I Hope The Surveillance Industry Recognizes Their Current Business Model Is Not Sustainable

Thoughts from a "prosumer":

1) Market stability - What is best for the industry is stability and product availability. I purchased a number of Axis cameras for my own home a year ago assuming they were as stable as any company out there - hoping to avoid long-term, overpriced VMS licenses. I actually started with Logitech Alert cameras for my small application using the same logic. Now, I am 0 for 2 (hard to know Axis' future). Any time you are selling a product at a consumer level many times above its reasonable price, a group like Hikvision will drive the pricing down. That's a market economy for you, and is what made your big-screen TV, car, cell phone and personal computer possible and affordable. Hikvision is filling the gaps in the market (financially and otherwise), and driving down prices through efficient production processes. All the other companies are using the same factories, so production techniques are pretty standardized across the whole technology industry.

2) Ignoring consumer market - The other major industry problem is their lack of vision (no pun intended). The industry is too worried about forcing consumers to hire outside firms for installs/updates, that only a fraction of consumers interested in home surveillance will achieve their goal. If a local surveillance store would actually let me see cameras, talk to them about options, etc. - I may hire them or at least buy the cameras from them. Getting consumer flow through your store is a good thing since retail pricing is higher than wholesale. Surveillance software is stuck in the 1990s, and an intelligent voice would be valuable. But that is not possible since I do not want to pay an installer to hook a CAT5 cable into my camera. Best Buy is not selling sufficient technology, so I have to order online and trust this site. Thanks IPVM! There will always be mid-to-large applications that need professional installs. Industry has to stop ignoring their largest potential purchaser - the consumer. And stop calling me an "end-user". Can you imagine if your phone company talked to you like that?

3) Volume - The industry needs to move from a low-volume/high-price-per-unit model, to a high-volume/reasonable-price model with retail sales operations. Consumers are the solution! With significant upgrades in technology happening every few months, people won't spend $1000 on a camera in the future. Every company depending on overly high-priced cameras will collapse. The past year is just the beginning. In 1985, IBM was the #1 company selling larger corporate installs and using archaic software. Now Apple is #1 selling great hardware/software directly to consumers. I hope the surveillance industry recognizes their current business model is not sustainable.

NOTICE: This was moved from an existing discussion: Is It Time For Me To Start Selling Hikvision?


"Prosumer"

Thanks, great comment. I moved it to its own thread so people could see and consider it.

A couple of thoughts:

"The industry is too worried about forcing consumers to hire outside firms for installs/updates"

Agreed, and it has made industry companies lose to tech startups like Dropcam and Ring. Many of the incumbent manufacturers could easily build what Dropcam and Ring have done but their business models have blocked them from executing.

"Industry has to stop ignoring their largest potential purchaser - the consumer. And stop calling me an "end-user". Can you imagine if your phone company talked to you like that?"

I never thought about them. It's just the term that is used but I see your point. We'll consider changing our terminology going forward to just user.

Thanks again!

We'll consider changing our terminology going forward to just user.

Maybe just Owner?

How about just "the customer"? Industry attitudes would probably start to change pretty quickly if companies (from manufacturers to retailers to installers) simply considered anyone using their products and services to be THEIR CUSTOMER, instead of some term that adds a layer of isolation.

With regard to the "end-user" comment, I do not believe the end user (admittedly hard to get around this term when you are talking about a supply chain) takes the term negatively. The point was more that the home or small-business consumer market is undersupported, and should be approached differently than the company-distributor-installer-"end-user" pathway. HP, for example, has millions of resellers and customers, but their outward strategies are toward the final user of the product, and they have industry pathways through separate channels. Right now it is very hard for an end user to find their way through the Axis website, even if they know exactly what they want.

I can agree from a an educated end user point of view. It makes sense. If you will be buying and using the product. As a manufacturer that has made single sales in excess of a million dollars I would say the decision makers and the actual user rarely see each other and have separate interests toward a similar goal. Those won't be handled by Amazon or a retail store.

Very well put, thank you.

Hi John.

With regards to the "end user" comment, I was more criticizing Axis' new website - "I am an end customer and I am looking for an Axis reseller in the US".

