Member Discussion

Is The Government Really Going To Pay My Employees Wages? (PPP - Paycheck Protection Program)

Via the CARES small business stimulus loan: If Im understanding this correctly, the government is going to forgive the principal portion of the payment of my employees wages. Forgive as I don't have to pay it back. All I have to do is pick up the interest. I have my "where is the catch" goggles on though.

Here’s what the historic $2 trillion coronavirus stimulus package will do to help small businesses - MarketWatch

Luckily I wouldn't currently need something like this, but if things get any worse, this sounds very enticing.
What have you guys heard?


Sean- thanks for noting this. Its called the 'paycheck protection program'. I found a resource that explains this program.

It appears legitimate and generous if approved. I quickly reviewed the bill and the details are noted.

This is incredible. The way i see it is that you would be crazy not to take advantage of this. Am i wrong? Why arent people more excited about this? Yay government!!

1st. You are taking a loan with a 4% interest

2nd. You will have to apply for reimbursement. They can give you up to 100% based on your circumstances

3rd. You have to commit on not letting employees go

Its not a bad thing but for now it's a loan

Its not a bad thing but for now it's a loan

Robert, why do you think "now it's a loan"? Technically, certainly, it's a loan to start but the language of the bill is clearly structured towards the forgiveness aspect.

Here is a FAQ from the US Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship, key excerpts:

When is the loan forgiven? The loan is forgiven at the end of the 8-week period after you take out the loan. Borrowers will work with lenders to verify covered expenses and the proper amount of forgiveness.

How much of my loan will be forgiven? The purpose of the Paycheck Protection Program is to help you retain your employees, at their current base pay. If you keep all of your employees, the entirety of the loan will be forgiven. If you still lay off employees, the forgiveness will be reduced by the percent decrease in the number of employees. If your total payroll expenses on workers making less than $100,000 annually decreases by more than 25 percent, loan forgiveness will be reduced by the same amount. If you have already laid off some employees, you can still be forgiven for the full amount of your payroll cost if you rehire your employees by June 30, 2020. [emphasis added]

Clearly, I am not expert in this but from the official documentation I have seen so far, including that US government FAQ above it seems like it is intended to be forgiven with fairly straightforward requirements. Yes/no?

Hi John, yes the intention is to forgive but it's a separate process that they are not clear on.

I dont believe the forgiveness is going to be as easy as "hey, any busines, you paid your employees for 2 month, here is a check to cover all employees while you might only dropped 30% sales" Most likely they will need proof that your business sales decreased by X%..let's say 50%, hence you only needed 1/2 of your employees but if you kept them all, then they will cover that expense.

That what they have done with the paycheck protection act that is also an option to apply for. If your sales decrease by 50% or more, they they will pay 50% of your payrol. You can apply to either but not both.

In summary, I recommend for folks here to apply now, decide later. There is no interest on the loan for the next 90 day. If you don't use it, return it for free.

The initiative is not directed to help a small business owner (exception is rent, utilities) but rather to make sure employees gets paid and not go on unemployment.

It's a loan, paid over 10 years with 4% max interest and a good chance of partial forgiveness. Its good but use it wisely.

Most likely they will need proof that your business sales decreased by X%..let's say 50%, hence you only needed 1/2 of your employees but if you kept them all, then they will cover that expense.

Robert, where are you getting that from? I have read the actual legislation paragraph by paragraph and it says nor implies nothing about such a fall in sales. Also, no other sources that I found claims that.

I understand your general skepticism but do you have government, legal or accounting sources that back up that belief?

I sat on a Sonic Drive In Franchise webinar hosted by their corporate lawyers. These were points that were discussed. Moreover, we reached out to our bank today on PPP. Response "We are waiting on guidance from SBA to hit the ground running on them"

We are hearing similar from our banker who is an SBA lender and we already have an SBA loan through them. I think the issue is that it is not well defined so I agree with Robert that people should proceed with caution and watch for the "gotcha"

How can they prove your sales and work demand over a 2 to 3 month period? That may work for retails, restaurants etc. But not a project based business offering Net terms. Maybe the big boys record income differently but I am sure for most of us, production schedule is not going to match the invoice/sales schedule.

What if clients pay a deposit, but later opts to postpone the project and we can't do the work. for 60 or 90 days. I can't make up that work. We need to bill x hours every week to cover overhead. Loading them up into another month doesn't help.

Furthermore, what if I opt to keep the guys doing busy work?


I suspect the rules around this are going to be very loose. There just will be too many loans out there to scrutinize.

