Subscriber Discussion

How Are Dahua And UNV Managing To Match / Keep Pace With Hikvision's Pricing Levels?

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Sep 20, 2016

Genuine Question

If the others - UNV & Dahua - are 'clean' ...how are they managing to match keep pace and match Hikvision's pricing levels?

Depending on the answer; 2nd question - are they sustainable long-term businesses if they don't have access to the same government funding?

NOTICE: This comment was moved from the Times Investigates Hikvision's Chinese Government Control report.

JH
John Honovich
Sep 20, 2016
IPVM

The short answer is, they are not.

Take Dahua USA. Burning money big time. Of course, their answer is that they are a 'startup' and that once the 'hockey stick' growth comes in... profit. But they have quite a road ahead of them to get there.

And UNV, do they have more than 1 or 2 employees in the US? They do not have any material operations so it is not comparable to what Hikvision is doing and Dahua is trying to replicate (and also keeps costs far lower but with less local sales, marketing, support, service, etc.).

Dahua makes a lot of money in China so they can burn money for a while in the US.

But the whole 'sell at super low prices, throw in heavy local sales, marketing and support' is not sustainable, without external support for anyone.

UD
Undisclosed Distributor #7
Sep 20, 2016

You cannot compare Dahua and UNV. Dahua is ALWAYS following Hikvision, everything they've done is to copy Hikvision and attempt to 1-up them. Watch where Hikvision goes and you will see where Dahua is going.

Uniview has taken a different approach and would like to position themselves as better than Dahua/Hik, but less expensive than Axis. They are actively policing Amazon/eBay sales to protect the installers and integrators. It is a time consuming struggle but we are, the distribution partners and UNV, actively policing this strategy. Of course this is all for new products, the 200 series NVR is fair game.

UNV has no USA operations, they're relying on their trusted distributors to penetrate the Western Market. In 5 years will this be the case? I don't know. Right now it is fantastic. They're owned by Bain Capital and the western mentality has obviously taken hold in the key UNV employees.

We sold Hikvision until they opened an office in the USA (and stole our customers), then we switched to Dahua (we were one of the first 3 to import Dahua). It was great converting our Hik customers to Dahua. Then Dahua followed Hikvision and opened up in America (and stole our customers), now we've switched to UNV. It's been pretty easy converting Dahua customers into UNV customers- better hard/software and actual market protection.

UNV has no interest in the "race to the bottom" price battles that Dahua and Hikvision engage in. They have no interest in black and grey market Shenzhen "channel strategy" (channel chaos). You will not find a Chinese trading company selling UNV into America for pennies.

In short, Dahua is following Hikvision and UNV is trying to blaze their own trail and not be associated with Hik or Dahua.

UNV comes from Huawei/3COM and are specialized in networking communications, which is why their network products are so great. When the security division (UNV) between these companies went independent they were purchased by Bain Capital.

UNV has won some very important project gigs from the Chinese government, over the state owned Hikvision. This is because the purchasing agent for the Chinese Government is on the hook, and no matter what the price/brand he will choose the best product to avoid losing his job. UNV installed over 1000 cameras to the APEC meeting while Dahua and Hik provided tens of cameras in an outdoor insensitive area (around a lake). These are facts not marketing.

I don't understand why ANY American wants to compete with their vendor (dahua and hik) and we refuse to do it. I also refuse to engage in the race to the bottom, even if the American consumer insists.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Sep 20, 2016

Won't it be neat when UNV opens that office in Florida like they're planning? Recruiters are already starting to call.

Who's next for you? Longse?

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JH
John Honovich
Sep 20, 2016
IPVM

Won't it be neat when UNV opens that office in Florida like they're planning?

UNV needs to have some physical presence in the USA. Just having an office is not a threat, it is how they operate.

The Hikvision / Dahua offices are more 'threat' since there are many of their re-labeler customers in the US already that they have to compete with.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Sep 20, 2016

That's what they said about Hik and Dahua.

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Rich Moore
Sep 28, 2016

Are you sure they plan on opening an office in Florida? They have a channel partner that is for Mexico (Unisol) who also has an office in Florida.

Obviously as a channel partner, we'd like to see more of a presence in the US for Uniview but I have heard nothing to indicate that is in their immediate plans

U
Undisclosed #2
Sep 20, 2016

When you say Hik and Dahua "stole your customers", what exactly do you constitute as 'stealing your customers'?

UD
Undisclosed Distributor #7
Sep 20, 2016

They sold direct to two of our largest customers (trading us for two customers that amounted to 24% of our total business, do the math).

