I Do Not Appreciate The Inference That Axis Is Buying Spec, And I Have Demonstrated That By Canceling My Subscription

He's bashing Axis. Events like this have been happening for years. It would have been very simple to find vendors who spend even more than Axis on such things.

And speaking for myself, I do not appreciate the inference that Axis is buying spec, and I have demonstrated that by canceling my subscription. Rumor and innuendo are free to be had all over the internet. No one need pay for it. But it is absolutely your right to not be offended.

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: Axis Brags About "Whiskey Tasting" With Independent Consultants


Steven, I have made this its own discussion as its an important point that is worth discussing directly on its own.

(1) I am not inferring that Axis is buying spec. I am saying just that. These events are attempts to buy specs. Why do you think Axis is spending all this money on you?

(2) IPVM is the best, bar none, at providing in-depth testing of cameras and VMSes. For example, Panoramic Fisheye Camera Shootout - Avigilon, Axis, Dahua, Hanwha, Hikvision, Oncam And Vivotek and VMS Mobile App Shootout - Avigilon, Dahua, Exacq, Genetec, Hikvision, Milestone. You are free to ignore it and get your information at various manufacturer junkets.

(3) As I said before, I'd love to find evidence of these events but most manufacturers, unlike Axis, are well aware of what they are doing at these events and therefore try to hide it. Axis was foolish enough to brag about it on social media with pictures.

(4) The bashing Axis point is silly. Axis gets the most positive coverage on IPVM and if you don't believe that, ask a Dahua or Hikvision employee. And that's because Axis overall does a very good job on their products but that does not mean we cannot or will not criticize them on points we see problems with.

1. As I explained yesterday, if you think that Axis (or any other company) could take that same team of 15 employees and fly them around the country visiting a hundred consultants for 3 days each for less than what it costs to bring the consultants to them at one place and time, your math and reasoning skills might need some improvement. The salary costs alone would be more than what this event cost them. As to why they spend the money? Also easily explained. To train me on their product. You want to design from a spec sheet? Go ahead. I need to chat with the factory folks. Manufacturers know that the better I know the features and benefits of their gear, the more likely I'll know if it fits a given application or not. And I might be a bit more confident that it will do the job. Or know that it won't, as in a large design last year where I didn't use Axis, because another MFG had a slight edge in native functionality. And amazingly enough, this was right after I had attended a hosted event that Axis put on. Go figure, right? Had I not clearly understood the difference in performance, Axis might have gotten the project! So at least in this case, there bribery had kind of the opposite effect then what you suggest.

2. IPVM is the best bar none only in your not-so-modest opinion. To me you're something I read on the internet. And I'll put my testing procedures up against yours, any day you care to choose. I've been testing and evaluating equipment since I was a manufacturers rep for Bosch and a few other companies almost 20 years ago. I'm just not so arrogant as to think I'm the only one who can compare 2 pieces of gear. My boss had me subscribe as he thought you were a valuable source of info, I've since shown him that its nothing we don't have in-house.

3. And as I said before, don't refer to yourself as any type of industry expert if you can't find the plethora of other manufacturer events that take place. Ever heard of Pelco University? They did 3 days of lodging and meals, on them. Everybody knows about it. Except you, I guess. And oh, gosh, they included some dinners and entertainment! Obviously a bribe. Axis is actually kind of mild, they make you pay your own way to get there. There's a couple of others who will even buy your plane ticket. And they try to hide it? Really? Yeah, they send secret messages to the A&E community and then pay General Foods to put secret decoder rings in their cereal boxes. Or they openly send emails and post info on their website. I actually forget which.

4. It's a fine point, granted, but to say that you're "bashing" Axis, as I put it, was relevant to this single post, in which you have unfairly, for whatever reason, targeted Axis for what is a well known practice, engaged in by many different manufacturers across multiple industries. A bit different from if I had said "they bash Axis". But you make a very good point - you criticize them on points that YOU see a problem with. So basically the industry should conduct themselves according to rules of ethics and morals as promulgated by IPVM. What was it I said in #2 above about arrogance? Is there a common thread in your posts?

take that same team of 15 employees and fly them around the country visiting a hundred consultants

There is no need to send anywhere near 15 employees. Here is an excerpt of the assortment of marketing, account executives, business development, marketing, etc. that attended this event:

If you really want product information and training, there are only a handful of employees with that. And you can do it over the phone, email or webinar, much more efficiently (for both sides).

I've been testing and evaluating equipment since I was a manufacturers rep for Bosch and a few other companies almost 20 years ago. I'm just not so arrogant as to think I'm the only one who can compare 2 pieces of gear.

