Subscriber Discussion

Labor Estimates Discussion

TM
Tom McVey
•Aug 01, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I know there is a lot involved with the specifics of each job so it can be difficult but I am looking for basic labor hours for installation work.  Our estimates have been a bit off lately and I do not know if it is a training issue on the installation side or a training issue on the estimation side.  Any input would be greatly appreciated.  As a company we do cctv, fire, intercom, paging, security, access control, sound, nurse call, selective entry, and even gates.  We do full turnkey installs and parts and smarts depending on the requirements of the job and how much or how little the electrical contractor wants us to do.  I will share my current numbers in the comments after we get this flowing a bit.  I don't want my numbers to influence anyone elses numbers because I am thinking mine need some work.

Thanks as always for your comments,

 

Tom

JH
John Honovich
•Aug 01, 2017
IPVM

Tom, see our Surveillance Install Labor Guide. Does that help?

TM
Tom McVey
•Aug 01, 2017
IPVMU Certified
In reply to John Honovich

I'm not sure how I missed that.  I read the VMS Labor standards, the Cable Labor Estimate Guide, and the Camera Labor Estimate Guide but missed this entirely.  Thanks.  Do you have one for access control?  We got burned on a site lately because the installer didn't drill a hole in the door frame for our wire.  He had the door frame, door, strikes, and the mag lock contract and we were to supply the wire for him to hook to.  He was to supply the path for the wire.  We couldn't pull the wire to the lock because the door casing wasn't installed.  He came in and did the casing, door, and mag lock at the same time.  Then left without supplying a hole to get the wire to the lock.  Due to the deadline and the size of the client we were forced to drill the holes ourselves.  Several issues occurred that made this simple task cascade into a nightmare for us.  

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Brian Rhodes
•Aug 01, 2017
IPVMU Certified
In reply to Tom McVey

That's not an estimation problem as much as a communication between trades one.  And unfortunately it isn't uncommon...

Also, what is the 'door casing'?  Is that part of the frame?

Coordinating expectations to other subs is a common issue, and is why (especially for access control) not furnishing both the locking hardware and access system components is a common source of problems. (see: Bidding Divisions (08, 26, 27, 28) For Security Systems Guide)

It really does help to assert yourself with other subs at the beginning of jobs to define features/expectations like this.  If you discover unwillingness to be a 'team player', it gives you a chance to notify the GC or owner that you're going to need to submit a changeorder for the overages.  They'll help then.

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TM
Tom McVey
•Aug 01, 2017
IPVMU Certified
In reply to Brian Rhodes

Yes it is the frame.  I still don't use the "correct terms" because I hear so many different things being thrown around in the conversations.  And yes everyone had a good laugh at my expense because I called the drawing a map.  But in my defense I did the drawing with all the wire runs and everything and I was using it as a map to get around the job site so when I was telling them that the floor penetrations were not lining up with the network closets I said here they are on my map.  Now some of the guys call me Tom Tom.  

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Brian Rhodes
•Aug 01, 2017
IPVMU Certified
In reply to Tom McVey

:)

Knowing and using the correct terms is a continual struggle, especially on construction sites.  Especially with electricians!  They make up more words to describe the stuff they work on than other trades combined (ie: 'peckerheads', 'pigtails', 'rod runs', 'dykes', etc...)

I just wanted to make sure 'casing' was not a feature that I was unfamiliar with. Which is by no means a rare thing...

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Brian Rhodes
•Aug 01, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Our estimates have been a bit off lately and I do not know if it is a training issue on the installation side or a training issue on the estimation side. 

By 'off', I assume you mean 'underestimated', or not enough hours.

Are you seeing short estimates in all areas, or one/two specific ones?

 

 

 

TM
Tom McVey
•Aug 01, 2017
IPVMU Certified
In reply to Brian Rhodes

Some jobs we were high on and didn't get.  Others we seem to be low on.  A few we finished below estimates.  Our problems seem to be inconsistency with some of our installers.  I know everyone has that tech that can install in half the time so I can't use him to set the expectations for the rest of them.  I also know that some people make sure they use all the time they have.  I have tried to find a way to reward or bonus those that finish under budget.  I feel that would help but have been told that it could lead to rushed, less than ideal results.  The situation now is that the business is having a little issue with the us them mentality and I need to fix it before it affects our reputation.  We are all one team, not installers vs estimators.  Probably should have started a discussion along those lines as well.  It is fair to say that IPVM and all its members are kind of my mentor.  I am fairly new to this particular career but because of my competitiveness and the way my mind works I find that more and more responsibility is becoming mine.