I would love to see the industry respond to market trends much like Apple did years ago. Apple initially sold only direct or through professional installers. As the computers and software improved, they realized it was not hard to set up a personal computer, so they made their own stores. They realized it was good to get people physically seeing their new products, and talking to their professionals. People want to see and feel build quality, not simply look at pictures in magazines (then) or online (now). They also learned directly from consumers what they wanted, and built innovative products appropriately. They realized consumers were much more likely to upgrade their iGadget if they saw a physical display in their store. They eventually sold their basic products in big box stores just to get on the radar of the low-budget crowd, but the real "Apple Culture" lived in their own stores. They did this to outcompete the barebones, mass-produced copycats, and did it fabulously. As a result, Apple branded themselves as the premier brand and are now the #1 valued company in the world. Consumers are willing to pay for quality, but they don't assume any company only produces quality goods. They know most companies will eventually rebadge a garbage product just to fill a niche and provide a comprehensive product line. While I don't expect the major companies to open their own stores, there are opportunities to improve consumer access to larger surveillance/security wholesalers.

Take-home point to wholesalers: Let consumers visit your stores and buy products! We are much more likely to hire your installer customers if we develop relationships with industry professionals. Otherwise, consumers are content with the convenience of Amazon.com and figure out the rest on our own.

"With regards to the "end user" comment, I was more criticizing Axis' new website - "I am an end customer and I am looking for an Axis reseller in the US".

Ahh. Axis is so strange. You can buy Axis from 10,000 different websites but not Axis' own. I cannot fathom how that 'protects' resellers. The Avigilon approach sure since almost no one sells it online. But if you are going to let everyone sell it online, you might as well sell it yourself and make it easy for users.

UD1EU,

While I agree with gist of your assessments, this sentence is 100% incorrect (RE: Apple):

"They also learned directly from consumers what they wanted, and built innovative products appropriately."

From HBR.org:

Don’t Be a Slave To Focus Groups

When Jobs took his original Macintosh team on its first retreat, one member asked whether they should do some market research to see what customers wanted. “No,” Jobs replied, “because customers don’t know what they want until we’ve shown them.” He invoked Henry Ford’s line “If I’d asked customers what they wanted, they would have told me, ‘A faster horse!’”

Caring deeply about what customers want is much different from continually asking them what they want; it requires intuition and instinct about desires that have not yet formed. “Our task is to read things that are not yet on the page,” Jobs explained. Instead of relying on market research, he honed his version of empathy—an intimate intuition about the desires of his customers. He developed his appreciation for intuition—feelings that are based on accumulated experiential wisdom—while he was studying Buddhism in India as a college dropout. “The people in the Indian countryside don’t use their intellect like we do; they use their intuition instead,” he recalled. “Intuition is a very powerful thing—more powerful than intellect, in my opinion.”

Sometimes that meant that Jobs used a one-person focus group: himself. He made products that he and his friends wanted. For example, there were many portable music players around in 2000, but Jobs felt they were all lame, and as a music fanatic he wanted a simple device that would allow him to carry a thousand songs in his pocket. “We made the iPod for ourselves,” he said, “and when you’re doing something for yourself, or your best friend or family, you’re not going to cheese out.”

My original point was not about focus groups, but about industry listening to what the end user (here we go again) wants. Ultimately, the resellers, installers, etc. are just trying to sell what the person paying the bill is willing to buy - and that is different for hospitals, power plants, banks, and homes. So the ultimate bill payors (I like the sound of that) need a voice - preferably direct. Apple built things for themselves - but they, of course, were the end-users as well. So they listened to themselves. Same idea if Axis listened to their employees trying to use security cameras at home.

Part of what your quoting is contributing to Jobs' legend. I loved the man: bought an Apple 2+ when they came out followed by the 512k Mac. I have always been an Apple person because Jobs got it. However, other books confirm they did indeed use focus groups. While Jobs personally was an incredible visionary - revolutionizing personal computers, digital animation, music distribution - yada yada yada, I don't think the rest of the company depended on visionary techniques alone. Now that Jobs has passed, I am sure they use focus groups.

Apple built things for themselves - but they, of course, were the end-users as well. So they listened to themselves. Same idea if Axis listened to their employees trying to use security cameras at home.

This brings to mind a long-standing pet peeve of mine: equipment (mainly cameras) that seems to have been designed entirely by engineers, on paper, with no input from (at least in the case of cameras) installers. I've put up so many cameras with the thought, "WTF were they thinking when they did THAT? Haven't these guys ever actually INSTALLED one of these?"

Great example was the old Pelco IS-90 dome, with a sub-mini TS service port, tucked way down inside where even a child's fingers can't reach... and then they never included a tail to plug into it. First time I installed a bunch of these, I had to run down to Radio Shack for a pair of appropriate plugs and make my own cable to plug into my service monitor.