We don't 'compare 2 pieces of gear' and you know that because in the comment you responded to I gave examples of the large shootouts we do, e.g., For example, Panoramic Fisheye Camera Shootout - Avigilon, Axis, Dahua, Hanwha, Hikvision, Oncam And Vivotekand VMS Mobile App Shootout - Avigilon, Dahua, Exacq, Genetec, Hikvision, Milestone.

We have a half dozen people doing ongoing tests, an 8,000+ sqft facility for testing, hundreds of camera models, etc.

My boss had me subscribe as he thought you were a valuable source of info, I've since shown him that its nothing we don't have in-house.

Nothing? Ok, 700+ tests and nothing.

Speaking of which, how does your boss feel that you have launched a passionate public defense of junkets?

Ever heard of Pelco University? They did 3 days of lodging and meals, on them. Everybody knows about it. Except you, I guess.

The old Pelco University from years ago? For integrators? As for Pelco's A&E event, I am not aware of what specifically it is. What's your counterargument? That we are biased for Pelco and would not report on that. Our reporting on Pelco has been critical for years - e.g., Pelco - A Decade of Decline.

So basically the industry should conduct themselves according to rules of ethics and morals as promulgated by IPVM

They can say and do what they want. We can say and do what we want. That's the basis of a free and open society.

I attended the Pelco University as an A&E, invited by the local MR. And have you ever heard of the Pelco party at ISC? Once again, I was invited every year by my local MR, with everybody involved in the invite knowing I was an A&E. Dave Thomas once thanked me for what we as an industry had done to support him. So once again, your lack of how the industry works reveals itself. As far as further comment goes, I'm done. You will never accept that your initial post was flawed and offensive, and you are projecting personal opinions as ethical standards.

And have you ever heard of the Pelco party at ISC?

Years ago, sure, I heard of the Pelco party but Pelco has not 'partied' literally nor metaphorically in many years. In 2019, there is not much to say about Pelco ISC Parties outside of historical accounts.

everybody involved in the invite knowing I was an A&E

The problem is A&Es like you who get closer with and accept more gifts from manufacturers than the end users you should be serving.

John - whilst it's been a number of years since you were the pin-up for milestone (and you aren't 100% sure if you benefited), can you publish your personal tax return and the accounts of IPVM to prove, beyond doubt that you have not benefited rather than just asking your readership to accept your assurance? That's fair enough, isn't it? You are clearly happy to denigrate consultants together anyone who attends an event and is offered any more than a glass of water - so it's not unreasonable to judge you by the same standards?

In the past, you have quoted and drawn attention to company disclosures in published accounts, so I'm confident you will allow the same scrutiny of the IPVM Fiefdom Glasshouse?

Over to you....

If there are any specific concerns about specific issues or manufacturers (e.g., you asked about Milestone, I answered) feel free to ask and I'll respond.

While me releasing personal and company financial information would be an entertaining spectacle for you, it's overkill and I can address any concerns specifically, directly.

LOL, just ratchet that offensiveness level up a few more notches, right? If you can't be correct, just throw mud! But tell me, Mr. Master of Logic and Critical Thinking - If I go to all of the training offered to me, from all vendors - who exactly is it that gets my spec? Or is that I have a close working relationship with my vendors that bothers you so much now? Hmm. Maybe it's that you're ethically challenged. Is it the fact that you'd alter spec for a bribe that drives this? A little projection going on?

If I go to all of the training offered to me, from all vendors - who exactly is it that gets my spec? [emphasis added]

Steven, seriously, this is a core concern here. You do not get it from all vendors. It is physically impossible, there are dozens of manufacturers easily and one can only spend so much time at so many junkets with so many vendors.

The vendors whose junkets you do attend have an advantage over the vendors whose junkets you do not attend.

I like the IPVM reviews, installation guides, experience, opinions (biased or not) along with some good old fashion internet drama here and there.

Word of the Day: "Relax"

Brb, getting more popcorn.

You can't please everyone and if you do, you're probably not worth reading. I always thought you were Pro Axis and anti Hikvision. Probably with good reason. Keep up the good work.

I'm not going to say I'm the fence on this one - as I can appreciate all views and sentiments.

We all know John is reveling in the Shock Jock experience and just being "disruptive" to cause a reaction, but there are still some worthy points.

He is wide of the mark by general consensus on the whole notion that attendees lacked integrity, were suspectable to coercive behavior through alcohol/food etc, and denigrating the value of the event to this level is juvenile. But the wider issue of consultant and manufacturer engagement is a far deeper matter.

What we see this side of the pond, (UK), is "consultants" asking manufacturers to write the spec around their kit, which has gone on for years now - although with the quality and integrity of consultants dropping through the floor - it's just brazen now with part numbers and data sheet verbatim common practice (where there is no requirement to work with legacy installations or a client global solution preference).

