Subscriber Discussion

If I Was CEO Of A Large Manufacturing Company, I Would Instruct All My Employees To Never Speak To IPVM

Honestly, if I was CEO of a large manufacturing company, I would instruct all my employees to never speak to IPVM. Luckily, im just an owner of a small business so I can blurt out all kinds of stuff as loud as I want to. (there is an ally oop for you, feel free to slam dunk with statement such as "you got that right")

As far as Hikvisions example, their is absolutely 0 benefit for them to speak to IPVM. You have annihilated & vaporized that bridge along time ago. I honestly doubt they will respond to you anytime in the near future, if ever again. I also doubt they care about your opinion about whether its beneficial for them to do so or not. Given the fact that this site has a strong reputation for being a non-objective Hik Hater site, I think they could care less about winning IPVM over. I'm not sure why you even report that they don't respond to your inquiries, because everyone be like "Duh". The sky is also blue, but no need to report on that. 

Not trying to be a jerk, just keeping it real.

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: Hikvision Deepinmind Tested Terribly

Agree: 5
Disagree: 14
Informative: 4
Unhelpful: 1
Funny

Keep it real, Sean! I made this its own post because it's an interesting topic.

Essentially every large manufacturer talks to us. It varies which people, but usually, key management people, sometimes off the record, sometimes on.

As for Hikvision, they have made it clear to us why they won't speak to us. It is because of our reporting on the Chinese government (aka Hikvision's owner), not anything about testing nor products. As you know by reading IPVM, criticize the Chinese government on social media, you risk getting kidnapped, so it's understandably a sensitive subject for Hikvision. On the other hand, we are not going to censor ourselves to bow down to the Chinese government.

Now, generally, the reason we reach out to manufacturers, is that even if we disagree on issues, we strive to get their point of view and include it in our coverage. It is a matter of fairness to them and completeness to our readers.

On the minority of occasions when manufacturers refuse to talk, that's their issue. We will continue to report.

Overall, though, manufacturers recognize our intentions to be fair and thorough, and that's why they continue to provide us input.

Agree: 15
Disagree: 1
Informative: 4
Unhelpful: 2
Funny

fair and thorough

I have found its not really worth my time explaining to you how you are so unbalanced towards your negative reporting to Hikvision. Your so delusional that you are too far gone. Too exhausting. You win!

Agree: 4
Disagree: 25
Informative
Unhelpful: 4
Funny

The irony of your suggestion that IPVM is "far too gone" on this subject is beyond hilarious.

Only one of you has a financial stake in Hikvision being successful and having a positive public image.

It's a shame that you're unable to separate yourself from the fact that there are documented examples of Hikvision having major issues because you are so embedded with them.

Agree: 16
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

Only one of you has a financial stake in Hikvision being successful and having a positive public image.

This sounds like a statement coming from someone in which IPVM specifically markets to in their sales efforts. Unfortunately I have to inform you, you've been had.

Agree
Disagree: 12
Informative
Unhelpful: 2
Funny

I'm curious what sales efforts does IPVM actively target?  I pay my money every year the same as everyone else around here and I see the occasional notification for their classes, but other than that what are they selling?  They have the subscriber base they do because obviously we all find some kind of value to be here whether that's for information, reviews or whatever.  I've always found the claim they "attack Hik to increase their own sales" to be laughable and devoid of basis in reality.  Face it, you hitched your wagon to a loser and no amount of complaining about the coverage of that loser is going to change the fact it's a loser.

Agree: 4
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 1

This has been discussed in length before. I've exhausted my explanative powers on this subject, feel free to research my extensive divine knowledge on my previous posts regarding this. If you dont mind, I prefer to keep the name "Hikvision Money Train" as opposed to the "losing wagon". All aboard! Desitination: obscene profits!

Agree
Disagree: 1
Informative
Unhelpful: 2
Funny: 4

Sean, didn't we all hear this same story from you about Dahua? 