Compare this to the CNB domes we were using for the longest time, which were extremely well designed to give a wide variety of mounting options, with everything easily accessible for setting them up - you'd almost swear, when they were designing them, they had someone actually going through a full installation with every iteration, then going back and saying, "nope, that's not gonna work, do it this way instead."

The other day, I was helping a neighbor with an Infiniti SUV change his tire. It took me almost half an hour to get the stupid spare tire off. The nut is in a weird place and there isn't enough room really to turn the jack all the way around, so you have to give a half turn, remove the jack, give it another half turn, and so on.

Of course, the manufacturer doesn't care, because they know that there's no way in heck an Infiniti owner is going to attempt to change their own tire.

I have a fine German (over)engineered car. Battery dies. I go to jump it. Can't open hood because it has an electric release. I bet "anything you want" with a friend that there must be a manual override somewhere, I lose.

That's the third stupidest thing I've heard all day.

Yeah, I drive a Mobotix...

This can't be real.

So I don't want to give you the impression that they haven't planned for this. They explain in detail how if "the cell cannot open the latch" you go to the fuse panel and connect a DC source, they even give you a little connector thingy for it.

Related, the spare tire is apparently too big to fit in the hood, so it comes uninflated on the rim. But of course they provide an electric pump to inflate it on the side of the road, first.

I am not making this up. :)

You sure that's a German car? Because that sounds like the kind of thing a 70s-era British car company would do.

Mobotix reset button?

Edit: Undisclosed 3 beat me to it, with more class, and funnier!

Sounds counter to what they were preaching with Total Quality Management (TQM) back in the 80's and 90's.

I agree customer input is important. But just like mob mentatlity, 100% customer driven focus can quickly lead you into the weeds.

See, this is exactly who my customer is, and this is the kind of thing they keep telling me.

And stop calling me an "end-user". Can you imagine if your phone company talked to you like that?

It would seem as though you are thinking that the term "end-user" carries a negative connotation or is meant to and that is not the case. As the name implies it is simply the final user or consumer of the good that has been purchased or installed. Some may think it could simply be referred to as "owner" but in some cases (not yours specifically) that may not always be the case, example being, an employee of a company is the end user of a machine that was installed however they are not the owner the company is.

It would seem as though you are thinking that the term "end-user" carries a negative connotation or is meant to and that is not the case.

Keefe, I don't doubt that you use the term end-user as a simple functional descriptor, without any malice whatsoever. However the OP is by no means wrong in implying that their are negative connotations associated with the term. And he is not alone in this feeling.

The reason that some people are rubbed the wrong way by the phrase goes back to the days of data processing (DP), which is what we called it before it became (IS) and later, (IT).

You either wrote software or you used it. And those who wrote it always had to keep in mind the limited knowledge of the user. Interfaces had to be 'idiot proof' 'and dummied down'. So it's an expert vs. layman type of thing.

And it continues to this day, security professionals know more about security than end-users, in general. And that's only natural because (usually) end-users are only part-time security end-users. We're all part-time end users of different things, cars, stereos, medicine, whatever. And we don't mind, normally.

The problem comes when the end-user is more engaged and knowledgeable. Then they consider it a put-down to be classified with those who know little. Can you blame them?

tl;dr

How about 'Client'? :)

Out of curiousity, what happened to your Logitech Alert camera system?

Logitech Alert was a great premise for small applications: EDGE storage, HD, 2-way audio, built in IR, well built outdoor cameras with reasonable looking indoor cameras. Axis does not offer a reasonably priced camera with these qualities. They even put ethernet through your power outlets so you were relatively hard wired. They still support their products, but you cannot buy them anywhere. I am not sure why they don't make their cameras anymore. They are as nice as Axis cameras, I compared them side by side.

Well as a response to the above , it is about economics and sales , not stability

Axis,Arecont,Panasonic are in a different class than Acti,Hikvision, etc

Just like low end vms's are in a different class than ms,onssi,avigilon systems

You have to recognize the low,mid,high end relationships with the end users

You pay for a top notch product and thats what you get

I would not expect the bmw,mercedezs,or other high end modles to lower thier standards or product lines and so it is with the cctv industry

we have already cheapened the industry with so many cosco,walmart products and so the type of consumer product line is scaling down to a dumb user mentality where any 2nd grader can plug and play a system and make it work .

