, which could explain why he stopped so soon.  Thinking that the police were imminent, he kills himself rather than be killed.

He liked country music, maybe there was a different event he had planned.  What was his checkout date?

(1)
U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Also, indicating an unfinished setup was the 50lbs of explosives left in his car, maybe to be used as a distraction or as a suicidal bomb...

MR
Mike Ridgley
Oct 11, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Everyone is pointing the finger at the hotel.  I don’t think they are at fault here – how could they have planned for this without having the benefit of hind sight?  It's easy to chime in now and say the hotel should have known.  Heck, I'm not sure why the guy brought so many guns into the room, he could have accomplished what he did with a single AR and dozens of magazines.

I don’t think that technology is necessarily going to prevent this sort of thing from occurring in the future either.  Cameras, gun shot detection etc… As others have mentioned, it won’t be long before these adversaries ditch the AR and move to the common hobby drone as the weapon of choice.  The drone seems to be gaining a lot of attention and is something that we need to be proactively planning for.  For the outdoor mass shooting events like Vegas, it’s going to be up to the venue operators to engage security consultants and architects to come up with the best solution for each specific venue.  Perhaps to protect outdoor venues like the Vegas Village is excavating (lowering the venue floor) and using some large pre-cast walls along the perimeter facing high-rise buildings all based on the risk (trajectory zones).  Moving the people just below the trajectory range nearby buildings within a certain distance.  These are just a couple of brief examples.  Perhaps it is also working with the nearby facilities like the Mandalay to incorporate ballistic films on windows above a certain height that have visibility to venues with occupancy counts above X.

There is only so much we can do to “nerf” the world.  There will always be risk associated with attending events like this with large crowds.  Unfortunately it is on each individual to plan ahead and run through some “what-if” scenario’s.  It is up to the venues to be more accountable for the protection of their customers.  This is the world we live in and unless the magical happy unicorn sprinkles jolly dust on everyone, I don't see the trend taking a turn for the better.

(2)
U
Undisclosed #13
Oct 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

LA Times article estimates possibly 3000 cameras in use at Mandalay Bay, but none looking down the halls.

JH
John Honovich
Mar 23, 2018
IPVM

Update - hotel staff helped the gunman carry his guns up:

Las Vegas gunman Stephen Paddock gambled, and chatted with casino and hotel staff who helped him carry some of the 20-plus pieces of luggage he brought into his room, according to surveillance footage released Thursday.

The suitcases contained an arsenal of 22 semiautomatic rifles, one bolt-action rifle and thousands of rounds of ammunition that Paddock used to fire on a crowd of concertgoers

Theoretically, it would be great to detect that but what practically can be done? Ideas?

Avatar
Brandon Knutson
Mar 23, 2018
IPVMU Certified

As I understand it, Paddock drove home bringing his luggage collection to the hotel over several days. He didn't say or act crazy around staff. People seem to want to blame the hotel, but after much thought, I don't know how they could have stopped him.

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Mar 23, 2018

The one question I had from that youtube video was how they determined at exactly what minute he locked the deadbolt of his suite?

New discussion

Ask questions and get answers to your physical security questions from IPVM team members and fellow subscribers.

Newest discussions