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Integrator Startup Founder Shares Experience - "Constant Balancing Act Trying To Find The Right Attitude Of Willing To Crawl Through Attics And Able To Do Simple Programming"

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jun 23, 2018

I just started my business in January after having been in the industry for 10 years and got tired of doing 90% of the work for 10% of the profit. I made it all the way up to Service Manager at the last company so I got to see the inner workings on the office side. I have been doing good on my own. It is just me and a few guys I use here and there, no full time employees yet. I look for contract work from the bigger companies so I haven't had to focus on sales that much. The biggest problem I have seen in technicians is the "millennial effect" on hard work. Older techs who work hard did not want to learn the new IP based technology and the younger guys that grew up with computers do not want to work hard. I've interviewed and brought on 20 somethings at past companies that full well know what the jobs are going to entail (attics, extreme temp differences, endless cable pulls, etc.) and after a few weeks they would rather sit and play on their phones every chance they get and ask when they are getting promoted after a month. But on the flip side you send a 15 year install vet out to do a small 2 hour job that requires minor programming and they call you 6 hours later baffled by the web UI login screen. It is a constant balancing act trying to find the right attitude of willing to crawl through attics and able to do simple programming. Most of the time it ends up being two employees - one for install and one for programming. Or I am having to take time to do either one or both. 

The benefits have definitely been a huge hurdle. With most of the bigger companies offering a take home vehicle and some of the common benefits it is hard to find good techs that won't even consider you unless you offer the same thing. Health insurance is out of the question for a small business. I can't even afford it for my own family (wife and I are both self employed/own businesses). When they quote you at $1-2k a month, it isn't just a "small amount" that you can adjust their starting pay by. As for pay scales, $10-12 for cable pullers and basic installers, $12-18 for minor experience, and $18-30 for experienced installers, leads, and service techs. I think that is pretty common for Texas. Add to each $5-15 burden rate for basic things like time off and the various insurances/licenses and it starts to get pretty expensive keeping someone on full time in an industry that sees more waves than a Hawaii beach. Most people that haven't ran a business forget about the burden rate part. They just see the $12/hour and think that's low for an installer. It is actually more like $16-$18. So at ~$65/install hour on bids, having two or three installers and a lead on site starts to eat away the profit if your techs can't do the job in the quoted hours.

On that note, I've had a fun time trying to figure out each techs actual install capabilities per hour so I can bid jobs properly. I came up as an installer so I know how an hour of work really equates to about 40 minutes of work when you factor in the multiple van visits, Facebook/Insta checks, text message responses, and smoke breaks to complain about the company/client/job. For some techs it is even less. Over time you can start to see the patterns that it takes Bob a full hour to install that one 20 minute camera and Smith can do it in 15 minutes. Luckily they kind of balance each other out and hopefully the quality of install is good, no one gets hurt on the job, and good attitudes prevail. 

In the end I don't regret starting my own business. It's been a fun learning experience and I am always learning! Just look for someone that has the good outlook, is willing to get dirty when you need them too, and knows what "IP" means.

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: Business Owners, How Did You Grow Your Business? Who Were Your First Hires?

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JH
John Honovich
Jun 23, 2018
IPVM

Thanks for sharing and congrats on starting your own business! I made this its own post because it has a number of insightful points.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jun 25, 2018

Thanks John!

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jun 23, 2018

The IP savvy hard-worker you desire is out there.  That person is not quite a unicorn, but close.  The challenge you will face is that bigger companies know how valuable this technician is and will do everything within their power to retain them: take home trucks, premium rates, etc.  Depending on your location many of these individuals may be in the union making them harder to acquire/steal particularly if you are a non-union shop.

Since personnel challenges have been ongoing at every company I allocate some of my project budget to training classes.  Unfortunately since I am a small part of a larger company those team members I train get stolen and hoarded by other PMs.  Retaining anyone I have invested in training on is difficult but necessary for the greater health of the company. Perhaps you may have greater luck being a sole proprietor.

Good luck making the leap to a small business owner - I wish I had the fortitude to do the same!

 

 

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #8
Jun 25, 2018

In my area the issue seems to be the people that are good with the IT stuff, and like doing the hard work eventually get frustrated or burnt out and leave the industry. I am starting to find myself in that situation. I like a good mix. Some days maybe I don't really want to pull a bunch of cable, and other days maybe I don't want to sit in front of a desk and do programming all day. Lately I find I get stuck doing all the IT stuff, cause the "old guys" can't or won't. So I get bored, restless, and feel myself getting fat.

I have found I generally prefer to be left alone. Some one said down below about how people who are IT savy and like doing the nitty gritty stuff would prefer to work for themselves, and to a certain degree I can agree with that. I don't want to work for myself, I don't think I have the business skills to survive. But I do prefer being left alone. 