They knew of these customers because we OEM'd their applications and units for them. Of course China will never sign any document that is not "enforceable" in China, so we never got actual legal assurance that they wouldn't steal our customers. But two of their executives, in their office in Hangzhou, to our faces, promised it would not happen.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Sep 20, 2016

Oh, nevermind... you're GenIV. So it's not like you're an integrator and your business was being stolen, you're white-labeling, openly advertising whose product you're selling, and you're surprised that your customers wouldn't rather buy these products directly than through a third-party. Say no more.

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UD
Undisclosed Distributor #7
Sep 20, 2016

Of course they would rather buy them directly from the source, but they still prefer to call our technical support phones!

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JH
John Honovich
Sep 20, 2016
IPVM

But 2, you are from Dahua.

And, yes, I agree that many customers would rather buy directly but lesson learned for others about re-labeling a manufacturer expanding into one's territory.

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U
Undisclosed #4
Sep 21, 2016

Disclosure - I work for Dahua.

Of course all customers would prefer to buy directly if the price is better. I have these conversations with customers on an almost daily basis and it drives me crazy.

Whether or not the customer is an OEM should not make a difference. OEMs generally pour their heart and soul into building their business and their brand whereas a company selling a branded product does not have to do nearly the same amount of hard work, the manufacturer does it for them.

My attitude is that if you are a customer of my customer, then I will not sell to you under any circumstances. I dont care if it is OEM or branded, the rules are the same.

If you dont like the fact that they buy it with no logo and then tell everyone its origin, then dont sell it to people without a Logo. Demand they put a Logo on it, make them contractually obliged to not state the origin of the product, sell it with a completely different case and put firmware on it that is actually different.

There is no reason at all to steal your customers, customers.

Here are some of the great reasons i hear for customers wanting to go direct. I think the last one will be a favourite for you.

  • We are not happy with your distributor. The distributor is not servicing us properly. They do not have a full time rep dedicated to us 24 hours per day just waiting for us to purchase a $150 camera.
  • The tech support from the distributor is not good enough. (Maybe thats because you expect the distributor to almost install the equipment for you, you have to learn what an IP address is if you want to install IP CCTV)
  • We have this massive $500,000 project that we want to buy direct because it is huge. No worries, i will $%# over my distributor who has invested significant resources into our product like trained tech support, inventory, marketing and sales staff. Actually give me the details of the project and maybe i will go direct to them and do the same to you that you want to do to the distributor who supported and trained you enough to allow you to win the project. That seems fair doesnt it?
  • We have been an integrator for the last 10 years however now we are going to become a distributor and be bigger than ADI within 1 year. You do not want to miss this chance!!!
  • I am a massive customer of a OEM customer of yours, now i want to buy your brand direct. Because the people i buy from are OEM and told me where the product comes from it means they are worthless scum who deserve to be $#%ed over.
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U
Undisclosed #5
Sep 21, 2016

Typical Dahua Arrogance.

They have no choice to openly advertise whose products they are white labeling. Simply because Dahua's sales channel is a joke. Dahua sells to any chinese re-seller who ships their stuff to Amazon and is content with making a dollar profit. This went on for years and probably still goes on (I gave up caring a while back so I havent checked). This flooded the market with Dahua products at ultra cheap prices. There was no policing of pricing by Dahua at all.

The result, everyone knew who Dahua was, including end users. They could tell just by the look of a housing if it was Dahua or not. So their was no reason for the white labelers to try to hide the manufacturers name any more.

Im not sure why anyone would buy Dahua USA equipment when they can easily get the same product from a Chinese reseller for a lot less.

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U
Undisclosed #6
Sep 21, 2016
IPVMU Certified
U
Undisclosed #5
Sep 21, 2016

Glad to see they wised up 5 years later after it has become an issue. Too little too late for me though. I wont hold my breath on their enforcement either.

U
Undisclosed #2
Sep 21, 2016

[Undisclosed 2 is a Dahua evangelist]

There are MORE than enough compelling reasons to buy products from Dahua USA, ESPECIALLY any dealer who sets five minutes aside to register with Dahua-- no strings attached, no fine print...

•A five-year warranty

•A one-year advanced replacement warranty

•Lead generation (IMO, the best reason due to the frequency of qualified leads Dahua produces)

•Instant rebates

•Project registration with considerable discounts

•Private in-house as well as web-based product training

•Marketing co-op

•Partner events

There are several other facets of Dahua USA that set it apart, and certainly greatly differentiates it from the Dahua OEM side or the Dahua of the past. Dahua USA now offers exclusive products unavailable to the white-labelers, which is a clear line in the sand by itself; folks would buy Dahua USA because Dahua USA is the only source for new, innovative Dahua tech... reason enough.