Agree: 1
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

Similar. Different vessel. That was the Dahua Money Ship. "Boatloads of money to be had by all"  Unfortunately the Ship Sank.

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 11

My bet is your still paying for that... For your sake, I hope we don't have to read version 2. 

Agree: 2
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 2

If you spent less time bloviating on IPVM and more time selling non-Hikvision products you could have a larger company with a "no talking to IPVM" policy.

Agree: 3
Disagree: 1
Informative
Unhelpful: 1
Funny: 15

Cool, let me know more about your products so my company can get bigger

Agree: 3
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 8

I could not agree more, you are right on the money.....

Agree: 1
Disagree: 2
Informative
Unhelpful: 2
Funny: 6

14 Disagree’s but no Unhelpful's:

Impressive and laudable restraint shown by the IPVM community. Kudos!

Agree: 1
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful: 4
Funny: 3

So, speaking as the person doing the testing, I think that this statement is false:

As far as Hikvisions example, their is absolutely 0 benefit for them to speak to IPVM.

There is only benefit to speaking to us about these tests. Speaking to us gives them the opportunity to:

  • Prior to the test: Give recommendations for how their product should be configured and why. This very much helps contextualize the entire test.
  • During the test: Respond to performance issues we find with suggestions on how they might be improved. This isn't going to turn bad results good, but allows the opportunity for feedback, at least.
  • After the test: At the very least provide a company PR line on the results, discuss plans for improvement, etc.

What is the drawback to speaking to us? Legitimizing our existence? I hate to tell them, but it's a little late for that.

We are going to test. Why you would not want your official company positions on the record is beyond me.

Agree: 22
Disagree
Informative: 7
Unhelpful
Funny

There is only benefit to speaking to us about these tests. 

Unfortunately not when you have a history of twisting things into a conspiracy theory

 

Agree
Disagree: 13
Informative
Unhelpful: 8
Funny: 2

Sean, whether a manufacturer agrees or disagrees with our conclusions, the benefit of speaking to us is that we will include their input in the post.

A perfect example of this is David from DVS. He gave us (at least somewhat) positive feedback and we included that prominently in the test. We would have happily done the same for Hikvision.

Agree: 3
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful: 1
Funny

Sean did you just coin a new term? Hik Hater? Has a nice ring to it.

I have to say though, IPVM is hard (rightfully so) on all of our budget camera manufacturers and surprisingly also on the higher end manufacturers when they screw up too. Does that mean the Hik/Dahua/Axis/etc should just cut them off and ignore them because IPVM disclosed some flaw or vulnerability or dirty secret?

I don’t think so... but then again I am a big believer in extreme ownership and taking accountability. You seem to have no problem with taking accountability for your actions and statements as you regularly go rounds with John and others here, and I respect you for that. So why can’t the giant megacorp that is Hik put someone up to the task of either going a few rounds with the IPVM team or at least have some accountability and giving informed statements to genuine questions?

I know the other manufacturer’s do it, even though some of them feel like IPVM is picking on them... as if  these multi-billion dollar companies could really be bullied and pushed around by a small group of subject matter experts/bloggers/journalists? 

Agree: 12
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

Hik Hater

Im not sure if I coined it, but it definitely started somewhere here on this site.

I have to say though, IPVM is hard (rightfully so) on all of our budget camera manufacturers and surprisingly also on the higher end manufacturers when they screw up too.

Not exactly. Most definetely not fair. For example, take a look at their powder puff criticism (or lack thereof) of the Genetec security flub in which a Washington DC police station's Genetec system was hacked due to Genetec sending out products with default username and pw. If you read the article, its hardly critical, almost forgiving. The article is rarely mentioned. However, lets take a look at the Hikvision Security flub which was patched early last year. Their are a multitude of headlines, sarcastic comments, and even a nice little Map that IPVM made in which they exploited the exploit and hacked many unknowingly innocent peoples cameras. So please let me know, in your honest opinion if this is fair and balanced? I will let you search for the articles. You may have a hard time finding the references for the Genetec Hack, but I assure you, you will have no trouble finding the infinite # of articles referencing Hikvisions.