It also doesn't address the issue for some small businesses who are lucky enough to be in a growth stage and whose business is growing as a result of Covid 19 i.e. doing business with customers in the critical services sector. This program is very narrow regarding what you can spend the money on and it does not include buying equipment so that you can take on more business (grow) which would allow you to hire more people etc. Our CTO & banker are looking at how we might be able to work legally within the parameters and earmark this money for the overhead & payroll that we don't REALLY need help with right now and spend the money we would have been using to pay those needs on equipment for growth instead. We'll see if there's a "grey area" in the program that allows for that.

Here is the full 880-page CARES bill. More importantly, here is the 24-page Paycheck Protection Program.

This is a key clause:

That is a bit vague since it is based on good faith and 'necessary'. For example, if someone could otherwise use / lose their savings, is the loan than not necessary.

Let's say you have 2 local businesses - say integrators - if one guy gets it and the other does not that's a fairly massive competitive advantage. I can't ever think of a program like this.

We should apply for an obtain the loan because having enough capital will determine who survives and who goes out of business. Here's what I wrote to my colleagues:

There's an argument to be made that because so much has changed in the last month, we haven't yet come to terms about what all of us need to do in the future. All I know today is that the changes in the future are unknown now, and will likely be rather profound.

[Our CPA], for you now is a good time to improve your work from home technology, and if True Blade can help with some of it just let us know. Just for all of us to have improved work from home technology is reason enough to get the SBA money because without good tech equipment at home not much is possible.

Because of the societal uncertainty, not to mention economic uncertainty, we can't know today what we need to support the ongoing operations of the company, so having the extra capital available in case of additional problems we haven't thought about seems the prudent thing to do.

Kirschenbaum has sent out an email on this. He's pretty bullish on this but charging $5,000 to manage the process, key quotes:

For limited time you can get a forgivable loan. Forgivable means you don't have to pay the loan back.

​1. You need to take out this loan.

2. ​You need to use the proceeds properly to get forgiveness

The loan can be sizable; 2 1/2 times your average monthly payroll for past 12 months. Use the money to pay your employees, rent and other permitted expenses.

Getting the loan may be the easy part, though I believe you need to act quickly because I think the funding for the PPP is going to dry up fast and loans won't be available.

The hard part may be getting the loan forgiven.

I dont know about you guys but Im not paying anyone any fee to navigate this. Im going to my local SBA approved banker to help me with this.

Im applying for this. Although I have not laid anyone off, I have had to instead slow pay some invoices due to our sales being about 50-60% of what they used to be. And who knows how long the government is going to continue mandating business shut downs. Not sure how much worse its gonna get. Ive got to take action now to protect my business.

I dont feel bad for it either one bit. I've paid unGodly amounts of taxes throughout the years, much of it going to insanely stupid government programs that has rewarded non-producers all these years past. Since it was the government who caused our businesses to suffer by mandating the shutdowns, I see no problem with them paying back the producers.

Im not paying anyone any fee to navigate this. Im going to my local SBA approved banker to help me with this.

I suspect the Kirschenbaum pitch is more appealing to bigger small businesses. If you have 100 employees, you could be looking at a million dollars in loan forgiveness, at that point, it makes a lot of sense, even administratively.

More broadly, the program seems straightforward but some may want the comfort of a law firm to reduce risk amidst the turbulence.

That said, I don't think Ken Kirschenbaum will need to apply for this....

If you have a 100 employees, you probably have people on staff that can handle it.

I have used them for 2 -3 contracts, and emailed them about 6 times for something a year later and never got a reply.

I watched Ken in a webinar the other day and in his opening statement he made a comment that struck me as odd. He stated all integrators should be doing great as we are essential and should be able to work. It didn't dawn on him commercial clients are putting projects on hold, shut down, or residential clients don't want people in their house.

Not sure I want someone that far out of touch of what's going on, representing me to the SBA.

I watched Ken in a webinar the other day and in his opening statement he made a comment that struck me as odd. He stated all integrators should be doing great as we are essential and should be able to work.

That's very odd, e.g., to the contrary - Worsen: Integrators Hit Even Harder By Coronavirus

Kirschenbaum also downplayed coronavirus, e.g. comparing it to the cold or flu a few weeks ago:

We know that employees injured on the job are entitled to workers comp and not permitted to sue their employer. But, what we don’t know is whether contracting the Coronavirus while transporting to and from, and attending the ISC, would qualify for a work related injury. It’s doubtful that anyone has been successful claiming workers comp benefits for a cold or even the flu.

Not even a month ago, Kirschenbaum evidently had little to no understanding of how serious coronavirus was.