Give me the job details, the floor plans, the help I may or may not need and let me do it. Micromanaging is the worst, but rampant, at least where I am. If you want me to stick around, just let me do my job and leave me alone. 

Now putting that into words makes it sound harsher than I intend. I do of course understand you own/operate the business. You're responsible for the profit and what not, can't just let me do their own thing. I get that, but If I've worked for you long enough that you get the sense of the kind of worker I am, and that I do get the jobs done generally within hours, why not back off a bit? My previous manager, at my previous employer, was the worst for this. Constantly telling me how I'm like one of the best techs he's ever had, how much he trusts me with important jobs, blah blah, but then rides my ass the whole way through a project. Asking me one month into a three month project if I am done yet, do you think I can be done in a week or two. Why aren't you done yet? Etc.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Jun 24, 2018

As for pay scales, $10-12 for cable pullers and basic installers, $12-18 for minor experience, and $18-30 for experienced installers, leads, and service techs. 

Are you kidding? Day laborers in Home Depot parking lots around here get $10-$12 an hour for the gruntiest of grunt work. Cable pulling, which requires a modicum of intelligence and basic English skills, should pay better. 

You get what you pay for. Would you buy the absolute cheapest drill? Would you install the absolute cheapest camera? Would you choose the absolute cheapest service vehicle? 

Then why would you hire the cheapest cable pullers you can?

Yes, it's an investment. But offering more money allows you to be choosier. You'll attract more candidates, which will allow you to be more comfortable firing lazy idiots. 

You get what you pay for. Offer crappy pay will only get you crappy candidates. 

Benefits are great, but if you want to attract young, hungry employees, you need to up your pay scales, not your benefits- and, as you have already found, people old enough to care about benefits are generally lacking in computer skills. 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jun 24, 2018

Are you in Texas? The pay scale I stated is used by the majority of bigger companies in my area. I'd know because I came up through most of them and those were the ranges I got paid. And also set for some of them. You ignored my statement on burden rate. At $12-$14 with benefits, it's really more like $16-$20/hour my cost. Multiply that by 2-3 low level installers, and your profit margin vanishes. You'd have to up the rate you charge per labor hour and in turn, lose potential bids.

If you are using day laborers, you are part of the problem. Paying anyone over $12-14 dollars an hour with no experience and no schooling is more than enough pay. If they don't want that much to do dirty work, they can go flip burgers at McDonald's. If they are performing actual security installations, then yes, they are worth more like $18/hour. They would also have to be legally here and have a security installers license. But we all know how a lot of companies seem to forget that aspect and use them anyways.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Jun 24, 2018

At $12-$14 with benefits, it's really more like $16-$20/hour my cost. Multiply that by 2-3 low level installers, and your profit margin vanishes.

And I'm telling you not to bother with benefits. The kinds of people you want as cable pullers don't care about most benefits, other than PTO and maybe a paid cellphone with data. They want cash. Raise your starting pay. Instead of paying $16-$20 an hour, of which the cable puller only sees $12-$14, cut your benefits and offer $14-$16. 

Paying anyone over $12-14 dollars an hour with no experience and no schooling is more than enough pay. If they don't want that much to do dirty work, they can go flip burgers at McDonald's. 

I mean, you're not wrong, but if the pay you're offering isn't attracting the kind of talent you need, then the only thing you can do is raise your pay until you do start attracting the talent you need. Yes, it blows up your profit margin, but so does taking three times as long to actually complete the job because you keep having to hire worthless lazy scumbags. 

Paying two cable pullers $15 an hour to finish a job in 16 hours is cheaper than paying three cable pullers $10 an hour to finish a job in 30. You're being penny wise and pound foolish, bro. 

Also...

If you are using day laborers, you are part of the problem... They would also have to be legally here and have a security installers license. But we all know how a lot of companies seem to forget that aspect and use them anyways.

I don't use day laborers, but I have worked for companies that have used day laborers. Hire one or two guys per trained tech, tell the tech that they're now "crew chiefs" (without actually raising their pay, teaching them how to run a crew, or even checking to see if they speak any Spanish). Then get rid of your "crew" when the job is done. That's how these tiny companies get away with low-balling bids for jobs they are in no way capable of actually doing.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jun 24, 2018

Burden isn't just medical and days off. It includes all aspects of keeping an employee on. How am I supposed to cut the burden rate when I have to cover Business insurance, workman's comp insurance, vehicle insurance, licenses, training, taxes, etc.? You usually don't get benefits until after a few years experience. We comp them for medical to a degree. I've seen low level techs get vehicles to take home, and their starting pay is around $16-18. Let's calculate their burden... Vehicle costs, vehicle insurance for a 20 something (usually male) tech is astronomical, payroll taxes, insurance, workers comp insurance, time off, some comp for medical, training them using other techs is a burden and expensive, managing them with a PM or Lead tech, should I keep going? Just because their hourly pay says $17.75, doesn't mean that's what they cost for me to keep them on. And techs these days are good for about 30 minutes to the hour. So really I am paying them around $8 to drag their feet and complain about work. The other $8 is their true worth.