Agree
Disagree: 6
Informative: 1
Unhelpful: 1
Funny

Ok to be fair, the Chinese budget manufacturers are the most often  criticized here on IPVM. However also to be fair they are the ones most often making mistakes.

As for the Genentec vulnerability there were several articles and discussions here  which referenced it. Also you must admit that there is a substantial difference between, if what I remember is acurate, installer/seller negligence compared to Hikua backdoors and wide spread hacks (which happened to several units that we sold).

Now I agree with you that to post publicly the map of hacked cameras might have been ethicly questionable. However I believe the reason it was done for Hikvision and not Dahua and the others, is that the Hik supporters and the company line were trying very hard to downplay the impact and spread of vulnerabilities. What IPVM did in my opinion was provide irrefutable proof of their claims and to take away the majority of excuses that were being used.

Like it or not, I believe that John and the team see these types of activities as providing a public service. If they garner some new memberships in the process more power to them. Heck to be honest, their articles early last year about the China-Hik connection are what prompted me to subscribe. Afterwards I realized what a wealth of information was made available here and the awesome tools like the calculator which combined have helped me take my business to the next level.

Say what you will my friend, but IPVM no matter its flaws provides a great value to our industry. Which is why I believe you continue to subscribe? That and maybe the enjoyment of spirited debate?

Agree: 10
Disagree
Informative: 2
Unhelpful
Funny

As for the Genentec vulnerability there were several articles and discussions here which referenced it

My point is, not even remotely close to the number of references to Hik.

 if what I remember is acurate, installer/seller negligence

Sending out devices with default usernames and pw is installer negligence? If you read the IPVM article, then yes, one would be persuaded to come to that conclusion, which solidifies my point. 

their articles early last year about the China-Hik connection are what prompted me to subscribe.

Just posting this to solidify my previous points about IPVM being invested in Hikvision

Say what you will my friend, but IPVM no matter its flaws provides a great value to our industry. Which is why I believe you continue to subscribe? That and maybe the enjoyment of spirited debate?

No disagreements here. Im just here to offer facts on IPVM's sometimes "opinion based" reporting

Agree: 1
Disagree: 4
Informative
Unhelpful: 2
Funny

I will give you this, they are invested in Hikvision and Dahua and every other company out there who makes a major mistake. If I hadn’t seen multiple shares of the China-Hik connection article on LinkedIn, I would have come searching for answers on the Dahua hacks a few months later, or the OEM directories after that.

Agree: 1
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

Sending out devices with default usernames and pw is installer negligence? If you read the IPVM article, then yes, one would be persuaded to come to that conclusion, which solidifies my point.

 

I didn't read the IPVM article you're referring to however:

You can argue this point all day and not come to agreement.  Some would say the manuf shouldn't provide default user/pw while others would argue it speeds up install.  I don't think it really matters as long as the seller/installer knows what they're doing.

Bottom line is that any integrator worth his/her salt would know better than to leave ANY factory default settings in place if they haven't looked specifically at the default and made a decision during the install re:  appropriateness for that particular project and, security (that IS what we all do for a living right?) impact of leaving the defaults.  So I would argue that the seller/installer was definitely negligent if there was a breach based on having failed to change the username & password.  

PS:  I've worked for several integrators in my 30+years and changing username/passwords was CCTV 101 stuff. I was in sales and even I knew that! Even the greenest installer should know better than to walk away from it with the factory default info in there!

If an end user is hiring integrators who simply plug it in and leave all the defaults in place maybe they need to vet their integrators a little better.

Agree: 3
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

the Hikvision Security flub which was patched early last year

That 'flub' was a magic string backdoor in tens of millions of cameras plus defaulting those cameras to enable UPnP, compounding the danger.