So it is with Professional vs end user systems

It is all about numbers or quality standards

I tell that certain level of industry customer s to just go get the cheapest product lines , and throw them in the garbage when they fail , replace with more junk

the relationship is the same.

I promote quality, professionalism, long lasting products with high end survivability and stability for a min. lifespan

The industry is at a place where anyone with a toolbag can install, set up, and replace any system.

No Brains required

"Axis,Arecont,Panasonic are in a different class than Acti,Hikvision, etc"

Chris, the year is 2015, not 2010. Those class line are being obliterated.

"I would not expect the bmw,mercedezs,or other high end modles to lower thier standards or product lines and so it is with the cctv industry"

Well, the 'high end' manufacturers in surveillance better do something fast or they are going to get muscled out.

Mercedes actually did release a lower cost model. The CLA. They made a big deal about it a couple years back with commercials talking about how you could get a Mercedes for under $30k now.

And The CLA is a piece of crap.

""Not only is the CLA the worst performing Mercedes in the survey," deputy auto editor Jon Linkov told Business Insider. "The CLA is also actually 140% worse than the average car."

This goes towards my point earlier about not assuming any one company implies quality. The surveillance industry is under intense pressure to drop camera prices >50%. I am sure we will see a lot of corners cut to meet these price points. Therefore, the concept of "Axis quality" > Hikvision is no longer relevant. Axis (and all premium brands) is going to build some low-end cameras, and Hikvision will make high end cameras.

Still Mercedes would have to release a Fiesta priced car to be comparable to Axis dropping to DaHika levels.

I don't think just "anybody with a toolbag" can properly install a surveillance/CCTV system. For basic, better than nothing type of use, maybe. If you have plenty of time and are willing to try and fail to learn the details, maybe. The fact is, someone who is financially at ease or has a certain level of affluence will NEVER want to mess with wiring and setting up a camera system (other than the Dropcam/Nestcam type). Those who do are far a few between and have Ebay and Amazon to provide them with products (not to mention systems in a box that can be found in many different stores now.

These are not our clients even for small to medium systems. Perhaps once Nest or Panasonic sells millions of dollars in products and service fees for their plug and play cameras will the market shift significantly. It's inevitable witht improvements in technology... We'll see. As always, embrace and adapt.

I agree with you 100%. I did hire a surveillance expert to hard wire my house. He did an amazing job, and I encourage all home owners who are interested in a true surveillance system to do the same. PoE is great, and allows me to power ths system separately if my home power goes down. I don't need to worry about some guy on the street picking up my feed with an antenna. However, now that I have the wiring, there is a lot I can do in the future to upgrade cameras, VMSs, etc. as needed.

One of my points previously was that the industry is missing opportunities to allow end-users to interact with industry professionals. My wiring expert advised me to talk to a local surveillance wholeseller he uses about all the cameras out there. Unfortunately, I cannot do that because I am not in the industry. Lost opportunity!! So now I am stuck buying my cameras online and sorting through VMS challenges, etc. If I had a chance to assess build quality, relative benefits, etc. by looking at an actual cameras, that would have beeen great. However, sadly that is impossible for prosumers like myself.

Mr. Rinella, when you say you cannot talk to him because you are not in the industry, what does that mean?

In the U.S. at least, without a Resale Certificate/Tax ID, distributors don't want anything to do with you.

Again, I have to point out, it's customers like this that I exist for. Without prosumers like this, I'd be out of business.

I agree 3, I just wanted to know what his particular experience was. A few of the things that he seems to be running up against legal matters (tax ID, resale cert, etc). That is not an industry "fault" per se. I agree with Ari though. He business model is set up for this very kind of customer. There is a seat at the table for everyone, they just have to find it.

I called the wholeseller because my installer could not answer my questions about specific cameras. The tech support person told me he can only work with installers themselves, not the general public. I am not sure why then cannot interact with me, but I can buy direct from online surveillance stores. Perhaps there are state laws involved. I live in Illinois.

Regarding terminalogy, "consumer" is normally used to refer to an individual using a product for private use. Whereas "end-user" or "final-user" are used for any user from individual to corporation or institution. I think the term end-user may have gotten some negative implication in our industry because manufacturers quite often don't want to support end-users directly and try to direct them back to the resellers. So they feel like second class buyers. Which is ironic since they are the ones actually making the buying decisions.