Should I just do what all the businesses do around here and bring on guys without licensing any of them hoping I won't get audited? As a Security Manager that wouldn't be wise. 

You didn't answer if you were in Texas. The rates we use are pretty standard for this part of America. If you are in the North East/West or California, I would see having to pay guys $16 dollars an hour for menial tasks. But around here, paying someone $12 an hour is much better than minimum wage jobs. I've only had millinieals complain about making $12 an hour with their vast knowledge from public high school. Talent doesn't come with pay. I've seen techs making $25 an hour and they couldn't tell you the difference between Analog and Digital. But they happen to be the PMs cousin. And I've seen PMs making $80k a year that couldn't tell you the different types of equipment being installed, the best was a "ops manager" asked me if extension ladders came in bigger sizes than 20 ft. Again, they knew someone to get hired and the owners are oblivious because they are rolling in money and as long as it's coming in they could careless how that is happening. 

Do you run a business by chance? 

 

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Jun 24, 2018

No, I'm not in Texas.

It's very possible that you're paying market rate for your area, but I'm telling you that market rate is not good enough. There's a shortage of techs out there, and everybody is stealing techs from everybody else. If you want to compete, you have to differentiate yourself in some way so you can afford to be choosy. Otherwise, you're going to end up with crap, and there's very little you can do about it because the techs are fully aware that they can get another job with the exact same paycheck tomorrow. 

You cannot compare yourself with McDonald's pay scales, because cable pulling is not equivalent to flipping burgers at McDonald's. 

You also should not be surprised that techs will do as little work as the can get away with. 

If you have one lazy tech who won't perform, then that tech is lazy. Get rid of him. But if none of your techs perform, then maybe it's worth looking at yourself, and figuring out why you can't make your techs perform. Getting work out of people is a skill, one that must be learned and cultivated. 

When I became a manager, I thought I could just order my guys to do stuff, and they'd do it. Eventually, I learned that employees would work just hard enough to not get fired and that's it, unless you use a mix of positive and negative reinforcement to get them to work harder. This is especially true of a small business like yours, which cannot necessarily afford to pay for the best of the best, people who are self motivated and will work hard whether the manager is on top of them or not. 

I do not currently run a business now. I have run businesses in the past, and expect to run a business again before my career is over. Right now I'm working for someone else, making a commission. The owner only cares whether I bring in business or not, and it's a lot less stressful not having to manage a team of personalities and having to worry about motivating people or worrying about who is going to call out sick Monday morning. But I fully expect to get back into management at some point, because frankly that's where the money is. 

Management isn't easy, but it is necessary. Getting your team to perform takes a lot of work, but that's why you get the big bucks. 

And don't complain about lazy Millenials. That's weak. I've known young guys who worked like animals, and I've known old guys that wouldn't do anything unless the manager was right there staring at them and yelling, and I've seen everything in between. 

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U
Undisclosed #4
Jun 24, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Older techs who work hard did not want to learn the new IP based technology and the younger guys that grew up with computers do not want to work hard.

Boss: Go to the truck and grab the glow sticks, some fish tape and the cordless, make your penetration and run this backhaul cable thru the attic and back down, ok?

Young Tech: Right...  Or... maybe I should grab a couple of those nanobeams instead and shoot it right across the house at 450mbps.  Easy peasy.

Boss:  Well, it’s your call.  And I promise I’ll give you a good price on the nanobeams.

Young Tech: Very funny.  I’ll get the fish tape...

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U
Undisclosed #5
Jun 24, 2018

If one understands the benefits of mastering a craft they will no need the hard work ethic. Great aptitude will come naturally.

In regards to the old guy not understanding basic SQL, Networking or Cloud services versus the young kid that is not yet a bull that can get things done. This analogy extends all the way up to security consultants where there equation can go like this.

I have 30 years of security experience, however I fail to realize that 25 of those years are antiquated technologies. I cannot be proven wrong and if challenged I have a case close mentality.

If you don't love what you do then you have ZERO experience, even after 30 years.

Think of your technicians as karate students, needing your mentorship to change the color of belt they wear. Instill pride, accomplishment and reward them with a the authenticity of a hug. Breed a second family social. If they do not make the cut it is very easy to spot the family drunk.