The Genetec security 'flub' is to the Hikvision security 'flub' what Nelly's Security is to Amazon.

Agree: 6
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful: 1
Funny: 8

The Genetec security 'flub' is to the Hikvision security 'flub' what Nelly's Security is to Amazon.

On IPVM's platform and the way it was reported, you are 100% correct.

Agree
Disagree: 4
Informative
Unhelpful: 4
Funny

Wait, you're being serious?

Agree: 1
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 6

I think it would be more reasonable to say "if I was CEO of a manufacturer, I would instruct all my employees to be extremely cautious when speaking to IPVM." 

IPVM has demonstrated a willingness to criticize anyone for anything, as they see fit, including attacking companies for misstatements, exaggerated claims, and the sort of loose talk that most salespeople engage in from time to time. 

Which is vital for the health of our industry, of course. I remember what the video surveillance industry was like before IPVM, and I know what the intrusion industry is like now. You cannot get away with bogus claims in the surveillance industry anymore, but you may be able to get away with them in the intrusion industry, making video marketing material easier to believe overall than intrusion marketing material. 

Treat IPVM with a healthy dose of caution, don't say anything untrue or stupid, and you'll be fine. 

Oh, and you better hope you actually have a decent product, because IPVM isn't shy about pointing out any flaws they can find. 

Agree: 10
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

I think one of the main differences between the video market and intrusion/access/fire markets is there are a lot fewer regulations and standards placed on it because its simply not a life safety system. With intrusion and obviously especially fire, there are a ton of rules/codes/laws/etc that keep much of that market in check from going to far off the wild-claims deep end.

Agree: 5
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

Isn't it pretty standard for almost any large company to not allowed their employees to speak to the media? When I worked for Chubb Edwards I must have received at least six emails from corporate in my three years reminding me about the policy that any requests from media should be directed to the VP of Marketing or what ever.

Agree
Disagree
Informative: 2
Unhelpful
Funny

Daniel, agreed, it is standard for large companies to have policies against employees speaking to the media. Related, IPVM's undisclosed commenting policy.

In Sean's case, he means that plus management (including the VP of marketing) not to talk to IPVM as well. That is the more extreme case and, unfortunately for Sean's position, quite uncommon.

Agree
Disagree
Informative: 1
Unhelpful: 1
Funny

If I was the CEO, I would send my products to IPVM for testing, and get feedback to improve the products. ( and have bragging rights when they came out on top!)

I would encourage my staff to join, so they can better understand and pick up industry information.

I would however have a policy in place so that official communications would be coordinated so corporate information would be provided in the correct context, without disparaging any competitors and to accurately and honestly reflect product performance, and details. 

Agree: 14
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

#5, good feedback. We agree about official communications and we have connections to appropriate management people in each company to coordinate that. While we know lots of employees and talk with them, we avoid using them to represent the company's 'official' position.

Agree
Disagree
Informative: 3
Unhelpful: 1
Funny

I totally agree UD#5 but when you are making products so cheap quality is not something you are concerned about unfortunately! I have chosen as a professional Security Integrator to sell and install products that I can 100% support my client and the manufacture will support me. Axis has proven to me over the last 10 years to be the best in the business and I can stand behind the product 100% and support my client the way they deserve to be supported after the sale has been completed. Axis tech support has been absolutely awesome and by far the best I have ever experienced in my 30 years in the system integration business. Axis doesn't pay me to endorse their product I have just have chosen to stand behind their product because of my personal experiences with them over the years. I have also been installing Mobotix for approx 8 years now and have some fairly large systems out there but the constant issues with erdinfo file corruption now being addressed properly and the software crashing and definitely not being intuitive has made my decision to offer Axis as my Gold Standard in IP Camera Systems. Mobotix is a fantastic product from a hardware standpoint and are pretty well bulletproof in mostly any enviornment but they really need to address the issues mentioned above to contend with Axis. I have 6 Axis cameras onboard a ROV vessel for an offshore oil company here in Newfoundland, Canada and they are exposed to the most brutal conditions known to man and yet have survived in the frigid, cold North Atlantic Ocean going on 6+ years now! That is a complete testament of the difference between a company that manufactures high-end quality professional products and a chinese company that manufactures products for the mass market and for unreputable so called security dealers looking to fill their pockets and turn a quick buck! Who do you think is going to look after their customer after the sales transaction has been completed!

