How Does A Customer Know You Are Not Screwing Him?

JH
John Honovich
Aug 21, 2017
IPVM

A recent IPVM discussion focused on problems with customers being cheap and what to do about that (i.e., If The Customer Beats You Up On Price, Will You Do A Worse Job?).

An excellent response in that discussion from an end user mentions the flip side:

As a large, global company, we are often viewed by vendors as "deep pockets". Quotes include the full boat of extras on a "Rolls Royce" system and it is then incumbent upon me to start weeding through each line to strike what's not needed.

For one example, we replaced the access system at one of our sites on the east coast. The initial quote included only a single grand total, which I rejected in favor of an itemized quote which revealed how inflated the quote was. There was an extra $40,000+ for recabling the facility (2 people for three weeks) when it wasn't necessary -- it was not a new system but a replacement. When questioned, they said they included it "in case they found something wrong any of the cable"....

Maybe the customer is being unfair but maybe the customer is just being cautious because they do not know which integrators are trying to screw them.

So what do you recommend?

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Michael Silva
Aug 21, 2017
Silva Consultants

Unless the end-user has technical expertise, this is one area where the services of a independent security consultant can really pay for themselves. In most cases it is not so much the integrator deliberately trying to "screw" the customer, but a difference in opinion as to what is needed or not needed on any given job.

Without a detailed design or spec, each integrator is left on his own to figure out what to include in a bid. Ironically, it is often that the more competent integrator is the one thought be be over-inflating his price because he includes things like lightning protection, UPS systems, cable management systems, etc. in his bid while the less qualified integrator does not.

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Undisclosed #1
Aug 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

  ...independent security consultant...

And how does a customer, not in the industry, determine if a consultant is truly independent?

Present company excepted of course, but consultants may have longer-term relationships with local integrators than the customers they serve.  And consultants, IMHO, don't come into the biz out of thin air; often they have had previous employment and arrangements with manufacturers and integrators alike, which could translate in a less than "independent" reality.

So how to you ensure that the added expense of the consultant will be offset in the long run?

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Michael Silva
Aug 22, 2017
Silva Consultants

You raise a good point. I agree that not all consultants that claim to be independent are. However, I believe that consultants who consistently favor certain manufacturers or integrators will soon be found out.

When considering a consultant, I always suggest that end-users contact not only previous clients, but also others in the industry, such as integrators and manufacturers representatives. If a consultant has a reputation of being less than independent, believe me, people will want to tell you about it.

Consultants who are members of IAPSC are held to a high standard with regards to independence. As as past Board member and current Executive Committee member, I can assure you that any claim that a consultant has ties to any equipment manufacturer or installer is rigourously investigated. A member who has any such ties will not be allowed to remain a member.

I have gone out of my way to maintain my independence during the more than 30 years I have been a consultant. Even so, I regularly get accused of bias by contractors who end up on the losing side of a bid. They can't accept the fact that they got beat by a competitor, so assume that the selection was made based on favoritism rather than merit.

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Undisclosed #1
Aug 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Consultants who are members of IAPSC are held to a high standard with regards to independence.

IAPSC sounds like a good place to start, though I'm not sure I've heard much about them.  Do they promote themselves?  Are they big enough that its a red flag if a prospective independent consultant isn't a member?

I have gone out of my way to maintain my independence during the more than 30 years I have been a consultant. Even so, I regularly get accused of bias by contractors who end up on the losing side of a bid. 

Naturally and admirably you're independent from any vendor influence.  But certainly you're biased by your experiences, no? Such and such vendor has proven their trustworthiness to you, and yet another vendor has time and time again dropped the ball.  So you might prefer the former to work with.

These types of "biases" are part of your value proposition, no?