Then you have the people. The new face of Dahua USA is made up not only of respected industry veterans, but passionate folks from other walks of life who, whether it be their tech-savvy, their affinity for legendary customer service, or their knack for improving operations and processes, are hell-bent on galvanizing Dahua's reputation with best-in-class customer service to compliment their already best-in-class products.

Side note, I can buy UNV and Hikvision on Amazon all day long, not to mention a host of other brands as well, like DW, Avigilon, Samsung Hanwha/Techwin, Arecont, Speco, Honeywell, Everfocus, Flir... need I go on? Are there Dahua resellers on Amazon, sure. However, in order for these products to reside on Amazon, they must adhere to Dahua's Minimum Advertised Price 'MAP' policy, lest they be removed.

</evangelism>

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U
Undisclosed #6
Sep 21, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Dahua USA now offers exclusive products unavailable to the white-labelers, which is a clear line in the sand by itself;

Please provide the link to the list of Dahua products not available thru white lablers, but in-stock and available today for authorized dealers.

Or at least some of the part numbers.

U
Undisclosed #5
Sep 21, 2016

Glad to see some American enthusiasm finally from a Dahua employee. Sounds like they are really making a go at it, I wish you the best. As for us, we could bear all the sales channel nonsense that was going on but what put the nail in the coffin for us was the quality control issues over past 1.5 years. Too many RMA's, we were always warranted with no issues, but the number of RMA's was embaressing. Hoping they got a handle on this. We had great success with Dahua for years but it was time for us to move on.

BTW, as enthusiastic as you guys are, its not cool to diss one of your largest former american customers Gen4, whether they were OEM or not. Thats just amateurish and not professional.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Sep 21, 2016

BTW, as enthusiastic as you guys are, its not cool to diss one of your largest former american customers Gen4, whether they were OEM or not.

That whole thing isn't nearly as black and white as it's made to appear, the root of which is hardly appropriate for this forum. Moreover, while I am sorry this was taken as a diss, the fact of the matter is UNV is not without "sin", whether it be their ties to Huawei, or their impending HQ opening in the US.

U
Undisclosed #5
Sep 21, 2016

Fair enough, but your the one that made it public with your comments.

But it goes to show how Dahua still is....... arrogant. Appears the trickle down theory has moved all the way over to the american employees as well.

U
Undisclosed #2
Sep 21, 2016

I believe when it comes to IPVM, defense is confused with arrogance.

U
Undisclosed #5
Sep 21, 2016

my point is confirmed

U
Undisclosed #6
Sep 21, 2016
IPVMU Certified

If you have a second, how about typing in those exclusive part numbers, you know the 'clear line in the sand' and the 'reason enough'?

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Sep 21, 2016

This one I picked at random seems to be on sale direct from Dahua themselves no?

U
Undisclosed #2
Sep 21, 2016

Dahua doesn't sell anything directly on Amazon- this is a reseller.

U
Undisclosed #6
Sep 21, 2016
IPVMU Certified

No, made by Dahua, sold by others.

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U
Undisclosed #5
Sep 21, 2016

As far as UNV goes, I wouldnt exactly say that they dont follow Hikvision. Get 2 monitors side by side, hook a Hikvision NVR up to one monitor and then hook a UNV up to another. Its an utter and complete rip-off of Hikvisions GUI.

Thats not to say that UNV doesnt have distinguishing characteristics, but if they truely want to make an impact, I think they have to be majorly better in all aspects, including the GUI, otherwise, people are just bored of the same ol same ol.

UE
Undisclosed End User #3
Sep 21, 2016

The unicorn revealed, fluent in idiom and simile!

U
Undisclosed #4
Sep 21, 2016

Dahua does not have a problem with cash, not as much can be said for UNV. Economies of scale have kicked in for Dahua and Hik which results in a lower manufacturing cost which allows products to be sold for less but still at good margins. UNV does not have the same benefits. They will always be third in line with raw material suppliers, will pay more because quantities are smaller, will miss out on chips and sensors when there are shortages, and will simply have to take what they are given from a technology perspective. Hik for one can influence chip manufacturers at the design stage.

I think Dahua and Hik will still lead the market but UNV will not be able to follow them from a price or product range perspective.

In regards to all the comments about UNV being high quality with a good heritage that is just sales and marketing speak. Is there any substance behind it?

