Member Discussion

Identification At 4KM For National Security

I have an urgent enquiry for border secutiry force, asking for identification of human beings at about 4km. Taking ppm in to play is there any CCTV camera that will do the trick. What about Avigilon professional cameras?

When you say 'identification of human beings', what type of image detail do you desire? 1, 2, 3, 4:

To give you a rough sense of what you are looking at / for. At 4000m, with a 1080p camera, and a huge 1000mm lens, best case scenario you will get this:

I am pretty sure it will be worse than this because of lensing / atmospheric issues at such super long ranges plus really long lenses tend to have high f stops and/or are fantastically expensive.

For more color, take a look at: View A Face 3000 Meters Away.

In general, you should be looking at long range military focused products. For example, Vumii.

You probably have to prove it's human being crosing the border, and get a Johnson rules footprint not to identify them. As John says it's a differnent story especially in darkness

What soldier use in Afghanistan, to identify Allies or ennemies and if your carry weapons (and sometimes shoot friends, oups..) are thermal cooled systems with very long focal. See on Flir side (35 to 60 K$ per camera)

Not sure you will be able to distinguish Mexicaners from US citizen if they don't wear sombreros..:-)


I heard back from Michael Mojaver of Apex Corporation, who told me that Apex has a customer that OEMs some technology from Apex, and produces cameras and surveillance platforms designed for border surveillance applications as well as other long range applications.

VIT Security Group is the company and Longview 2 is the product.

Ray, I think the Longview 2 might have potential here, in that it is, at least, a long enough lens to target down that far away.

That said, I continue to believe that surveillance at 4KM is either going to need its own light source built in (like Vumii) or non light (like thermal).

In particular VIT's claim here is questionable:

"The VIT 53 series of ultra-low-light (0.00003 lux) cameras with ‘night mode’ produce unbeatable evidential images in day and night conditions. Developed during the ‘Cold War’ they operate at a sensitivity of over 150 times greater than traditional cameras."

Besides the fact that lux ratings like that are marketing nonsense in general (0.00003 lux might as well be a black hole), they are clearly not factoring in the impact of their super long lenses, which is going to have a high f number, meaning an 80 / 90 / 99% reduction in light passed.