So IPVM is not endorsing the Kirschenbaum route but he is a notable attorney in the space so it's worth discussing.

I received an email that Ken Kirschenbaum is charging $2,500

Kirschenbaum likes you better! It's either that or the email is oddly laid out, my email said $2,500 for phase one and another $2,500 for phase two, screencapped below:

I guess you could just pay the first $2,500 but the second one (getting the forgiveness) seems to be the real payoff in hiring an attorney.

Kirschenbaum with another email on the topic this morning:

You owe it to yourself and your employees to get the PPP loan. Even if you're sitting with sufficient funds in your business to survive the crisis, you are eligible for the PPP funding. You need to move on this because we know that funding is limited and we don't know if additional funds will be made available.

If you're on the fence, get off. If you've had bad experience with SBA before, that's not surprising. But this is different. If managed properly you will be able to get this loan without too much hassle. You most likely qualify.

So the primary reason to lay employees off is lack of work.

If we cant work due to lack of work, clients not open etc, what are techs supposed to do? Stay home and get paid?

I can see doing training, etc. Just wondering if there is something they are supposed to be doing?

Just wondering if there is something they are supposed to be doing?

Ideally, yes, but as I understand most of the incentive behind this, it is primarily to keep from cascading effects of cash flow stoppage. If your employees don't get paid, then they can't pay their rent/mortgage, they are not buying things, upstream landlords and businesses see cash flow impacts, etc.

I have been following this closely as my wife is the CFO of a company with a lot of hourly workers and people that would be applicable for these programs.

Where do you go to actually sign up for PPP?

Per the FAQ from the US Senate Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship:

You can call your bank or find SBA-approved lenders in your area through SBA’s online Lender Match tool.

So call your banker or your accountant.

Btw, that Lender Match tool is broken, at least when I click the 'find lenders' red button, it just takes me back to the same page.

Btw, that Lender Match tool is broken,

Here is another SBA site link that allows users to search by state.

Ive been in contact with my banker about this and they are awaiting more information from the ABA (American Bankers Association) and SBA which is expected today or tomorrow on how to implement this. Even they still have questions.

Here is a guideline from the US chamber of commerce

Also, according to the ABA, if you have already applied for the SBA's Emergency Injury Disaster Loan, you cannot also utilize the Paycheck Protection Program out of fear of double dipping. My guess is that the PPP will be far more enticing for most folks. IPVM Image

My guess that there are a ton of small businesses applying for this and unless the government decides to print even more money than what they have already allocated for in the CARES act, I just dont see how they are going to have enough money to grant all the businesses that apply for this their 8 weeks of forgiven costs. So this could run dry quickly.

So my suggestion would be to act now. Here is what I did:-typed up a short summary good faith statement of how this affected our business and how I think it will continue to affect our business. I included supporting financial data of ours before the Crisis went mainstream and after the crisis went mainstream. March 13th was our doomsday it seems.- I prepared all of my payroll documentation showing all labor costs for the past 12 months. Be sure to include all of your wages paid (Hourly, Salary, Bonus, Etc) Plus any benefits such as retirement and health.

I then sent all this to my banker and told him to let me know the minute he has all the details ready so I can proceed with the application.

Sean, thanks for sharing! I looked it over, should be straightforward for most businesses, not a lot of sections.

Interestingly, for VC funded companies (maybe Verkada will apply :) there is evidently some debate or concern, see: Startups and SBA Loans - AVC

Also, Kirschenbaum sent yet another email, saying it is going to sell out like a Beyonce meets Elvis concert:

For those of you still "thinking about it", "considering it", "looking it over", talking to accountant, insurance agent or guru", I believe the funding for the PPP will be gone within hours, if not minutes, of the government releasing the funds. ​​K&K is no longer sending out retainers without payment in advance.

I have no idea how quickly it will go but it is an incredible deal. The bill adds $349 billion for this, so if you assume the average participant gets $100,000, that would cover 3.5 million businesses; if assume $350,000 average, that would cover 1 million businesses. The bill provides a max of $2 million per business.

Per the SBA, loan applications can start being applied this Friday, April 3rd. Be prepared to file.

I just talked to our SBA banker at our bank. They are saying that they still have not received official guidelines from the Treasury, just the generalized details that were put up on Wednesday. They do not have the official application form or even if it will be online or paper copy.

I'm curious- has anyone had similar feedback from their bank?

#3, it depends on the bank. Your bank may not have but others have provided feedback.

For example, Here is the DRAFT PPP Application from the SBA (hat tip Sean). And per the SBA, loan applications can start being applied this Friday, April 3rd (tomorrow!).