Now...back to those old analog security consultants that think they are the $hit....simply add the knowledge base they have however if you have to make a technological analysis on current trends then find and consult those beasts and not the old washed up man. It may be cruel, but sometimes it is better to take a step forward than backward with technology. The only way systems develop and mature is time spent in production. An old man will tell you what works and the young man will be eager to get it to work.

Case closed, comets and all.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #6
Jun 25, 2018

Many integrators are not pulling cable anymore.  The majority issues you are struggling with might go away if you can find local structured cable companies to pull cabling for you.   Perhaps a "parts & smarts" profile, whereby you sell and program security systems, and not pull wire , might help you overcome the "grunt" issues you are having?

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Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Jun 25, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

I think the issues you are having finding someone who is willing to do the dirty work AND has the tech skills needed doesn’t want to work for someone else. They want to work for themselves and be independent. They have the knowledge to do exactly what you did; branch out on your own. And you can hardly blame them, you did it yourself. What you will likely need to do is create a partnership in some manor to share the workload. You will have to find a fair balance that makes sense to both sides.

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U
Undisclosed #4
Jun 25, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Yes, he wants to hire himself from 5 years ago ;)

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jun 25, 2018

Those shoes will never be filled.

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U
Undisclosed #4
Jun 26, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Those shoes will never be filled.

Actually you can tell a lot about a prospective employee on footwear alone.

Someone who wears Red Wings will likely outlast their boots ;)

    

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Jun 25, 2018

So, I have been there a lot of years ago and some fine points were made by all.

Right now, the industry is busy so even the worst installers are busy and starting to command higher dollars and benefits.   When it slows down, they will be collecting unemployment.

One subject not identified was your choice to avoid sales by doing all sub-contracting.  You are the low cost labor solution and much of the profit has been taken.

Many of the successful people doing what you do strive to make their own organic growth at a higher profit, benefitting from the labor pool kept around by doing contract work until they can build enough without it. 

Some, focus exclusively on contracting but have such an extensive offering of services and labor pool that they demand and get a higher wage.

In my day, when I sub contracted, we received a basic rate of $22.00 per wire run, excluding conduit work, under 100’, no programming.  Basic panel or camera programming was included in the $75.00 panel charge. 

I was getting $30.00 for the same and $100.00 for the panel.   Quality and negotiations made all the difference and when work slowed, I didn’t.  Your work has to be visibly superior to command a superior price or your cost has to be substantially lower than using in house labor. 

Just my $30.00 worth. 

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Sean Nelson
Jun 25, 2018
Nelly's Security

Good help is hard to find for sure but it has nothing to do with age group. People have been complaining about the younger generations for years. Also, pay is definetely important but I'd say you need to look deeper too.

It really begins with the job posting and your ability to explain your ultimate vision for the company and your explanation for the employee to be a part of that vision. if you put up something basic like "Local CCTV installer looking for full time installers. Experience helps, but not needed, will train. 40 hours a week. Must pass drug test"
Then all you are going to get are people who are looking to put in their hours to get a paycheck.

 

However, if you have a big vision for your company and fully explain to your prospect on how they can be a part of that vision, you are apt to find someone who may be looking for a career and who genuinely cares for the betterment of your company. Good people are looking to be a part of something great, rather than simply being a "unit of production."

You really need to hit a home run with your first full time hires. Trying to find someone "experienced" for this position would be very low on my priority list. Finding someone who is hungry, humilative, and has a great attitude would be my top priority, because they will learn fast and will quickly excel past an experienced mediocre person in no time. It takes time to interview, find and train people like this, but its definetely worth the wait. Good luck!

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DR
Dennis Ruban
Jun 25, 2018

Just wanted to share how we did it in Eastern Europe. We had the cable infrastructure guys (cable pulling, terminating, installing cable channels, low voltage and electrical work). Not the brightest guys in the world but hard working.

And we had engineers to do all the high-level job like configuration, testing, troubleshooting.

I was surprised when I figured the NA approach when all the system integrators want to mix those duties and hire the universal technicians. I still think it's wrong: demotivating for employees and not efficient from a business perspective.

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SD
Shannon Davis
Jun 25, 2018
IPVMU Certified

This is the best explanation of a small integrator business ever. The constant time on the cell phone drives me absolutely insane as well as the smoke breaks and the whining and crying about the work. 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Jun 25, 2018

Agreed .. these personal games like Candy Crush and such steal more productivity than anything else I have ever seen in the field.  I was running a retrofit project once where every time I left a tech alone for even a minute, he'd whip out his phone and start playing.  His head was never in the work.

 

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