I really don't see any criticism of manufacturers being justified, they are simply trying to get their kit out there. Unless you have a smoking gun of a "brown envelope", a beer and burrito simply don't cut it as a covert inducement.

The issue is the quality of consultants. Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of excellent ones out there - but let's be honest, there are also some dogs as well. When challenged in tenders regarding the OR, they just ignore the question as they are clueless (because it's not on datasheets or the manufacturer hasn't told them). Oddly enough, integrators are possibly the best and most independent source of verification of a good consultant. We know when it's a good spec or a crap spec and we know the quality of the consultant far better than the client, manufacturer or any certification and membership body. Ironic isn't it that consultants seek to provide the "independent" interface between client and integrator? As I say, there are some excellent consultants out there who put together an outstanding spec that any decent integrators can work to and the client receives a great result. There are also consultants who are lazy, inexperienced, lacking in integrity and generally useless. Picking these out as an Axis event may not be easy, but it's unfair to tar all consultants with the same brush.

Back to Johns own style of disruptive journalism....

Pretty much spot on in your analysis. I'll take it a step further - there ARE consultants who would change spec for a trip, or nice dinner. Just like in any industry, you'll find the unsavory ones if you look hard enough. But they're the exception, rather than the rule.

...”a beer and burrito simply don't cut it as a covert inducement” may be the best thing I’ve ever read on this forum. That said any person in the security industry worth their salt would have had at least 4 beers and snuck and extra burrito, this job is stressful.

I was raised by a father who has 300M in security sales to his name and ALWAYS reminded me that life isn’t fair and you can’t have what the other guy and/or his company has. The fact that Axis has an event like this neither surprises me, nor bothers me in the least. My favorite part of “a free and open society” is the fact that you can leverage opportunity the other guy doesn’t have (feature, price, marketing, sales team, breadth of product, etc).... that’s kinda the point right?

I often find myself questioning whether the subscription is worth the editorializing and shock-jock nonsense from John. I enjoy and appreciate a large majority of articles and reviews, and I even enjoy somewhat controversial topics being presented neutrally for discussion.

However, I have no time for "content" that tries to tell everyone how to think. I'd just go spend more time on Facebook if I wanted that.

I think in order for IPVM to retain credibility we simply need a filter to remove comments and editorial bias from John.

We don't see any of this from any of the IPVM "staffers" - so as JH is the only issue, we just need a simple "Ignore John" button!

We all know John uses the IPVM platform as an extension of his persona and has now finely developed the fiefdom. But increasingly, paying subscribers are annoyed, frustrated and vexated by his personal, moral crusade.

"But increasingly, paying subscribers are annoyed, frustrated and vexated by his personal, moral crusade."

This is a comment I've seen posted (in varying forms) many times each year, every year for over a decade.

And each time I read it, I know it to be a lie - based on subscriber #s alone over the last decade+....

also, vexated is not a word.

Agreed vexated is not a word...

How can the view be a lie when it is an articulation of what has been posted on this thread? People have expressed their vexation in no uncertain manner and I'd like to think the title of the thread goes some way to debunking your "lie" assertion.

sorry - bad wording on my part...

I didn't mean you were lying, I meant that your descriptor (and perception) "increasingly" was false - based on a decade of such things already having happened.

in sum: John has been vexating subscribers and non-subscribers alike for a long time now - it aint new. ; )

I'll drink to that (baijiu please).....; )

I hear what you are saying, but I don't think you can say that definitively. I think there are absolutely an increasing number of readers that are growing tired of this type of editorializing. I would assume that the question for them, as it is for me, is whether it's worth it.

The more of this type of garbage I have to read, the less I will think it is worth it.

And just for the record, I think I've been to a bar where a manufacturer was paying for the drinks a couple of times and I've had a few reasonably priced dinners from manufacturers on occasion, but I've never been on one of these JUNKETS so I'm not defending anything in this case. I'm just tired of the editorializing.

"I think there are absolutely an increasing number of readers that are growing tired of this type of editorializing. I would assume that the question for them, as it is for me, is whether it's worth it."

The part of your comment that I bolded is a fair point - as we each have to make individual judgements that dictate how we choose to spend our valuable time and money.

However, I think the first part of your comment that I did not bold is simply your perception based (imo) on not being a member of IPVM for as long as I have been.

As stated, this is just my opinion - and I am aware of the joke that describes something else that everyone also has as a way to diminish the value of such opinions... ; )

I think I know John pretty well, and I can tell you that - whatever you think of him personally - he believes every word he posts and doesn't pander for clicks - which seems to be the go-to position of those -- like yourself - who directly state that John has a bias while simultaneously minimizing the potential of your own biases being a factor in your own stated positions.