Of course, which banks are ready to accept applications tomorrow is not yet clear but if you want this, I recommend having / tracking a few banks to see who is first. Since there are no real underwriting requirements for this, the main issue seems to be getting in line before the money is out.

This application has since been marked as SAMPLE and is (supposedly) going to be different from the official application. (Source: my bank, just like everyone else.)

Verbatim from direct communication this morning.:

Payroll Protection Program

Current SBA Update: The situation with the SBA and the Cares Act Payroll Protection Program continues to be very fluid. We were expecting final guidance from the SBA and Treasury Department last night and it has not been provided as of this morning. We are expecting an update later today, however, no specific time has been communicated. The NAGGL program webinar for today has been cancelled.

Program Information: The program information we have provided is current as of the last update, however the Program SOP has not been finalized.

Program Forms: We were informed last night that the PPP application that was posted to the Treasury and SBA sites is NOT final, and it has subsequently marked as a “sample form”. The SBA has given direction that customers should NOT use the application form that was previously provided by the U.S. Treasury Department.

Customer Communication: Please share that we are awaiting final program information from the SBA. In the meantime we may direct them to the SBA website or share any of the previously provided materials. I recommend they spend this time compiling their financial information and payroll information so they are prepared when the final application is made available.

Approval Process: We have prepared an preliminary underwriting checklist, subject to finalization of the program. We are currently working on a loan document set, but again are waiting the SBA’s forms

I'd suggest being patient with this, I think the fed is trying to push things quicker than banks and the system can move. That said the pot of money they say will go too fast to meet everyone need so that causes a conflicting situations. This article from today sums the banks hesitance on the program:

Thousands of U.S. banks may sit out small-business rescue plan on liability worries: sources - Reuters

I got these from a Webinar yesterday run by Emergency 24...pretty informative...

These are the slides...

PowerPoint Presentation

My smaller bank/credit union sent me over the app yesterday....

Good luck all

Dennis, Thanks! One thing I was not aware of is the: Employee Retention Credit under the CARES Act (IRS Description), as it relates to integrators it counts if:

A significant decline in gross receipts begins with the first quarter in which an employer’s gross receipts for a calendar quarter in 2020 are less than 50 percent of its gross receipts for the same calendar quarter in 2019.

Some integrators may be able to qualify for this. If you do you get tax credits equal to half of the employee's compensation up to $5,000 total:

The Employee Retention Credit is a fully refundable tax credit for employers equal to 50 percent of qualified wages (including allocable qualified health plan expenses) that Eligible Employers pay their employees. This Employee Retention Credit applies to qualified wages paid after March 12, 2020, and before January 1, 2021. The maximum amount of qualified wages taken into account with respect to each employee for all calendar quarters is $10,000, so that the maximum credit for an Eligible Employer for qualified wages paid to any employee is $5,000.

For anyone following this thread and applying today note that the application and supporting documents were updated late last night:

Assistance for Small Businesses | U.S. Department of the Treasury

Thanks, #4, per Treasury, this is the official final application form. it's very similar to the draft one, the main differences I saw was clearer categories up top for applications to choose and an added question about being a franchise.

The Treasury Department overview encourages to apply ASAP noting limited funding:

Bank of America is now accepting PPP applicants but only from existing BoA business customers:

If you are a BoA customer, take advantage of this.

We will update as we hear / see more banks accepting applications.

We went through the application process this morning using our online banking log in with BOA. The process was simple and worked well. They said it would take a few days to hear anything and that regular customer service would not be able to provide us with any info and to not call them in regard to this loan.

FYI - My understanding as a BofA customer is that they are only accepting applications from those that have both a business account AND lending relationship (Auto loan, credit card, business loan etc). So business like my own apparently don't qualify even though we've been long term BofA customers...

We applied directly with our bank this morning in person (we scheduled the appointment last Tuesday).

Our bank was amazing. The process was simple, and we received our approval from the SBA an hour ago. The funds will be transferred by end of business Monday.

Suggestions -

Be sure to have a clean, simple spreadsheet that mirrors your GL and line items each payroll expense (inclusive of medial, dental, retirement, workers compensation insurance, and tax liability except for Federal tax).

Also bring a copy of your quarterly Federal Form 941 from 2019 proving your payroll.

Good luck to all!

That is good to hear. Is BoA your bank?

Hi Michael,

We used a small local bank that we have an excellent relationship with. For anyone struggling with the larger banks, I suggest trying the smaller regional banks.

While they don’t have an entire back room filled with employees processing applications, they are better suited to file manually and provide feedback almost immediately. And they look at everyone filing as a potential new business customer which is invaluable to them.