  • Do they use better components than Dahua or Hik?
  • Do they have better engineers than Dahua or Hik?
  • Do they have better support than Dahua or Hik?
  • Which products in particular make them better than Dahua or Hik?
  • Owned by Bain, how can this possibly be a good thing? You are owned by a private equity firm who wants to run you lean, put as little money as possible into you, then sell you for a profit. Its been about 5 years, about the right time for an exit by Bain i would think.
  • American owned but are you American run? Any non-chinese employees in there and if there are how many?
  • What is the true heritage of UNV? Born from a JV between Huawei and 3 Com. Isn't huawai the company that has had more negative attention from the government than Hikvision? Any senior management still there from the Huawei days who might have allegiance to huawei or other more undesirable people who are looking to steal data then onsell it to? Any government plants in there from before the acquisition by Bain?

my point is that UNV story with their nice sounding western name, nice story about american ownership and claims of higher quality may not actually be as true as they want you to believe.

These is more questions than fact so i am more than happy to be proven wrong.

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UD
Undisclosed Distributor #7
Sep 21, 2016

I'll address some of your concerns that I know first hand about, and I'll certainly stay out of the gossip and rumor sect that some of this thread has ventured into.

1) They use some of the same components as Dahua and Hik, but they don't use some of the same cheaper chips that caused the whole V1/V2/S2 RMA/quality fiasco of the previous year. They're certainly not trying to purchase Grain Media and become a chip manufacturer. They trust in HiSilicon's micro processors. Currently trusting in OV sensors, which used to be Japanese but was purchased by a Chinese company recently.

2) UNV, at least last year, was the "Official Strategy Partner for HiSilicon in CCTV", many of the UNV engineers used to work at HiSilicon (I personally met a few of them in Hangzhou). UNV has no problem with acquiring chipsets. I don't want to say they have better engineers than Dahua or Hik, but they have less engineers on staff doing just as much work. They hold over 600+ patents and a large percent of them are "inventions" in new technology, like hydrophobic glass or visible spectrum blocking glass that enhances IR. You decide.

3) We've never had better support from a manufacturer than we've had with UNV. However, in America as an installer/integrator you should be getting support from your distributor. UNV will help us if we ever need it, but we haven't needed it yet.

4) It is up to someone else to compare products side by side, I'm not doing it here.

5) Bain capital has $76 Billion under their management. While all of that isn't available to UNV, some of it is, as well as western financial advisors. Whatever one may feel about venture capitalists, for the time being they have the weight of Bain Capital behind them, being an American company that means that UNV will follow more of the American values/business strategies.

6) Not American operated, just American owned with American consulting. They've adopted many of the same Quality Control standards that IBM uses/teaches (ISO9000), and they're CMMI5 which is the highest level of any CCTV Manufacturer. Last year anyway, not sure if Dahua and Hik have managed to get up to level 5 yet, last I checked they were CMMI3. I've not met an American or western employee of UNV, I do believe only the ownership is American.

7) The Huawei heritage can be a concern for many, I like to look at it this way; they left Huawei and went independent. They learned superior communications engineering from Huawei and 3COM, and took what they learned and made a dedicated CCTV company out of it. I believe it's been 5+ years since they left the joint venture, plenty of time for a culture change.

I'm only addressing your questions, I am absolutely not trying to use IPVM as a platform to sell or market products. I would never disclose my company on these forums, and in fact I didn't, Dahua did. I like to let facts do the work. I prefer to talk on IPVM about the macro picture of our industry rather than comparing individual products to each other. I really don't want to be miscontstrued on here, so please don't take me the wrong way.

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Rich Moore
Sep 28, 2016

4) It is up to someone else to compare products side by side, I'm not doing it here.

IPVM has done quite a few shootouts with Uniview products but as John has said himself, the gap between Hikvision/Dahua and Uniview is vast. If Uniview can increase their sales through their channel partners (DH Vision, Super Circuits, GenIV), have a local presence in the US, then maybe, they'll be in a better position to be included in more shootouts.

JH
John Honovich
Sep 24, 2016
IPVM

Economies of scale have kicked in for Dahua and Hik... UNV does not have the same benefits.

4, UNV does hundreds of millions in revenue. Are you implying that you have to do a billion dollars in revenue for 'economies of scale' to kick in?

I would argue that opposite. The economies of scale diminish the higher you go. There is just not that much more you can squeeze out of hard costs, regardless of how big you get.

And if Hikvision is 'influencing chip manufacturers at the design stage' what are the actual real world results of that? I do not see it.

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Abdelhamid Metwally
Sep 25, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Being working with Uniview for a couple of projects now in Middle East. Generally they are pretty competitive with Hikvision and Dahua in terms of price in this market and customers like the image quality.

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Rich Moore
Sep 28, 2016

Absolutely Abdelhamid, the quality is there but the pricing will have difficulty competing with Hikvision and Dahua if they really wanted to force the market. They have the capital to lower the pricing drastically. Even Bain Capital can't compete with $6 billion. Not many countries could.

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