I think in order for IPVM to retain credibility we simply need a filter to remove comments and editorial bias from John. ....increasingly, paying subscribers are annoyed, frustrated and vexated by his personal, moral crusade.

but how much will they pay for it is the question...

I could get a few manufacturers to pay for my JohnBLOCK together with a free beer.

I am in,

Will gladly pay more than $20

Me too....or was that a different campaign where perps claimed what they did was years ago and all in the past?

I value John's style of investigative questioning. Much preferred over the traditional security info sources that come across as manufacture paid marketing.

Agreed. If I wanted to read press releases and paid advertising I would rummage through a consultant's trash bin/office/search bar. I miss the IPVM podcasts simply because they were nothing but editorializing. I think John and his team have an excellent track record of predicting where the market is going.

"However, I have no time for "content" that tries to tell everyone how to think. I'd just go spend more time on Facebook if I wanted that."

+1

So if the Axis event was a lock-in at an Embassy Suites in Oklahoma City, with box lunches and convention center style buffets, would everyone still attend?

Yes, you're describing 2 of them I attended in the last 90 days. Although I'm not sure what you mean by "lock-in". As in, I can't leave? Also, not in OKC.

Yes, you're describing 2 of them I attended in the last 90 days

Great, that underscores beer burros and whiskey tasting and 4-star resorts are unnecessary.

Even more economical, have it at Axis US HQ in Massachusetts...

As long as there were no Chinese elements to the lunch boxes.....

Once again, nothing but your opinion at work. And it underscores nothing other than the fact that I seek out the knowledge I need to do my job no matter where it is to be found.

I seek out the knowledge I need to do my job no matter where it is to be found.

That's evidently where we disagree. Where it is to be found is an issue to us. If it is found attached to a junket, we are not going.

On the basis you werent invited, I'm not sure if thats a problem.

Seriously John, you have gone way too far on this moral crusade. I'm not sure I know who you are speaking on behalf of, but your views do not refelect the general subscribers to IPVM and really only reflect your own viewpoint on the issue, which is fine except that in your position, you are representing IPVM, so it is IPVM that is put into the spotlight.

We know from previous faux pas's that you will not back down or accept at any level that your opinion is either wrong or at total odds with your subscribers. But in douing so you undermine the impartiality, credibility and integrity of IPVM - which again you will respond with your typical rhetoric to justify.

There are times when you need to know when to stop and accept you got it wrong - now is one of them. The debate is not balanced as we pay you personally to spout your moral crusade - which to honest John, sticks in our throats.

On the basis you werent invited, I'm not sure if thats a problem.

We have made it clear to manufacturers generally, over the years, we are not interested. And I think that is to the benefit of the industry and members of IPVM. Otherwise, we would very much be on such things all the time.

which to honest John, sticks in our throats

Genuine question - why do you care about these junkets? What's so important or valuable about them to so vocally defend them?

LOL. Your ego is unbelievable. Nobody is defending "junkets". Just letting you know that mass accusations of bribery and unethical behavior are generally going to be frowned upon by those so accused. Especially by somebody deriving a parasitical living from that same industry. Unless you think that the security industry would suffer greatly if you left.

We are very careful to not offer reviewers anything other than a product to review and access to support if they need it. As far as partners we do offer reward trips sometimes for performance. We don't confuse the two. We have flown out people from IHS to speak at events but just gave them a general idea about what we think they should cover in their presentation. We in no way told them what to say. We wanted them to talk about the industry and what our partners perhaps did not know on a global basis and trend they are seeing. In this case we pay for their flight out and lodging but we do not edit their content.

Impossible. If you ever gave anybody so much as a sandwich, you were attempting to alter spec. But hey, for a good pastrami and swiss, I'll talk to ya!

Impossible. If you ever gave anybody so much as a sandwich, you were attempting to alter spec. But hey, for a good pastrami and swiss, I'll talk to ya!

correct. Some people just say “there’s no free lunch”, mainly because it’s shorter.

John, your opinion that it was a junket is your own - it's not a statement of fact but your perception. So lets stick with the Axis 3 day A&E Event and drop the emotive, opinionated sensationalist sound bites.

A junket would be applicable if Axis had paid for someone to go on holiday for personal benefit only - clearly, no matter how you dress it, the event was not pitched or delivered as a personal benefit, but as an education, knowledge sharing and networking opportunity.

You can be very selective on your expression of the english language, sadly not always accurately.

Granted, independent "consultants" have no obligation to these standards. Does ASIS have similar ethical standards?

National Society of Professional Engineers Code of Ethics

ASIS has no ethical standards....

A talking shop for people who like the sound of their own voices and need to feel important - when they're not.