#4, good feedback!

Also bring a copy of your quarterly Federal Form 941 from 2019 proving your payroll.

Did they require that? I ask only because the application did not mention it or maybe I missed that.

Hi John,

It was not specifically required by the SBA but our bank was asking all of their applicants to provide the forms and indicated that those who provided clean supporting documentation verifying payroll liability against amount of loan would receive priority as we were more likely to be able to satisfy forgiveness rules later in the loan

It took time to pull everything together - nearly a week working at it - but worth every minute.

#4, good feedback, thanks and happy to see you got it in!

Could you follow up Monday on this thread once you have received the funds? It would be nice to hear that someone already received the money and it happened that fast.

UPDATE: Online lender Lendio is accepting PPP applications online.

Caution: I didn't know who Lendio was until seeing a reference on Twitter. They are a marketplace founded in 2011 that raised $55 million in funding this week. According to LinkedIn, they have been growing over the last few years:

You should talk it over with your accountant, lawyer, etc. but this could be worth a shot.

I reviewed the Lendio process, you need to upload photo ID, payroll records for 2019 and 2020 plus Form 941 (quarterly tax return) for 2019.

If it works, I don't know.

If people find other banks or options, please share them.

Reviews are not good.

Fundera, another loan broker, is offering to do PPP applications.

Same caveats as Lendio apply.

Just got word that we got "approved" on Saturday.

My Banker is telling me we should receive funds next week.

Hey Sean: Which bank is processing this for you?

We use a local bank here in Tulsa. "Security Bank"

I heartily would not recommend using a big bank to do this. Big banks look at you as just a number and are mostly terrible for small businesses. This would be a great oppurtunity to find an awesome local banker.

We used to bank with Bank of America. The only thing BOA was good for was their excellent online platform. Other than that, when it came to funding needs, they are extremely and horrendously terrible. I imagine that they are incredibly terrible to deal with on this PPP as well.

On a side note: In the future if you ever have needs for more funding such as a Line of Credit, Local bankers are much more equipped to go more in depth on your business to determine whether you qualify for funding. Ive been using local banks for years but I found one a little over a year ago that transformed our business. Having a good banker is just as important as having a good CPA or Attorney. Find one that rocks and they can propel your business.

The issue right now is most banks will not help you with the PPP loan unless you're a current client. I do agree smaller banks are a much better option for small businesses. I would love to hear more about how your new bank helped you out.

When I tried to get a LOC with Bank Of America back in the day, they had me fill out a simple form and immediately declined me without looking any further into my business. I guess at the time, my business didnt have a "business credit profile" and they didnt want to mess with me any further other than offering me a credit card. Even though my financials were great, they just stopped immediately because I didnt have a "credit profile" and didnt even look at my financials. This is what big banks do. You are just a piece in their process and if you dont fit all checklists, they dont go any further.

Then I found a mid sized local bank here in Tulsa that had a few branches. They were much better to deal with. They actually took the time to pour over my financials and offered me a line of credit. The banker I dealt with was about average though. He basically was reactionary as opposed to proactive. This was good enough for me for a few years. I just contacted him anytime I needed to take a draw and we ate lunch once a year everytime we renewed the loan and that was about the extent of the relationship.

Then last year I had some oppurtunities that I wanted to pounce on that needed some more funding and needed to increase my LOC. My average banker just wasnt cutting it. He just kind of drug his feet anytime I needed something and was like pulling teeth for him to get anything done, especially when I needed it done quickly.

Then one of my colleagues referred me to the guy Im with now. It was like a breath of fresh air. This guy is very proactive. He immediately was able to get me the increase on the LOC that I needed. I also mentioned that I was interested in buying a building in a year once that I got 20% saved up. He immediately mentioned an SBA program in which all I had to put down was 10%. Because of that, I made an offer on a building the very next month (we are currently occupying the building). The problem is, that our lease for our old location is still active until June. To help out with this, my banker setup interest only payments until June when our lease ends to help lower the monthly payment. (When I mentioned that I wanted to buy a building from my other banker, he never mentioned the SBA program and he most definetely would have not had the flexibility to do the interest only thing for me.)

And this PPP thing is another great example of why its great to work with a guy like this. Ive been in contact with him everyday via text and email about this program. He immediately forwards me info as soon as he gets it. And he just shot me a text today to let me know it was approved. He is basically a business partner in a way.

We have been banking with Wells Fargo for 3 years, and its obvious by our deposits we are growing. We applied for a LOC with them as well as some smaller regional banks.

