Subscriber Discussion

Is This Vista 20P Wired Wrong?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jul 15, 2017

I came across this in the field and am mildly confused.

 

I thought EOL resistors were supposed to be ... well at the end of the line. 

 

Looking from right to left, the last 5 are unused. Then you have 18,19,and 20, with 20 being the common. 18, and 19 seems to have a resistor across it. Wouldn't this mean someone could bypass a wire down the line?

 

 

 

 

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David Delepine
Jul 16, 2017
Brivo • IPVMU Certified

Some techs will use a resistor to bypass a zone at the panel rather than delete it out from the panel memory, especially if it is a temporary fix. As for EOL there are plenty of lazy techs who do not install them at the zone but instead do it inside the panel. One benefit though, it makes panel swaps and take overs much easier.

Ml
Mendy lewis
Jul 16, 2017
Safezone24

Probably installed st place that baypass on the line it's self is not a concern

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jul 16, 2017

It appears that four conductor cable was used to the intrusion zones. An EOL resistor can be located inside the panel and still supervise the circuit if two wires on a circuit are connected to a sensor, like a magnetic contact, and the remaining two wires at the contact are soldered together. Then at the panel the resistor gets connected to one leg of the contact and one of the wires soldered together. But the panel in the photo shows the resistors are not properly installed, won't really supervise the circuit.  Also, it appears the installer used the zone doubling resistors to expand the zones from 8 to 15, probably the only reason the resistors were used at all.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jul 16, 2017

are you saying 2 wires go to the contact, 1 wire to each side like normal, then the 2nd pair just gets tied together?

 

I drew this on paper and still see how the contact could get bypassed but still have the resistor in the circuit.

 

Still confused

 

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jul 16, 2017

Using the 4 conductor method with the resistor at the panel can give some supervision, slightly better than what I see in the photo.  But, the only true supervision is putting the EOL at the sensor. 

Example of using a 4 conductor cable with EOL resistors: If you have black red green and white as a 4 conductor cable and at the panel you use white and green on the panel's zone terminals.  The resistor is attached to the red and black at the panel.  At the door or window sensor, you use the red and green on the sensor and connect the white and black to each other. 

On takeovers of systems installed by large companies, many times, I see the method shown in that photo. 

It's quite easy to install EOL resistors at hardwired motion detectors, glassbreaks, roll-up door switches and outdoor audible devices. 

Sometimes, especially in residential, an installer used 2 conductor wire to doors and windows and it is a lot of work to remove the contact and install the EOL. And then it's recommended to replace the contact if you disturbed or pried on the contact to get to the connection.  And if you have multiple openings on one zone, and you're not installing zone expanders, you're going to have to sacrifice some true supervision.  There are times, usually in residential installs, when an installer used an EOL on a circuit in a place that is now impossible to access or run a new wire, and that resistor is a different value than the panel I'm installing. 

If this is a commercial install, absolutely install them at the device, do not put them at the panel like that.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jul 16, 2017

Do not hate on my mad drawing skills here. If I understand correctly, we just have a basic series circuit with the resistor in the panel. If you short red to green, the resistance doesnt change. White and black have no role in this circuit, except to maybe confuse a burglar who may short white/black to the green/red, which would bypass the resistor. 

Am I on the right path here?

 

This is a new home, about a year old. 6500 sq ft, very nice. Prying out contacts etc is probably going to be a pain and destructive.

 

Now what? Just put in a take over module, and wire it up exactly the same? Carry everything over the same way it was wired? Will the 2 gig module adjust to the various resistances?

 

From a liability standpoint, can we advise the client and have them waive liability?

 

When we took gate classes, they were pretty clear, that no court was going to recognize that the client waived life/safety items, no matter what we had in writing (not that we were trying, just a point DoorKing makes in their class)

 

Thanks

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jul 16, 2017

Yep, that's the concept, just the way it's drawn.  It's better than not have any supervision at all in my opinion.  But, it's still not true EOL supervision.  If you have things like motion detectors, glass break detectors, outdoor bell or siren enclosure, you can relocate resistors to those without much trouble or destruction.

I don't know anything about 2GIG or their modules, you can read their installation guide on line to see if they auto adjust to resistor values.

In terms of dealing with doors and windows EOLs, it's your call. You'll probably get a variety of opinions on what to do here. 

Liability is always a concern, not just with something like this but with a multitude of business decisions.  If your are going to be in this type of business, seek the services of a lawyer for questions on liability and how best to minimize your exposure.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jul 16, 2017

Our plan is to replace with a 2gig and 2 take over modules. The client is not happy with the system, wants a touch screen etc. It seems easier to just pull the Vista instead of replacing keypad, using a SEM, etc.

 

Once we take over the system, we would be liable for the install. Do we need to correct these zones? Would it be better to use more take over modules and separate the ones instead of combining them?

 

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jul 16, 2017

If you decide to use the Vista 20P, and install a touchscreen and some 4219's, make sure you do the power calculations as the Honeywell touchscreens use a lot of current by themselves, and from the photo it appears there are at least 4 devices on the ECP bus now.  I wonder if the system in the photo has a 4 AH battery to support it?  Hope not. That panel only provides 600ma of auxiliary power, and it may be close to is max now.  It may require an aux power supply with it's own battery and transformer.

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