I guess I could have replied here instead of adding a comment to the bottom. It sounds like Steven Burman and some others here are completely unaware of codes of ethics like that. Not that he/they isn't/aren't acting properly in terms of not being influenced by nice food and drink gifts, but just that if you were familiar with formal ethics codes you would not be taking offense at a suggestion that it JDLR.

UD#15 has encapsulated my entire position - and in a much nicer fashion than I am personally capable of.

It's amazing that this thread continues. Steven, don't cancel your script, you will regret the insight that IPVM has to offer.

John, play nice. The chip on your shoulder has turned into an unsustainable boulder you will not be able to bear much longer and will permanently scar and adversely impact your ability to be a neutral , unbiased party in the eyes of your peers and paid subscribers.

We are all professionals with different levels of contributions. IPVM does not exist without the feedback from your paid subscribers. They (we) are your paycheck efforting that awesome talent pool in your employ. Yes, it sucks, but don't ever forget that.

Not a life coach, just an Integrator (Steven, notice the I in "Integrator" is upper case).

"John, play nice. The chip on your shoulder has turned into an unsustainable boulder you will not be able to bear much longer and will permanently scar and adversely impact your ability to be a neutral , unbiased party in the eyes of your peers and paid subscribers."

your soap-boxing is laughable - especially to any subscriber who has been here from the early days and seen probably 25 others over the years warn of IPVM's impending doom based on John's 'obvious to them you' biases).

You are not a spokesperson for subscribers - and your observations are your own opinion - which are equally as valid as others opinions... if they can be defended with logic and reason.

So far - and correct me if I am wrong - your defense of Axis is (and I quote) "everyone does it'.

Sorry if I fail to see how this position is a defense of anything at all.

"IPVM does not exist without the feedback from your paid subscribers. They (we) are your paycheck efforting that awesome talent pool in your employ. Yes, it sucks, but don't ever forget that."

The ominous and foreboding music I imagined in my head when I read this closing comment made me literally laugh out loud.

John,

A couple of things;

Why are the most recent response(s) to this conversation inter-mixed within the same vs the most recent post showing as the last response?

A far more sensitive issue, I noticed you did a LI profile lookup on me this evening.

Does this have anything to do with me trying to moderate peace between yourself and the community over the last 24 hours as it relates to the AXIS binger you were on?

Do you, as the purveyor, host and holy grail of IPVM, have the ability to ascertain the identity of those posting as Undisclosed? Of course you do. It's a Yes or No. You need to answer to the community.

"Do you, as the purveyor, host and holy grail of IPVM, have the ability to ascertain the identity of those posting as Undisclosed? Of course you do. It's a Yes or No. You need to answer to the community."

hey Columbo - the fact that IPVM employees know who undisclosed posters are is common knowledge - and has never been in question.

UD#7, obviously this was not the case. Had I known, do you think I would have asked?

UD#7, obviously this was not the case. Had I known, do you think I would have asked?

Are you really shocked that the people running a forum know who is posting on it even when you are anonymized? You fail at the internet.

To be clear and fair to #10, questions and concerns about how the site / IPVM operates are always welcome.

Of course they do, and they are so mad they just grow beards to cover up.

Edit: Well some have beards, others try really hard. So so hard.

Why are the most recent response(s) to this conversation inter-mixed within the same vs the most recent post showing as the last response?

I am not sure exactly what you mean here. In terms of the conversation being 'inter-mixed', I think what you are asking about is that we use Conversation threading. It's to help group replies to specific comments visually.

have the ability to ascertain the identity of those posting as Undisclosed?

Yes, that is why it is undisclosed, not anonymous. I was trying to understand who I was speaking with as you have the benefit of knowing who I am since I respond with my name. There's nothing more to it than that.

You need to answer to the community.

Well, that is why I participate in these discussions, even when criticized on IPVM. If you have specific questions that I did not answer, please let me know and I will respond.

John,

I appreciate your candor and the clarification.

Interesting thought UI #10, I got an email from John Honovich at my work email.

My work email is not registered with IPVM.

My Gmail is registered with IPVM.

I feel IPVM stalked me out thinking I would reply via a work email. Not gonna happen as it is not fair to post a personal opinion I PAY FOR that may not be the OPINION of my affiliates.

IPVM has the undisclosed feature, that is great. However I am starting to see the holes in IPVM's game.

My subscription is paid via my GMAIL account JOHN(and IPVM) so if you want to talk that is where I am listed for your team to reach out.

Don't try to stalk me lol, you really don't know who I am.

So much for IPVM privacy when they think they can use it to flex a tiny muscle.

F-LOL, anyhow I do like IPVM and find it fun to pass the time reading thru the discussions from the subscriber base and IPVM team.