Thanks,

 

Tom

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SD
Shannon Davis
•Aug 01, 2017
IPVMU Certified

There are some typical hours we follow for different installations of the different systems. The problem is there are so many different situations that can be run into while the project is underway that you may not have seen during the sales walk through. Much of this comes from experience over the years as to how long it should take to do an install. This industry isn't like getting your car repaired at the body shop where they have an install time per part. There are just too many unknowns in each situation. Some people can pull cable much faster than others but are they pulling it to code. Usually if I have a tech that can pull cable twice as fast they are typically just throwing it across the ceiling instead of using the appropriate J-Hooks and such. Some people can wire up a panel so nice that you can't actually afford their work. Yes it looks really pretty but is it functional? I have found it is a constant balancing act between the sales, engineering, project management and the installation crew. One big concern for projects not getting done on time or under budget these days are the use of cell phones while the installation is getting done. More often than not you can go onto a job site and find the technicians talking on their cell phones or checking Facebook. Again this comes down to having technicians you can trust and project managers to keep those technicians you can trust honest. Just the other day we had a new technician on a job where I was helping program and commission the new IP video system and every time he finished one thing he would come back over to where I was doing the programming instead of going to the next camera or finding something to do like take out the trash and sweep the floors where a mess was made from the installation. Unfortunately I don't think you can teach the latter, at least from my experiences anyways. Either you know to pickup after yourself or you don't.

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TM
Tom McVey
•Aug 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified
In reply to Shannon Davis

Thanks for the information.  It is quite a balancing act.  All of our guys carry cell phones on the job.  The times I have been in the field I have realized the time lost when the office calls to check on things.  I have had the discussion that calls to techs onsite to be limited to emergency or time sensitive issues only.  Email for other situations.  We answer calls from the office but only check our email when we have a moment.  I looked at your company and you seem to be where we are wanting to go.  I also see that you have a good reputation and are respected.   I would like to talk to you about some of the things you use and how you do things.  Our owners are very proud of how this business was created and how well we have grown, and rightly so.  They have accomplished quite a bit.  But as we have grown some of the tools, and processes are not keeping up with us.  I have began looking at updating some of our quoting software as well as trying to figure out how to track all that we do.  So any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thanks,

 

Tom

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
•Aug 02, 2017

I experienced a similar problem during my Integrator years; our Estimator would put 80 hours for a project and when the project was closed out, we were consistently seeing more hours spent on the installation than the estimator allowed for.  Like you, I didn't know if it was a 'bad' estimate or 'bad' installers.

To overcome it I sat down with all of our Estimators and put together an excel sheet of all of the typical components that we install on any given project (cameras, mounts, lenses, VMS Software, card reader, maglock, strike, door contact, etc. etc.) and had them enter their estimate for how long it would take to install the device (allowing for unpackaging, pre-configuring and actually installing and tweaking it out to be 100% functional).  

Once I had their list, I repeated the process with our installers and compared the spreadsheets.  The results were eye opening in the number of differences that we were looking at.  Example.  Estimator applied 3 hours to a maglock.  None of my installers showed anything lower than 5 hours.  On a 60 door installation that's a massive 30 hour difference in labor!

Using these spreadsheets we generated a 'master' spreadsheet that showed the 'average' number of hours applied to each device.  We called an 'All Hands' meeting to present the results to the Estimators and Installers and went through the list item by item until we all agreed on the labor requirement per component.

We then added a 'difficulty' factor based on local conditions (e.g. coring a 3' concrete wall for cable routing, installing a maglock on a concrete filled vs. hollow door-jamb etc.) and increased the labor by a specific percentage based on the difficulty factor (we had a factor of 1 to 4; 4 being the most difficult and effectively doubling the average installation time).

We started using this 'master' spreadsheet once we had agreement from everyone and shortly thereafter we saw our labor come back in line.  It worked for us.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
•Aug 02, 2017
In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #1

I forgot to mention that you should also review the 'hand over' process from Sales Estimation to Installation Project Management.  More specifically; are your estimators/sales people turning over useful and correct information to the Project Management Team to be able to effectively install the system.  

Regardless of project size, I mandated that our Sales/Estimator Team assemble a document that contained a site diagram that showed travel time to site from office, proposed cable routes and device locations and also included relevant site and emergency contact information.  

This document also included a copy of the proposal that the Customer purchased along with an individual page per device location that included pictures of the existing installation location and notes regarding the installation requirement (e.g. camera @ 14' from grade, conduit penetration through brick wall, xxx feet to head end, 'yyy' feet to power, desired view is 'zzz'.) and if relevant, a picture of what the camera would be looking at, IP address, device name, cable labeling scheme, etc.  

This device location sheet also included any notes regarding 'difficulty' factor and what that difficulty may entail; e.g. need lift truck rental, concrete door jamb, existing device removal, 3-man minimum, escort required, etc. etc.