During the process, I emailed our local WF rep/banker on the status, and he told me to call the 800 # on the back of the card. Huh? They declined us a few days later.

The other bank approved us for 2x what we applied for with Wells, the rep answers emails on weekends (regarding the PPP loan so its time sensitive etc.) and they have been great.

She told me next truck I buy, just let her know in advance, and I can use my LOC to buy the truck, then come in and they will do paperwork on the truck and put that on a fixed payment loan and credit the LOC back.

I am super excited to be working with a bank that cares.

They are also a SBA preferred lender so we are working on the PPP.

Sean,

That's great news, I am happy for you. We submitted our application on Friday via BoA, but haven't heard anything yet.

Hoping for the best!

TD Bank finally had there PPP online loan application finished this morning which we completed. I have a call with my team at 4:30 to find out our next steps.

Does anyone know of anyone that actually received funding yet? Our bank is saying SBA has not released any funds yet.

Our bank updated us today. They have indicated that the SBA changed the format of the lender document that the bank must submit, causing a bit of a delay in the release of funds. This new lender form is titled "New Lender Application Form (Federally [...]" highlighted below as opposed to the "Lender Application Form" listed above the highlighted "new" form.

All of this can be found at: Assistance for Small Businesses | U.S. Department of the Treasury

The site is being updated daily with more information. We will update this group as soon as we receive our funding (now said to be tomorrow, Wednesday).

The banks are the ones that actually release the funds to you from my understanding. I think the banks are just still waiting to see how the forgiveness part is going to work.

Forget about what I said about getting funded Wednesday.

Our bank just funded us and the money is officially in the bank!

Thats awesome! Congrats. Earliest Ive heard anyone receiving funds would be this Friday

My Bank just issued a statement stating that they have paused anymore PPP applications because they are nearing their funding capacity for this. They stated they have already approved 70 million dollars worth of PPP funding.

To put this into perspective, this is a one branch bank. No telling how much the multi branch and large banks are doing.

There is a similar initiative in Canada. It's been announced but the actual process hasn't been opened to the best of my knowledge. "...Canada Emergency Wage Subsidy would cover 75 per cent of salaries for qualifying businesses...."

Things will get better but the scale of this economic hit can not be overstated! Trying to stay positive but this is a challenging time!

Canada’s COVID-19 Economic Response Plan - Canada.ca

I was told today by banker that we are approved.

At this point, I've laid off 4 of 17 employees and our install/tech hours have been drastically cut back for the remaining guys due to lack of install work (we do have plenty of backlog). The incentive for the government with these paycheck loans is to keep employees earning full or close to full wages over the next 2.5 months. The problem for us employers is that we likely won't have anything close to 40 hours of continuous work for all install/techs during the next couple of months. This is the time that the "forgiveness" piece of this will be measured by your bank reviewing payroll number percentages. Remember everything is compared to 2019 payroll that you submitted. If your payroll dollars are 25% off, 75% forgiveness. This is the way I interpret what i've read at least. Not sure if they expect me to immediately bring back the 4 laid off employees on receiving the funds, only to have them re clean the back and take inventory .....again!

Thoughts?

#9, thanks for your first comment and congrats on getting the funding!

Here is what the Treasury Department doc says:

The loan amounts will be forgiven as long as:  The loan proceeds are used to cover payroll costs, and most mortgage interest, rent, and utility costs over the 8 week period after the loan is made; [emphasis added]

If I was an integrator, I would first figure out how much my rent and utilities were for the next 8 weeks after the money hits your account. Then, I would estimate how much is left that could be forgiveable (say it's $100,000 to use a round number). Then, I would figure out how many techs I could hire back for how much time over the following 8 weeks.

If your payroll dollars are 25% off, 75% forgiveness.

I don't read it that way. I read it that you calculate your potential loan off of 2.5 months from the past year but you can get forgiveness for as much as you legitimately expend over this 8 week period.

That said, consult with an attorney, IPVM does not offer legal counsel and this is sufficiently complex and specific to your situation that an attorney would be helpful.

Thanks John. I do plan to focus first on the building lease, utilities, etc.

I'm not hurting cash flow wise right now because I'm living on receivables from February and early March billings. The biggest issue for me will be come June/July when the receivables will be about 50-60% less, our workforce & payroll should be back to normal and we should be able to get back to doing installation work. This is the time that would be beneficial for the loan forgiveness period to kick in!

The biggest issue for me will be come June/July when the receivables will be about 50-60% less... This is the time that would be beneficial for the loan forgiveness period to kick in!