Agree: 2
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

How much to put a [ IPVM#1 ] sticker on a hikvision 4mp dome?

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 7

about treefiddy.

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 6

A reference to a South Park episode from 20 years ago?  Pretty sure no one got that.

Agree: 1
Disagree: 2
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

I guess I'm young enough to know you don't give the sea monster treefiddy.

Agree: 1
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 2

It wont be long before a manufacturer starts selling a low cost camera for right around.... tree fiddy. Sorry, I just couldn't help myself. 

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 1

Apparently more people remember the episode than I thought...

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

I would take the opposite approach, honestly. If I were in charge of a large manufacturing company I'd look to IPVM and other community driven resources that could give me the best possible pulse on the industry and maintain a line of communication where I can learn and pivot based on how the industry views my company and reacts to my product releases. Knowing IPVM doesn't take freebees, I'd at least offer them first-look engineering samples that could give me insights of potential product failings from reviews and their reactions.

In fact, I'd combine the market research and PR budgets and have the product development and testing department bleed over into these departments to increase responsiveness to feedback.

Criticism is not something to reel from, it is something to embrace as an opportunity to adapt and grow further.

Agree: 7
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

Probably true, but speaking just for myself, I don't come here to read manufacturer's comments (which are probably 95% BS anyway) but to read the IPVM reviews and integrator comments, both of which are much more likely to reflect real-world scenarios and experiences.

Agree: 2
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

Hopefully Beff Jezos will pop in here every now and then to talk about his doorbell cams.

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful: 1
Funny: 4

Hopefully Beff Jezos will pop in here every now and then to talk about his doorbell cams.

He will wait until they're hacked, then send OEMs in to lay cover fire.

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 2

And how Washington Post got some leaked images

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

Sometimes the reports are very direct and not in line with the American political correct way and are not the "music that those manufacturers" wanted to hear, I find it very good. Blatant to the face is the way to go.

if a manufacturer has something to hide, yes he will state 

"I Instruct All My Employees To Never Speak To IPVM"

IPVM bought at MSRP price (no freebies!!!) from us our PdbU, tested it better than we did (!!!), the high valuable feedbacks from users gave us ideas for more new products.

To me, this is the great value. If our product was crap and IPVM would not test properly and it was recommended, then it would be a bad service to me and users.

The bottom line, if you have a good product and you want to share and willing to face any type of feedback for good and bad, IPVM is the right place.

The politic parts are as important as the tech parts.

Thanks, 

Agree: 5
Disagree
Informative: 3
Unhelpful
Funny

If I were a manufacturer whose business model was based on low-cost, high volume, junk I agree with Sean,

 

If I were a manufacturer whose business model was making high-quality stuff and trying to get that into professionals hands to be the go-to solution then I agree with #5.

As an integrator who tries to offer my customers high-quality, simple solutions that don't need constant support I look for products that allow me to offer that.  I come here to help me get information to make those decisions, and appreciate the value I get from it.

Agree: 6
Disagree
Informative: 1
Unhelpful
Funny: 1

I feel compelled to reply to this argument here. I head up a small commercial integration firm. We have a group license to IPVM. I have never instructed my team not talk to IPVM. I am not here to judge, but in my opinion it is a shame to deter employees from participation in these forums or any other industry related forum. I and my team find there is much to gain in conversing with our industry colleagues. That being said, it is critical that our I and our employees think about the consequences of their words and opinions on IPVM, just as any other forum or social media platform.