This document was reviewed in-house between the Estimator and the Project Manager assigned the installation and (if the project was big enough or sensitive enough), we would require that the Sales Manager, Estimator and Project Manager perform a site walk to review the project and ensure that everyone was agreed BEFORE any equipment was ordered or technicians scheduled on site. 

If everyone on that Team agree after review of the Project document and a Team site survey, you've done everything you can possibly do to ensure you got it right.  

There will always be something that comes up on a project that is unexpected.  The object of this exercise is to reduce the number of 'oh sh*t' moments that your installation team experience during the installation that cause labor overruns.  

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TM
Tom McVey
•Aug 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified
In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #1

That is a lot of information that you have given me.  I appreciate this very much and will definitely use these ideas.  One of our problems is, are you ready for this?

I am currently the sales manager, one of three estimators, prepare fire marshal submittals, all autocad drawings are done by me, bid reviewer, and lately I have been acting as a project manager making sure we stay on track and making sure the project owner is on track.  Maybe thats not a project manager.  I am not sure, honestly.  We do have a service manager and I am relying on him more and more.  So any and all suggestions are appreciated.

 

Thanks,

Tom

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
•Aug 04, 2017
In reply to Tom McVey

Tom,

It strikes me that you should call a meeting with your Owner and suggest a Company retreat or a couple of 'in-house' days over the course of a couple of weeks to do some internal review and planning.  A weekend of Team building in a cabin by the lake with key management staff ought to do it, but if you can involve your entire staff, all the better.  Nothing is going to change for you without acknowledgement from Management that things aren't working and can be done better.  

Because you are a growing Company you have many people wearing many different hats (yourself included) that you have no doubt been assigned along the way and now cannot rid yourself of.  It may have worked for you up to now but it sounds like you've reached a point of critical mass in your business where you need to streamline to grow (or avoid implosion).  

I would also suggest that you have everyone on staff write down their job title and the responsibilities of their position as they understand them to be.  They should also note everything that they think that they do that they consider to be 'over and above' their assigned job description/responsibilities.  When you all take turns to stand up and read out what they've written down, you'll soon realize that there is a lot of overlap and inconsistencies with people doing things they thought they were responsible for but really aren't and vice versa.

It also helps to actually define your internal processes and who needs to do what to check the boxes in the process to move it to the next step.  A simple flow chart for each internal task will accomplish this.  Start by defining the sales process from first touch with your customer to delivering a working system.  You should do it in Team setting so everyone agrees on the process and more importantly who does what in that process.  Once you've defined the process and who touches each step, assign the appropriate staff (and job title/responsibilities) with the appropriate skill set to perform the task.  Sounds easy right?  

Alternately, your boss could always hire a business consultant to come in, watch you all work for a couple of weeks, perform individual interviews, and charge you thousands to do all of this for you.  Before you ask, no, I don't know anyone you could call.  

Good luck Tom!  Managing growth is not easy, but it is easier to bear if you have a plan and consistently check yourself against it.  

 

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Ed Fried
•Aug 02, 2017

Undisclosed Manufacturer:  The process you described is the perfect storm; get buy in from both parties, estimators and installers.  I congratulate you!!

 

With that said; Thomas - if you can't overcome the "us vs them mentality" with the joint labor hours spreadsheets and you are new to the trade, it may help you bridge that "us vs them mentality" by going out with the installers on a couple of your jobs to see what it really takes.  I know TED Systems; you work for a good organization and should use the grey hairs in your company to learn how they walk a job and estimate. 

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TM
Tom McVey
•Aug 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified
In reply to Ed Fried

Thanks Ed.  I am constantly trying to learn from those that have been there and done that.  It is a lot to absorb and I am glad that people like you and IPVM make it easy to reach outside my realm to get ideas and learn.  I am going to do the labor hours spreadsheet with the techs involved.  Change is necessary even if it is difficult at times. 

 

Thanks,

 

Tom

jc
james cordell
•Aug 10, 2017
IPVMU Certified

It is difficult to get the estimate/install to line up.  Experience does count at the end of the day.  I do designs/cost estimates for a federal agency.  One of my estimate was questioned by the funding group, wanted to lower my markup.  My question was what is the basis for your guidance, seems high they say.  They had no factual reason, so mark ups were left in place.  I had been burned on previous job, learned the hard way.  Since all of our jobs are contracted out and involve the federal contracting nightmare I mean process some go out and get won by someone who immediately sub contracts the job.  The other thought is to keep metrics on bids/jobs to find the differences.  You started with adding the factor on difficulty.  Every job whether access control/CCV or IDS will have their differences that effect the cost.  Learning these factors comes with time or seeking the expertise of those that have been there.  The previous comment on using the grey hairs is spot on.  Last comment is the clarity of the project scope, statement of work.  Making sure what is required is understood.

V/r

Kelly

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