Even if the loan forgiveness does not come through immediately, you still should be good on a cash flow position since even as a loan "payments will be deferred for 6 months", which sets you up not to worry about forgiveness or repaying until late in 2020.

We have the same issue and have been taking advantage of all the free on line, live training seminars that the manufacturers are offering. We are calling the program the COVID-19 Work Augmentation Program.

We are also updating all of our tech's OSHA 10 hour certifications and manufacturer required certifications that are expiring in the next six months. Some ideas for great online training:

Hanwah, excellent live instructor taught on line courses (free)

Assa Abloy, some of the absolute best access control device live on line instructor taught classes (free)

Axis Communications, same, excellent live on line classes (free)

Microsoft is also hosting live MS Teams for Small Businesses 100 and 200 Level Classes. Our guys said the 100 level was pretty simple as we are already a huge Teams user. The 200 level class was pretty good though. This is also a GREAT time to set up MS Teams for project management and internal project communication. It was a big undertaking for us when we set it up a year ago.

HID, extensive custom card ordering training. Our team now knows more than every about all that is offered through HID (our techs too). Great private class, for four hours just for our team (free)

N2 intercoms, great free live class

Most of the monitoring companies are offering dealer portal training

ESA is offering a ton a virtual on line training, if you are a member

Pryor learning, we have had a paid account for years in which we host all of our online training. If you have the funds, this is an excellent resource. PMP certification prep, Cisco Prep Courses, A+, Net+, leadership courses, OSHA 10, etc.

And last but not least, IPVM courses! Get them certified!

There really are so many more. And most of our manufacturer partners have offered to host custom online training for our guys at no cost. Many that previously required onsite certification classes have moved to a virtual live certification model - with Genetec being a big one now offering this (and for anyone experienced with the frustration of travel costs and days of missed work associated with getting a tech Genetec certified understands what a big deal this is).

Good luck and be creative!

We have the same issue and have been taking advantage of all the free on line, live training seminars that the manufacturers are offering. We are calling the program the COVID-19 Work Augmentation Program.

We are also updating all of our tech's OSHA 10 hour certifications and manufacturer required certifications that are expiring in the next six months. Some ideas for great online training:

Hanwah, excellent live instructor taught on line courses (free)

Assa Abloy, some of the absolute best access control device live on line instructor taught classes (free)

Axis Communications, same, excellent live on line classes (free)

Microsoft is also hosting live MS Teams for Small Businesses 100 and 200 Level Classes. Our guys said the 100 level was pretty simple as we are already a huge Teams user. The 200 level class was pretty good though. This is also a GREAT time to set up MS Teams for project management and internal project communication. It was a big undertaking for us when we set it up a year ago.

HID, extensive custom card ordering training. Our team now knows more than every about all that is offered through HID (our techs too). Great private class, for four hours just for our team (free)

N2 intercoms, great free live class

Most of the monitoring companies are offering dealer portal training

ESA is offering a ton a virtual on line training, if you are a member

Pryor learning, we have had a paid account for years in which we host all of our online training. If you have the funds, this is an excellent resource. PMP certification prep, Cisco Prep Courses, A+, Net+, leadership courses, OSHA 10, etc.

And last but not least, IPVM courses! Get them certified!

There really are so many more. And most of our manufacturer partners have offered to host custom online training for our guys at no cost. Many that previously required onsite certification classes have moved to a virtual live certification model - with Genetec being a big one now offering this (and for anyone experienced with the frustration of travel costs and days of missed work associated with getting a tech Genetec certified understands what a big deal this is).

Good luck and be creative!

Thanks for the tips. We've done some of the training that you've mentioned (one tech going through IPVM access course now) but I didn't consider Assa Abloy and have two newer techs that need locking hardware, wireless locks, etc. We've also been doing some maint agreement inspections on our exterior access/parking equipment, although that has dwindled now that the county is on lockdown and people are wearing masks.

Thanks again for your input.

Looks like I just got funded today. Ive been hearing many other folks getting funded here locally as well.

Congrats!

So the answer to the original post/question.

Yes for some

No for those of us that got left out.

We got hosed by our bank. We had all of our docs ready to go. My daughter is an accountant and was on top of it. Our bank kept saying they did not have proper guidance from the SBA, and the loans were risky for them and us. Last I heard we were still not approved. As I understand it if we do not have the E tran or tracking # we are screwed.

In hindsight, the program probably could have used some more guidelines. There probably should have been a little more indication of an actual need for the forgiveness. Businesses should have shown a dip in sales, etc.

Jay,

Hopefully this program gets additional funding and soon.

