Subscriber Discussion

Is This A Good Way To Fully Cover 10,000sqft?

UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Aug 04, 2017

 

I basically took an Avigilon 5.0L-H4A-BO2-IR, stretched it out to the max 45ppf and the widest I could go, and then duplicated it... 29 times, give or take. I put a couple smaller ones in a couple places but most of them are those 5mp units.

Is there maybe a "proper" way to lay these out, when 100% coverage is required?  This is for a cannabis greenhouse so we really can't skimp on picture quality or overall coverage.

 

Thank you for your input everyone!

MM
Michael Miller
Aug 04, 2017

You can always add in some fisheye cameras to ensure you have complete coverage. 

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JH
John Honovich
Aug 04, 2017
IPVM

Assuming the 12MP Avigilon fisheye (with a 2992 x 2992 actual pixel count), that would be ~11' radius for 45ppf (if the IPVM calculator's calculation is correct).

Generally, spherical / fisheye camera coverage delivers lower pixel density per area than more telephoto cameras.

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JH
John Honovich
Aug 04, 2017
IPVM
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MM
Michael Miller
Aug 04, 2017

Thanks, John I am fully aware of the pixel density issues with fisheye cameras.  I was not recommending replacing cameras with fisheye cameras I was saying to add a couple to cover any blind spots from the overlapping cameras.  Also, it is way faster to find what you're looking for when you can use 1 fisheye camera over have to jump between 30 cameras to see what is going on. 

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UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Aug 04, 2017

Thanks guys. I had toyed with that idea but after placing just one on the map I realized I'll probably need like 40 of those haha.. maybe I'll give it another try.

Is there anything "wrong" with the way they are laid out here? Are there more cost effective cameras that would do the trick, or maybe, are these cameras overkill? When I looked at the comparison, none of the other dozen really matched this unit in terms of IR illumination, CCD size, resolution, lens, FOV

MM
Michael Miller
Aug 04, 2017

My concern would be what happens when the plants grow?  A couple additional Fisheye cameras hung from the ceiling would ensure you have 100% coverage. 

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Avatar
Paul Grefenstette
Aug 04, 2017

How high are the ceilings and my concern would be storage - are they looking for 6mo+ and offsite replication?

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UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Aug 04, 2017

Hi Paul,

The requirements are actually two years retention in all areas where cannabis is present. It is quite the challenge with a total of 168,000 square feet to cover. I have covered most buildings with the avigilon 5mp and 12mp fisheyes in the layout (none of this is built out yet) and we are looking at around 60 cameras. 

UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Aug 04, 2017
Forgot to mention- walls are 14ft, but the roof is 24ft max peak.
JH
John Honovich
Aug 04, 2017
IPVM

If 45ppf is the main requirement, then you should consider switching to lower cost, fixed focal 8MP cameras.

They will cover far more area at a significantly lower price, per camera, and overall. Calculation comparison, same 45ppf target:

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MM
Michael Miller
Aug 04, 2017

So this would be Hikvision or Dahua or one of the hundreds of OEMs of the 2 correct?  

JH
John Honovich
Aug 04, 2017
IPVM

It would not be Avigilon since they do not offer any fixed domes greater than 3MP...

And, yes, Hikvision or Dahua would be the most notable two manufacturers of low-cost 8MP fixed focal domes.

Ultimately, it comes down to how much meeting the PPF metric is simply a government requirement. If so, they would save a lot of money looking beyond Avigilon cameras.

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UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Aug 04, 2017

I have only been poking at avigilon since I really like their system design tool. I am completely open to something lower cost, but we may well still go with their NVR, I just really like their software.

Side note questions, sorry: Is there a way to duplicate cameras in IPVM calculator?

And to see a list of all of them and edit their settings that easy instead of clicking each one on the map?

And the last was I really like how I can change each camera model on the fly with avigilon's tool. With calculator it looks like I have to delete the camera and do a new one.

It is very new to me since I just signed up for IPVM yesterday :) learning lots so far!Hi

JH
John Honovich
Aug 05, 2017
IPVM

Is there a way to duplicate cameras in IPVM calculator?

By design, the next camera added is a duplicate of the current camera selected.

And to see a list of all of them and edit their settings that easy instead of clicking each one on the map?

No, you need to click each one on the map to edit.

And the last was I really like how I can change each camera model on the fly with avigilon's tool. With calculator it looks like I have to delete the camera and do a new one.

To change a camera's model, click on the model's name up top, the selection dialogue will appear and you can switch to a whatever other model you want. 

I am completely open to something lower cost, but we may well still go with their NVR, I just really like their software.

Their software is popular, e.g., see Favorite VMS Manufacturers 2016. Their cameras are good but expensive compared to the various low cost options out there.

MM
Michael Miller
Aug 04, 2017

While exposing themselves to government owned hardware or equipment that has major security issues which you have mentioned many many times. 

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JH
John Honovich
Aug 05, 2017
IPVM

While exposing themselves to government owned hardware or equipment that has major security issues which you have mentioned many many times.

Yes, they have issues. I do not know if a cannabis greenhouse cares about that. If they do, definitely factor that in.

U
Undisclosed #2
Aug 04, 2017

"If so, they would save a lot of money looking beyond Avigilon cameras."