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Michael Silva
Aug 22, 2017
Silva Consultants

IAPSC has been been around since 1984. I believe that it is fairly well-known in the US among most security professionals. We network with ASIS and ISC and sometimes have booths at and/or teach classes at both organizations. Membership of the group is under 200 members these days, so the group is fairly small. One of the things that limits membership is the organization's strict policy on independence. There are many who would like to join, but who also want to sell security products or provide guard or investigative services. Once they hear that they can no longer do this and become a member, they decide the organization is not for them.

I would say that membership in IAPSC is a good indicator that a consultant is independent, but that the opposite is not true: just because someone is not in IAPSC doesn't mean they are not independent. The application process takes time and there are costs involved to maintain membership. Some consultants that are qualified to join simply don't due to cost and other factors. I myself was first asked to join in the mid-80's, but didn't get around to becoming a member until 2007.

I use the word "biased" as it is defined in one dictionary: "unfairly prejudiced for or against someone or something". The key word here is "unfairly". You are correct in that my past experiences with vendors is part of the value that I bring to projects, but I try and just present the facts about past performance and let them speak for themselves. 

I also try to keep an open mind: manufacturers and integrators who were once great sometimes take a turn for the worse, and sometimes, companies who were once disasters clean up their act and become top performers.

JH
John Honovich
Aug 22, 2017
IPVM

I believe that it is fairly well-known in the US among most security professionals.

'Fairly well-known' is imprecise but I bet, even among ASIS members (limiting the reference frame for people who pay for security conferences, etc.), IAPSC has less than 20% awareness.

And an anecdote, I look for security information all the time. The only way I know about the IAPSC is because I know Michael and a few other members, not because you hear about them through other sources or from themselves.

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Michael Silva
Aug 22, 2017
Silva Consultants

I definitely agree that IAPSC is not as well known as we would like. Your 20% awareness of IAPSC by ASIS members is probably not too far off.

JH
John Honovich
Aug 22, 2017
IPVM

Outside of hiring a security consultant, which has its own risks (as discussed above) and, given the extra cost, is something most do not do anyway, what else can be done?

As an integrator, what do you do? How much do references help to prove that not only is an integrator technically qualified but also going to charge fairly?

What else?

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Dan Nero
Aug 22, 2017

To me it's attitude, competency, attention to detail, and meeting the needs of the customer and your organization on every project.  I deal with it every day.   There are customers who oversimplify and coworkers who are trying to cover cost for every possible scenario down the line.  There are things you do in the pre-sales side to mitigate risks, communicate transparently to both customer & coworkers, and set expectations.  But as the integrator you are required to know your craft.  None of it works unless you know what you're doing--personally.  

The project above sounds like a retrofit/takeover.  They are the most challenging to deliver if it's not the integrator's system and the age of the system.  Cabling is a great cost savings opportunity if it works correctly.  So, that part of the project goes into the assumptions section of the scope.  If it doesn't work out then the customer knows it needs replaced as a change order per the scope.  You cover yourself thru the scope and a solid trusting relationship with the customer.  The other option is to replace it to start so the budget is set, but your budget is higher as a result.  

You can't know absolutely everything in advance, but proper surveys, information from the customer and their legacy vendor, the customer's position on scope and service they require, and a transparent approach to the relationship will mitigate a lot of risks.  When you are competing against another integrator price tends to be the most desirable attribute.  A deep dive by the customer as noted above will expose who's got the right attitude, competency, and ability to perform.  

Referrals and word of mouth praise is the Integrators reward. 

JB
Josh Bylsma
Aug 22, 2017
BLUEmark Technologies

I worked with a large controls/HVAC contractor that also provided security installation. At the time I was the manufacture, they where one of my partners. 

Their selling pitch was simple, "cost plus with an open book". They provided line-by-line spread sheet with the cost plus their markup on everything. If a project required more cable, as an example, it would be added as a change order with the same cost plus structure. 

I found that large corporations and government customers actually liked this model. Everything was an open book, no worry for extreme change-over costs or project overruns. If the project came under budget, the company would give the end-user a credit. 

A friend of mine just started doing this for home construction as well with great response. 

Interesting approach... thoughts? 

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