Subscriber Discussion

How Do You Know Your Camera Contains The Components Claimed On The Spec Sheet?

Avatar
Brian Karas
Aug 16, 2016
IPVM

I have heard some reports lately of lower-cost cameras swapping out key components like sensors or encoder chips for alternative/cheaper versions when supplies are tight.

Has anyone had this happen to them, or suspect it of happening? How do you know that the camera you are selling/installing today is meeting the same specs as the one you tested 12 months ago?

(1)
Avatar
Armando Perez
Aug 16, 2016
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

In short you dont.

We had one well known OEM suppliers cameras suddenly change in video quality. To the point we had to swap out 10 cameras on our own dime when the cameras simply didnt match up tot he sample images we used of other installations with the same camera. It was a 3MP ambarella Dahua Cam.

(1)
(1)
UD
Undisclosed Distributor #3
Aug 16, 2016

We do it by destroying a camera (tearing the chips & other components off) and verifying the chips on the boards. Sometimes they'll change just one thing and not tell you, like the DSP or the cable type, or the PoE power supply (sometimes on cable, sometimes in the housing). So we learned to check every new model that we received.

It is cumbersome to maintain at times, but we must do our due diligence as distributors & installers. Many importers/resellers advertise false specifications, possibly without knowing it, and it is unfair and fraudulent to allow the consumer to think they're receiving something that they're not.

But then again, can you verify the food in the can at your local grocer?

(1)
U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 16, 2016
IPVMU Certified

We do it by destroying a camera (tearing the chips & other components off) and verifying the chips on the boards.

Zachary, this seems quite unusual.

IMHO, most spec sheets provided by camera manufacturer's don't list chips or sourcing typically. You might see "SONY 1/3" CMOS" or something like that for the imager, but even then the exact part# is very rarely listed.

So one question is would be what are you verifying the chips against?

Do you get a component level list from the manufacturer for the cameras you purchase? Do they agree not to change anything without consultation/notification? Is this for mil spec equipment sold to the government?

Or do you tear the chips out of the first unit of every model and then tear them out of a new unit in 12 months and see if they have changed?

I have seen a lot of variance in models, not necessarily malicious, just a different set of magnetics on one board for a while, or different flash etc. One would expect that over years a lot of the parts might change, as new suppliers come on line, better parts become available etc...

Do you see that as well?

UD
Undisclosed Distributor #3
Aug 17, 2016

It may be unusual for the industry, but we've been burned by China in the past. Often you'll have to rip some components off to find the part number on the chip. If we don't have to destroy it we certainly won't.

Most companies don't advertise the sensors or DSPs, and it's a very EASY way to say that your camera is the same as our camera, only cheaper! Except its really just the same housing and not the same camera at all.

While OV was still Japanese we used that as a selling point (China bought them). We had found that most Americans don't come out and ask about the chipsets and sensors, but if you take the time to educate them then they start caring a little more. Everything is marketing I guess...

We have to specifically ask the manufacturers for the Sensor & DSP models, and we do it for every camera. We list the DSP & Sensor on every model that we can confirm. You'll see bullet points & specs that say "1.3MP Aptina AR0130 Sensor & Ambarella A5S DSP" or "4MP 1/3” Progressive Scan CMOS Omniview OV4689 " This allows the consumer a little more power when comparing quotes.

This starts to get very important when considering home automation, because the A5S DSP worked with Control 4 and all the others, but the S2LM did not. This causes problems when its the same "model" of camera, but a different DSP. We ran into this issue last year.

As for how often we check it; it depends, if we notice something is different or off then we definitely check it. If nothing has changed within 12 months we trust the manufacturer. However, the industry releases new products before your old container has even arrived... so we're rarely selling the same model for more than 12 months at a time.

We have seen minor variances that don't matter as well, maybe a capacitor has changed, or a resistor has moved, things like that don't exactly matter to the image being produced. But we believe your DSP & Sensor matter quite a bit. 4MP doesn't mean a better image, and it's a shame that the industry doesn't know this.

Ask a professional photographer if a 36MP camera is better than a 24MP camera... you can't answer that question based solely on mega pixels. Plenty of Ambarella/Sony 2MP cameras produce a better image than an OV/HiSilicon 4MP camera, but does the consumer really care? 4 is bigger than 2!

I honestly would like to see more transparency in this industry. Hopefully all of these discussions on IPVM can help with that goal.

(1)
(3)
is
ivan silaev
Feb 03, 2017

totally agree with above comments, and even more than only sensor and isp..many other smal;l things has a matter- leds type and country of origin(different brightnes and MTBF etc), lens resolution, F ratio, factory, distrotion, MTF..resoution, surge protection, grounding..ip level(more correct to say- solution to catch declaried IP level..) even glass and mechnical IR cut filter are points of difference and a way to change...replace and say- same cameras as yours. only tests, factory visits and endless control allows to feel more or less in result.. usually, even sony cmos is in spec or isp, but nothing about other components. but other compoinents can brings big difference in total cost, varifocal lens 2mp vs 3mp difference in China ~ 1.5-2$ but for total camera it brings(depends on model) ~ 3-15%(of course it`s apporaximaelly).

same issue about production way- many companies just use 3rd party companies solution and doing assembling, no own RnD, no aknowledge... i met company which is ~20-25 employeers and all - sales, production, stock, IQC/InQC, FQC.. all!! in 1-2 rooms, but by specs and web pages- same as company whoch has 300employeers, big building, 10 production lines.....- and of course they alos say- our camera is the same with yours

many small and not so small things has a matter

(1)
U
Undisclosed #2
Feb 04, 2017

We are all consumers. I put on a pair of Sennheiser HD 800 S and could not wait to swipe my card after exploding. I challenged myself to walk away, wondering exactly what this thread is about. Who dares challenges the datasheet specifications? What realm does thou exist? Staging shootouts yield valuable data however what about the component level? What exactly am I buying, re-selling in comparison to all like brand name specifications. 

I will depend on the ocean of knowledge IPVM contains to analyze.

U
Undisclosed #1
Feb 04, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I put on a pair of Sennheiser HD 800 S...

Case in point.  

Whatever the hell Sennheiser did to the HD 800 when they added the S turned what were decent studio cans into something Dr. Dre would put out.  Sure, the 'S' model sounds better, but mixers don't buy them to sound good, only to sound accurate.

New discussion

Ask questions and get answers to your physical security questions from IPVM team members and fellow subscribers.

Newest discussions