And loose pixel search capability

I would not do it

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JH
John Honovich
Aug 05, 2017
IPVM

And loose pixel search capability

They'd loose pixel search capability, Avigilon's analytics, the chance to do appearance search, remote zoom, etc.

And maybe #1 values all of that. If so, go with Avigilon. If not, a lot of money can be saved.

UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Aug 04, 2017

I have only been poking at avigilon since I really like their system design tool. I am completely open to something lower cost, but we may well still go with their NVR, I just really like their software.

 

Side note questions, sorry: Is there a way to duplicate cameras in IPVM calculator?

And to see a list of all of them and edit their settings that easy instead of clicking each one on the map?

And the last was I really like how I can change each camera model on the fly with avigilon's tool. With calculator it looks like I have to delete the camera and do a new one.

It is very new to me since I just signed up for IPVM yesterday :) learning lots so far!

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Aug 06, 2017

Are the HD Pro H.264 cameras out of the question?  Certainly, they are pricey, but if pure PPF is the sole requirement perhaps they would fit your need?  My biggest concern in using them is items which would block their view that are not shown on your sample layout.  In a context free layout they seem ideal.  The lower resolution models still offer some level of analytics.  The latest firmware update has even added smart codecs to reduce the bandwidth / storage demands of these units.

The multi-head units are a favorite of ours for certain client spaces over the fisheye cameras, for reasons which John has stated.  There are some severe drawbacks right now - lack of smart codecs, older imagers, overall heavy bandwidth consumption particularly with WDR enabled, no analytics, etc.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Aug 06, 2017

Never mind, the Hd Pro units would be an issue with the IR requirements.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #4
Aug 06, 2017

Getting away from PPF for a moment, we were told by a grower that the plants had to be in a dark environment for 12 hours a day.  When we explained that the IR cameras we were proposing used 850 NM emitters, with some visible light present, his research suggested 940 NM emitters would be required.  Never verified his findings...just an FYI to those involved in this "growing" vertical market.

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: Do Cannabis Greenhouses Require 940nm IR Illumination?

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Keith Young
Aug 07, 2017

FOV example

Be sure to note the difference between horizontal FOV (bottom) and actual FOV (top). Based on camera height, distance to target, minimum target elevation, and maximum target elevation, you could be viewing far less real-estate than your diagram suggests. Just my $.02. 

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Armando Perez
Aug 08, 2017
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

Theres not enough information here to answer this. Ive done plenty of cannabis operations and your concerns are going to involve more than the 2D drawing can show. What are the walls like? ceiling height and shape? is there a canopy inside for light depravation? If so what does it look and operate like? 

 

What state? In washington they dont care so much about the details as they do about coverage, so the plan changes a bit, and you can go with much lower resolution and smart lensing to get the required storage without needing hundreds of terabytes.

 

Your angles are pretty tight for the stated objective of total coverage (which usually implies a lower detail across the board except for where you specifically need it).

 

proper design will take into account the time factor in an environment with growing plants and changing usage. Are there any flowering areas? processing areas? etc...

 

Is there more to the 45ppf rule youre using or does it just say 45PPF? At what distance? surely they dont intend 45ppf EVERYWHERE. IF they did youd be looking at mostly floor to abide by that.

 

Dont forget the blindspot underneath the camera. All cameras must have another cmaera looking back at it for total coverage. (unless youre using single lens panoramics or corridor cams)

 

just for fun... this was me, a couple years ago.

https://www.marijuanaventure.com/new-regulations-clarify-security-issues/#more-1347

Avatar
Armando Perez
Aug 08, 2017
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

Im also struggling to see how this drawing is 10k square feet....

 

based on overhead ddoors those hashmarks appear to be 10 ish feet apart, making this more like 25000 sq feet.

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Armando Perez
Aug 08, 2017
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

10000 sq feet would be approx 65x150 based on the ratio of length to width.

 

Here are two cameras dropped on this dimension at 4MP, 10 foot mounting height, 2.8mm fixed lens. You can see this is going to look very different from what you had up there.yellow line ends at 45PPF

 

 

alternatively, you could do a single avigilon 5K that would look like this...

UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Aug 08, 2017

Hi Armando thank you for your input. It's not 10,000 square feet that is my fault it's actually 100,000 square feet. 500 feet long by 200 feet wide.  I'm posting from my phone but will reply again later on, you've brought up some great points.

Avatar
Armando Perez
Aug 08, 2017
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

definitely makes more sense now.

Avatar
Armando Perez
Aug 08, 2017
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

heres an option with your actual building size.

 

this is 4MP fixed lens cameras around the perimeter with an avigilon 4 head in the middle of each 100x100 section. green line represents 45ppf. This can be adjusted with camera height, and with some tweaking I think you could get very very close with this concept. This is a very quick drawing, not exactly what I would use, but you can see how it doesnt need much adjustment from here. This would yield:

40x inexpensive 4MP 3.6mm 1/3" IR cameras 

10X 4 Head Avigilon multi sensor cameras.

 

generally speaking, Ive found that creating a perimeter and duplicating the pattern across the property creates a more usable design. This is not necessarily the design I would use, just one of many possibilities.

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