Great Post

I started my IT support business in 86, and in the late 90’s we began selling and supporting 2 vertical markets built on our IP expertise. VoIP phone systems and IP based Camera systems. In both markets, we had good and bad experiences with technology and vendors, and occasionally wrote a few checks to fix issues that we wouldn’t accept on behalf of our clients. We later exited the VoIP business, but continued in the surveillance business.

Almost 10 years later, and after selling and supporting a few different VMS / camera platforms, I felt we had become,” a jack of all trades and a master of none.” So when we were introduced to a cutting edge upstart in 2009, I decided we would go full steam ahead with this as our only platform.

In the beginning the company sold perpetual camera licenses for their proprietary cameras, with three feature sets; good, better, and best at approximately $100, $200, and $300 respectively per channel. The company offered their software preinstalled on a major brand computer system, as well as a single file installer that anyone could install on a Windows PC of their choice.

During the first few years, the company enjoyed a small segment monopoly, but in response to market pressures, they added support for a long list of 3rd party cameras, and began developing their own open platform cameras.

Throughout those early years and continues to today, regardless of our ongoing business relationship with a client, these customers have had access to 24 x 7 support direct from the vendor regardless of having bought a single camera channel or a hundred. A few years ago the company re-engineered the platform, and had you purchased your license(s) within the previous year, the upgrades were free, and for those previous to 2013, all licenses were upgraded for the price of a single channel.

The software has always been simple enough for my daughter to install and requires no knowledge of IP, databases, and its array of features for searching, indexing, marking are all contained within its video recording mechanisms. (Remote Installation support is available for anyone that calls)

The company continues to innovate with new cameras and adding new features to the platform that are available free from their website. The company and its manufacturing is based on North America, and recently began manufacturing its products in America, "Made in the USA."

In my opinion what you are asking for has been available for a very long time. As a business owner, I admit that we have overlooked the consumer / residential market, and perhaps it’s time to develop a business plan that leverages our expertise and a great company that has been Prosumer for many years.

Andrew, regarding this company, can users buy their cameras and VMS directly from that company or from common online sites?

Because that element is a significant part of undisclosed 1's concern.

Unfortunately No, and is it a significant point? I don't buy cars, telephones, TV's or the vast majority of the consumer goods I buy from the manufacturer. Best Buy, Amazon, Local Malls and stores are the face of most low cost consumer goods. Apple is about the only exception to the rule with an Apple store.

Undisclosed 1 started out 0 for 2 trying to go with what he/she believed met their needs, and we all learn from our mistakes. I'm sure at the time Logitech offered free 1-800 support, I wonder how that went.

My Son's New HP Laptop (TOP of the Line) suffered an OS failure, almost 6 hours later with a full reinstall, updates, activations, the hard drive was the root issue. Three days later, and more installations the pain was finally over.

With Absolute certainty, undisclosed 1 can contact any major vendor today and ask for a list of nearby dealers for any product and use his consumer power to go negotiate a price for whatever it is they would like to purchase, and cash is still king. :)

To answer Andrew's point:

I understand I can contact the major vendors and find resellers in my state. If I look on Axis' site, they say:

  • Find an Axis reseller/system integrator/installer if you are an end customer

I am sure these people would be happy to tell me about all the Axis lines, and will confirm Axis is better than any other system out there. What I want to do is compare products, and ask for a salesperson's experience regarding returns, repairs, customer satisfaction, etc. While I realize some industries force you into single brand scenarios (car or cell phone dealers, for example), most electronics stores do not. If I go to a high-end digital camera store, I can compare Nikon/Canon/Sony, etc., play with lens lines and accessories, discuss relevant issues in my decision (what equipment I have already, etc.), and make a decision. Same thing for my stereo, 4k film camera, big-screen TV, etc. Most electronics lines that require integration with other companies/components allow this comparison. The surveillance industry remains the exception.

What I want to do is compare products, and ask for a salesperson's experience regarding returns, repairs, customer satisfaction, etc.

Contact the exceptional Mr. Ari Erenthal.

This post makes me feel really good. We currently have 29 different IP cameras from 8 different manufatures connected to 5 different VMS platforms at our office. I also have about 65 other camera from various other manufactures on our bench which we can connect and test at anytime.

The company continues to innovate with new cameras and adding new features to the platform that are available free from their website. The company and its manufacturing is based on North America, and recently began manufacturing its products in America, "Made in the USA."

Sounds like Avigilon's got some competition!