I too, get tired of the Hikvision articles and banners, and agree from all the headlines in IPVM, that there may be a bias against them. But... we don't use Hik, so I don't read them. Since I don't read it, my opinion is only perceived. You get to choose what to read and what not to. Tune what you don't need out, and enjoy and utilize the rest. 

Example: Dynamic vs Static IP Addresses

Agree: 3
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

At the risk of Sean getting me fired, I would like to once again state that, based on my experience working for three manufacturers, the people at IPVM make assertions that they are confident they can substantiate. Sometimes the truth hurts. However, my experience has been that the people at IPVM always operate from: 1. They are open to be shown how they are wrong (in fact, they invite that), and 2. They give equal recognition when a problem is acknowledged and addressed by the manufacturer. Name calling does not fit this modus operandi. However, love it or hate it, if someone escalates (descends?) an argument to calling John names, he is up to that exchange, too. 

There are many people who matter to our business who read IPVM and use its unique tools. So, hmm, something about babies and bathwater...

If you don't appreciate IPVM, don't read it. Just continue to pay your annual membership fee (LOL).

Agree: 2
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 2

is this facebook, I'm getting the two confused...?

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 2

In large companies, most of the employees are instructed not to speak to ANY journalist on an official basis; communication only comes from authorized folks who (theoretically) know what they're doing.

The authorized communicators can do one of three things, if consulted:

1. Speak to the journalist and hope the journalist records their point of view.

2. Refuse to speak to the journalist, thus reducing the chance that the company's point of view is incorporated in the article (and, at a minimum, guaranteeing a "We contacted Company X, but they refused to comment").

3. Refuse to speak to the journalist, then go on another forum and attack the journalist.

Perhaps I'm naïve, but option 3 doesn't seem like the wisest strategy.

Agree: 1
Disagree
Informative: 2
Unhelpful
Funny

3. Refuse to speak to the journalist, then go on another forum and attack the journalist.

Perhaps I'm naïve, but option 3 doesn't seem like the wisest strategy.

It is, indeed, an interesting strategy.

May I add point 4. Have random dealers or distributors speak on the manufacturer's behalf, often contradicting or embarassing the manufacturer.

What I have seen over the years is that anger and emotions overcome good judgment, resulting in this tactic

Agree: 4
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny: 1

I totaly agree with the headline! The same would obviously go for all other media as well. It is the only way to maintain some control of what information that's beeing shared.

Just as obvious is the exceptons.. Appointed spokespersons whos job is to handle inquiries from media.

I don't understand the criticism of ipvm pointing out that Hikvision, or any other, refuses to respond. Where I'm from (Norway) it would be concidered bad journalism to criticize someone, without giving them a chance to respond to your critics. When you invite that someone to give their response, and maybe even a good chancecto deffend themself against what they maight feel as unjust accusations, it again seems obvious that this needs to be reported in the article.

From my point of view, IPVM seems to be fair in their testing and critics of all testet products and companies. I've read several tests here where Hik products have done well on the technical parts, such as image quality, low light performance and "simpler" edge analytics. I'm also glad they focus on potential issues, and I hope they will continue to do so regardless of brand.

Agree: 2
Disagree
Informative: 1
Unhelpful
Funny

I think they could care less about winning IPVM over. I'm not sure why you even report that they don't respond to your inquiries, because everyone be like "Duh". The sky is also blue, but no need to report on that.

Hikvision is now speaking with us.

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

"Hikvision is now speaking with us"

until your next tantrum:)

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful: 1
Funny: 1

I promise you this. If you don't get an award from Hikvision at ISC West, I am going to throw a tantrum! :)

Your loyalty to Hikvision is impressive!

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

Let me when you ready to perform (tantrum)

My Audio/video crew is on standby:)

 

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny

Newbie Mistake :)

Agree
Disagree
Informative
Unhelpful
Funny