This thread can just go on and on, I might have to adjust my posture on industry Junkets and get out there and hustle some of those free drinks.

You never know, if you don't play the lottery you will never win the lottery. However you can just buy 1 ticket a year...that is still playing.

Please bring on more Hono-logic and Industry troll-angry counter threads.

Peace N Chicken Grease, shave your beards, very outdated.

Here is a request, Let's add some flavor to the UD posters, and allow our Avatar to be displayed.

If you like bland and like to remain bland, that is ok...we already know what bland is.

Let the good times roll.

"you really don't know who I am"

that was the one line that I laughed out loud at....

I could not determine a point in any of the rest of your dissociative ramblings.

Let's add some flavor to the UD posters, and allow our Avatar to be displayed.

(Very) Early In April years ago, I remember a discussion ...

Reputational Representation For Anonymous Avatars With Dynamic Display

I got an email from John Honovich at my work email. My work email is not registered with IPVM. My Gmail is registered with IPVM.

You previously emailed us from your work address and I replied to you (in 2016, I've forwarded that to your personal email just now for context). When I entered your name in my email search, your work email was returned.

And I emailed you because multiple times per week you post rambling threads that say things like:

Peace N Chicken Grease, shave your beards, very outdated.

I am fine with people criticizing me or IPVM. I am not fine with cryptic statements and non-sequiturs that can confuse people and detract from more straightforward discussions.

John I know you have thick skin, your whole team does. I know they work hard to put together the reports, tests and guides. I am sure everyone has a personal response should someone critic their work, but there is always those darn trolls. I usually decide to bite when the non-technical non-sensical politics, biased or unbiased get interjected in the middle of a some wild conclusion.

IPVM has a forum to run, you guys do a good job and this is the internet. It is not like a dear Abbey column in the sunday paper. We are fully live, the ability to come in here and post undisclosed is a good feature of the forum, even if some other are personally offended by it. It is your forum and you must regulate and moderate at some point to keep the integrity and focus for the users on a global perspective. You learn as you go.

I like the reports, the guides and some of the political musings. I also like watch what pushes people's buttons when it comes to the industry. This has become the place to view and engage all those egos out there undisclosed or not.

.o0(maybe I should grow a beard)….

One would assume the "trolls" also have a thick skin for the attacks (often personal) they have to endure from the party faithful?

Whilst some may prefer a John monologue "up-voted" by an eager band of followers, that does not negate counter views or the very concept that John could actually be wrong (heaven forbid).

Discussions are often polarised and increasingly binary, and not by accident. It sometimes appears that John likes to throw a hand grenade in and then collect the clicks. The tone of the discussion is generally set by John in his articles. Throwing the occasional emotive word like "Bribe" (Axis), and phrases like "How is HID a 'trusted partner' if it sells a defective product". Regardless of the veracity of the statement, it is presented in such a way that responses will follow the same tone - and then it escalates when the party faithful pile in baying for Johns attention and affirmation to attack any dissenters. (sounds more like a Xi Jinping doesn't it?)

The point I am making is that the tone of the debates is set by John. I have no issue with his shock-jock, disruptive tactics (that's Johns preferred style), but I have every issue with people whining when he is challenged at the same level using equally emotive language. These whiners are the real trolls as their pontifical input counts for scat, other than to make them feel so good about themselves. Develop a spine - say what you mean and mean what you say, but don't sit on the sidelines crying because people are playing hard.

This is one thing I will say about John - he is an excellent sparring partner.

So in the same way as John soaks it all up, fire away with all the trollisms you can - I really don't care as I'm sure John doesn't either. Each comment and view is a page impression...and that adds value to IPVM for when John is looking to his well-deserved retirement pot.

Develop a spine - say what you mean and mean what you say, but don't sit on the sidelines crying because people are playing hard.

You’re lucky. I had just finished a brilliant and scathing attack on your post, based mostly on the fact of your recreant undisclosedness, but then realized I myself was also undisclosed in this discussion, which would have blunted my argument somewhat. But I’m sure you can imagine how devastating it would have been!

Cheers, my posts are just as bi-polar as yours! :D

Just been thinking about this and its a general question, but what is the relevance of disclosing yourself? I can see it may be interesting and satisfy curiosity, but surely little more than that? It's no secret who UD's are - John knows and IPVM know - so there are no really anonymous posts simply undisclosed to other posters. As I said before, I think it's important to differentiate your personal views from your employers. As a Director of a previous company, I was happy to post as named - as it was in effect, my company. But when it's someone else's, I post as undisclosed. So why would disclosure be important to you or anyone else? It's not a barbed question - just a willingness to understand. I have no interest in other UD's or who they work for. You have an opinion that you are sharing and that's fine with me, even if it isn't for you.