A Surveillance botique - a place where one can visit, learn about all available options, perhaps spending hours gleaning the knowledge of well informed, non-biased, technically experienced on everything surveillance, non-comissioned sales associates, immediately followed by a PURCHASE, and nay a thought of taking the entitled information, leaving said botique, then going online to find the lowest price.

Gosh, every shopping mall in America wished it worked this way, and this whole Internet Shopping online thing is a fad.

With all due respect to Prosumer, (and this is just my opinion Sir) your comparison is not a fair one. If I read you correctly, and I apoligize if I don't, you are suggesting that the surveillance industry is woefully behind in the development of "box stores" or "methods" for consumers to shop that would compare to a Best Buy or Walmart; ways to allow the average consumer to directly compare products. First of all, the surveillance industry has always "lagged" the consumer industry in almost every way. For instance, the surveillance industry heavily depends upon the product innovation that is fueled by the consumer market. That does not make it right or wrong, I am just saying. But, let's use your examples, Axis and Apple.

According to the Axis annual report, 2014 total world wide revenues were 5.4 billion dollars. Apple's world wide revenues for the same period were 182 billion. Apple and Axis have multiple sales channels available (including Walmart, Costco and the like), but Apple has Apple stores and Axis does not. Axis has approximately 1900 employees world wide, Apple has 98,000. Apple is trying to deliver a product to every living breathing person on the face of the earth ( a pretty large market ). While I don't know the exact numbers, Axis has a significantly smaller market, even if you account for potential. I don't think, and I might be wrong, your contention accounts for economies of scale. 5.4 billion is a lot of money I grant you, but it is not Apple money. If it is your contention that Axis could morph into Apple if they would open themselves up in some other fashion, I would counter that they have likely done the math and they disagree. They are pretty smart over there. The type of place you are looking for largely already exist; one I can think of off the top of my head is B&H Photo and Video (Google); you and those like you are their customer. The security surveillance market is not as diverse as the consumer electronics market (yet) but, it is certainly not through changing and in the meantime, there is a place for you in our industry all ready.

Edit - I needed to take the dog for a walk. Another one I can think of is IPVM. Shameless plug but accurate.

Just for clarification, it should be noted Apple was a $5.4B company in 2001 when they made the decision to have their own stores. They had a very small percentage of the personal computer industry at the time (less prominent than Axis in their industry). The iPod was released that year, but Apple was still 5 years from meaningful growth. When the market got tough, they got creative.

I don't expect Axis to follow the Apple model, although I wish they would develop a consumer line. They have a nice VMS on which to build such a platform. As far as intelligence, the smartest thing they did was sell out when sales were crashing. I hope they take advantage of their Canon sales and distribution connections.

With regards to B&H Photo, they are the ultimate video store in the world. After Ritz and Wolf Camera collapsed, most prosumers were left without a vendor for high-end camera equipment. My goal, if any, is for local surveillance distributors to sell directly to the public when appropriate. They can serve as means for the public to interact with installers, and send feedback to manufacturers.

My goal, if any, is for local surveillance distributors to sell directly to the public when appropriate.

I'm not sure that's going to happen anytime soon, at least out in the open.

Nor does it happen in IT. Walk in off the street into Ingram Micro or Tech Data and try and buy a system.

The B&H model is as good as it gets. The problem is that there is only one of them. When there is enough sales volume, the best buy's of the world will have a security room I'm sure.

Sorry for the offense , but the cctv market has been trashed to the pt of anything goes.

Numbers are all that matters

and many highly unqualified installers,techs,specifiers are running the marketplace into the cheap sales market. I personnelly will be honest with customers when it comes to the marketplace.

The examples given only show that when a product ( co ) keeps their R&D,Company in check and on the cutting edge , they dont have to worry about the sales or gimmicks.

Quality will sell and allow sustainability over time. They wont have to cheapen their product line to increase sales.

Professional vs Trunkslammer grade installs

I have nothing but respect for companys who keep thier standard s high to maintain thier status.

Apple,Google,Axis, Arecont, Panasonic, just to name a few.

I always get great support from them.

I have been in this marketplace for about 30 + years and have watched the growing pains of the industry as great companys in past with great products have lost marketplace and credibility in the industry.

With the everchanging marketplace we need more than inflated company portfolios and hugh money injections to inflait company executives egos and make them feel like thier successfull.

Numbers dont lie and Company execs should not be paid based on fluff injections of money from investers .