If and when it does, you would be wise to apply at a small regional bank, if you haven't already. According to the site covidloantracker (link below), 76% of accepted loans have been through regional banks. In comparison, BOA and WF account to just 2%! I applied through both BOA and a small bank and was accepted and funded within 2 weeks.

Good luck!

COVID Loan Tracker

I am hoping the IPVM community can help me here.

I understand the money is gone, but I've also read that the SBA is not accepting any more applications. Does that mean that they know the collective amount of all applications they've already received and are balancing that against what they have in the queue for processing or is the coffer truly empty?

We submitted our application on April 3rd (the first day the PPP applications could be submitted) and it's still in the "reviewing application" status on the Bank of America portal.

Does anyone else have insight here or more info into what all this means? I fear it's the latter and somehow BoA messed this up.

At this point, if you don't have an e-Tran number you are out of luck.

Word on the street is if you did not get a E tran or loan tracking #, you will not get the money. Basically as they gave out these tracking #s they were reducing the available funds.

They are probably still funding people but only those that already have funds allocated to them.

I am in exactly the same boat. I have 4 companies that I applied for PPP with bank of America. All were submitted within 30 minutes of the portal going live on April 3rd. None have received approvals and I have received very little in the way of updates. My banker has tried to help but it seems this is out of his control. All my documents were prepared in advance and uploaded as requested. 3 of the companies are very straight forward with payroll in one location and state and one company has payroll in multiple states so there are more forms to upload. Not sure what the issue is, very frustrating. I have kept 90% of my staff on full payroll even though most are working from home with little to nothing to do. I did this in anticipation of the PPP program which is to be used for payroll in order to be forgiven.

Just got an email from paypal saying they are still accepting PPP loans for anyone who is interested. Although it appers that it is anticipation of future funds coming into the program:

Well I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't just see our checking account balance with my own eyes. About an hour ago Bank of America sent an email saying our application had been approved and sure enough the funds are in our account. We are in NY and submitted online with BOA about 2 hours after they opened their portal on that first Friday. Since that time we got contacted twice by two different individuals to clear up issues with our application. We never received an e-tran number or any other indication of how our application was going. Honestly I thought we missed out but kudos to Bank of America for making it happen, we truly are thankful.

#5, congrats! For what it's worth, my gut feel is that there will certainly be more money allocated to PPP as there is great public demand, even outcry for it. Moreover, as the example Sean gave with PayPal, more and more financial institutions are now set up to offer it so when more money is reallocated, more people will be able to apply / access.

MY bank said we were part of 3000 that did not get approved with them. I suspect our loan was pushed back so that their better clients or larger loans would get priority. We had our application ready before they even opened the portal, based on SBA docs. We submitted the application within hours of their portal being open, They said our application is still submitted, and we do not need to do anything else. If additional funds are released, our place in line has not changed.

So do we go to another bank? Pay Pal? Is there harm in applying at another/multiple banks?

Last night I received an email from our bank to sign in and sign the SBA/PPP loan!

I am now awaiting for the bank to fix their 2FA issue so I get the text message so I can log in and sign everything.

I know that is some good news to wake up to!

Congrats!

It is promising but the 2FA issue is frustrating.

2FA fixed and paperwork for PPP loan has been signed.

Our PPP Funds have been deposited.

WSJ is reporting that the US government is negotiating further PPP funding - Mnuchin, Democrats Say They Are Close on Small-Business Funding Agreement - WSJ

The weird story of Shake Shack getting PPP funding - and now returning it after protests:

The most highly valued publicly traded company by far to get a loan under the program was Daniel Meyer’s Shake Shack, the burger chain with a recent stock market capitalization of $1.6 billion. The company had 7,603 employees at the end of 2019, but had laid off or furloughed some 1,000 employees in recent weeks.

Shake Shack was eligible for the Paycheck Protection Program because it does not employ more than 500 people at a single location. It obtained a $10 million loan. Shake Shake, which had $112 million of cash on hand before it sold another $150 million of stock, said on Sunday night it would be returning the $10 million Paycheck Protection Program loan.

I thought about this after I read about Ruth Chris getting a loan.

Sure they have 200 M in cash, but what about their debt? How will that cash hold up over the next few months while they pay rent, expenses etc with a huge drop in sales/revenue?

We got left out, so I am sore about this and certainly not fighting for the big guys.

But ultimately it is going to pay employees that would not have been paid otherwise?

I can not believe how loose this whole thing was handing out $350B like it was candy.

Update: Today, the Senate passed a bill that will add $300 billion more, House expected to pass tomorrow. More money likely coming by the end of the week.