On exception is that I'm not so comfortable about manufacturer UD's. Why would a manufacturer post as UD - after all it would be representing itself, yes?

I did smile and laugh at your post though - in a nice way!

"and then it escalates when the party faithful pile in baying for Johns attention and affirmation to attack any dissenters."

don't kid yourself.

I regularly disagree with many of Johns positions.

I've responded to your comments in this thread specifically because I find your bombastic and argumentative style of writing/debate irritating.

"Well, that is why I participate in these discussions, even when criticized on IPVM. If you have specific questions that I did not answer, please let me know and I will respond."

Sorry, John, I must have missed you providing disclosure of your own personal tax affairs and that of IPVM to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you have not benefitted financially from inducements from manufacturers or lobbying entities that may have had an influence on the article you have published.

But feel free to correct me by providing the links to the information requested.

It's not unreasonable to expect that you really are entirely impartial in your equipment reviews and editorial posts, so to underline that I'm sure you'll have no issues in proving it. Not to do so, would appear, to some, as avoidance of disclosure for reasons that can only be speculated.

You asked that earlier and I answered. I am not releasing my 'personal tax affairs' or IPVM 'tax affairs'.

prove beyond reasonable doubt

Is your doubt reasonable? Give me a theory of where IPVM is getting "inducements"? We criticize powerful companies across the spectrum of the industry. Keep in mind, this whole debate started with me criticizing Axis, who many of you, until then, evidently thought IPVM was favoring (wrongly).

Ask something specific and I'll answer. Otherwise, you can tell people that IPVM is terrible because we won't release all our financial details, something that most reasonable people will understand.

So you can not demonstrate that neither yourself or IPVM have been financially influenced by either a manufacturer or a lobbyist - just for the record?

Happy to leave it there John as I'm sure you have your own reasons for not wishing public disclosure, which as I said - can only be speculated. Transparency and accountability are wonderful things don't you think?

For the record, there is no entertainment value at all. However, the veracity of your attacks on certain manufacturers, countries, and cultures would leave me wondering if you are actually reflecting the agenda of lobbying groups. It's sometimes hard to differentiate your editorial content from the media releases pushed out by lobbyist groups who we know are not averse to financial inducements or other favorable arrangements. We also know that hidden behind some lobbying groups are manufacturers who wish to promote a certain agenda whilst remaining at arm's length and for all intents and purposes invisible.

But as disclosure is not on the cards, we will never know for certain - which is unfortunate. Let's just hope that the refusal to disclose is not seen by some as having something to hide? I had previously asked for the IPVM figures only to demonstrate a direct correlation between your personal wealth and the increasing column inches given to Hikvision and China. In itself, nothing wrong with that - but it does go some way to explaining the ongoing tirade and your pre-occupation with a geopolitical debate that has little to do with the general content and value of IPVM. But again, I accept that this is the end of the road on that request, so we are left with a simple refusal to disclose, which I respect and is your prerogative.

So you can not demonstrate that neither yourself or IPVM have been financially influenced by either a manufacturer or a lobbyist - just for the record?

We demonstrate it every week by our reporting and criticism of various powerful players across the spectrum. Whether or not you want to accept it is your prerogative.

It's sometimes hard to differentiate your editorial content from the media releases pushed out by lobbyist groups who we know are not averse to financial inducements or other favorable arrangements.

We don't have any "financial inducements or other favorable arrangements", etc. from any 'lobbyist groups'. That's a fair question to ask and I am happy to answer that directly.

I had previously asked for the IPVM figures only to demonstrate a direct correlation between your personal wealth and the increasing column inches given to Hikvision and China.

IPVM revenue has grown every year since we started, before and after our criticism of Hikvision. However, it has not accelerated in the past few years if you are looking for that type of 'correlation'.

I will tell you what I say to Hikvision directly when we meet, I am not criticizing Hikvision for the money. If I wanted money, I'd get it from Hikvision, like all the other publications. I criticize Hikvision because they are deceitful about their control by an authoritarian government.

All that said, it's totally understandable that people would be concerned about financial interests and I am happy to directly answer specific questions, such as you just asked about 'lobbying groups'.

"so we are left with a simple refusal to disclose"

straw man arguments are so very weak. seriously. Your argument is rife with logic fallacies.

You ask John to 'disprove' he is being directly paid by industry manufacturers by revealing his 'personal tax affairs' to 'prove' your negative position... with ZERO evidence of any such thing ever occurring over more than a decade, beyond your own bombastic, tabloid-style conjecture.

Further, you argue against something that long-time subscribers already know to be true... that IPVM does not take money from manufacturers. period.

It is literally the very basis of John's value position.

"Transparency and accountability are wonderful things " said the Undisclosed Integrator lol

I would suggest asking your favorite manufacturer on a personal level to see if they have ever paid a fee to IPVM. This isn’t the college entrance system. Make sure they haven’t just taken a drink of something because they will probably spew forward with laughter.

This is not at all the level of professionalism I expected to encounter upon joining this site. You are not going to like this, but I have held off as long as I could. Do you know what arguing on the internet and competing in the Special Olympics have in common? Even if you win . . .

In Europe, when you go into one of their market stores and "consider" making a purchase but hesitate (mostly because your bags are already packed full), you will be offered a drink. I don't remember if it was vodka or not, but this happened several times. So... if Axis (or any other manufacturer / similar) buys you a drink so you can become best buddies with whomever bought you that drink... chances are you are going to give them a call. In many ways, they are buying you a drink in return for loyalty. Simple psychology. Easier to attract with honey then... can't remember how the saying goes but I'm sure you get what I'm trying to say.

Don't be insulted, I love going to those things and drinking/eating what they put out. Sometimes I even make a friend or two. It's called a "networking event" and the purpose of that is to connect and get your business or potentially a lead from them.

It's called a "networking event" and the purpose of that is to connect and get your business or potentially a lead from them.

And that's fine for integrators because integrators sell products.

In many ways, they are buying you a drink in return for loyalty.

And that is the problem with independent consultants who do not sell products and are expected to be loyal to the end user, not the seller.

To be clear, literally a drink is not an issue, most organizations tend to have exceptions for nominal value (e.g., paying for a lunch n learn), but a multi-day event at a resort is much more significant gift.

Everyone has free will. If you feel that the forum should be moderated, censored or controlled to reflect your own comfort level - that's fine. But as long as it remains an open and frank discussion forum you are free to agree, disagree and engage in any way you feel. The professional aspect in my case is in differentiating my own opinions from that that could be seen as me representing my company. So on this matter - the views are those of my own and that I feel strongly about, so I have to post as undisclosed. on other non-contentious or personal viewpoints, I'm happy to post as disclosed.

I'd rather argue than kotow, fall in line, stay silent or simply worship John in a manner that you may consider a professional.

As well as some excellent reviews and installation information, IPVM does at least provide an open forum (all credit to John and IPVM for that). As a paid-up subscriber I believe it's reasonable to engage in a debate from whatever angle I feel is appropriate without having to look over my shoulder for people who don't consider it professional. You too have free will - if you don't agree or don't like it, simply ignore and stay in the "professional" bubble.

You are right though - I don't like your denigration of the Paralympics. This probably speaks louder of your own prejudices than I would not consider professional. Why not finish the punch line and really set yourself apart?

FYI to all those taking issues with a suggestion of impropriety, I've worked at 3 large (multi thousands of employees and sites worldwide) "electronics" companies in the past 20 plus years, and they all have formal codes of ethics that if strictly followed, would not allow employees to be accepting anything more than a basic meal. In general, my thought has always been that I'll enjoy the nicer meals because I know it's not going to influence me, but at the same time it has occurred to me on a few occasions that someone could be unhappy to learn more than the basic meal was accepted. I'll assume that smaller companies, and/or the companies employing those who see no problems, do not have any codes of ethics remotely similar, or perhaps they have none at all.

Refusing to accept advertising is the same story, a la Consumer Reports and IPVM. In my mind, you could do honest reviews and still accept advertising. All I need to see is the company/site that does accept advertising bash some products from their advertisers where it looks like the bashing is justified. Others may not agree with this philosophy.

they all have formal codes of ethics that if strictly followed, would not allow employees to be accepting anything more than a basic meal.

Thanks for sharing that. I don't think integrators typically have such policies, ergo some of the responses. But I would expect most real consulting firms to have such standards.

All I need to see is the company/site that does accept advertising bash some products from their advertisers where it looks like the bashing is justified.

That's an interesting point. In practice, you rarely see that happen with niche publications, i.e. accept advertising and criticize advertisers. It's possible. A publication could use that as a defense but I think it would be crazy painful internally to do something like.

One thing that helps our credibility with manufacturers is that, whether they like us or not, they know we are not trying to get money from them. If we did advertising, that would become a mess. Hypothetically, the IPVM ad sales guy calls up right after we criticize a company and asks for $30,000 to do an ad campaign? Bad. I am sure some publications would be fine with that. Not me.

Just think of how much revenue you could be from Hik with a nice banner ad scrolling across the top of the page. Kidding of course, but you know they would shell out a fortune for it.

It’s friday and I am going to enjoy a nice undisclosed beer when I get home. Can we end this discussion on a high note?