Subscriber Discussion

Horizontal Cabling For Video Surveillance Cameras - In Div. 27 Or Div. 28?

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Richard Lavin
Mar 30, 2017
Salas O'Brien • IPVMU Certified

Question to Security Integrators and Consultants:

For Integrators, on new greenfield construction projects, where do you typically see the horizontal cabling for video surveillance cameras being specified, in Division 27 (Communications / Data) or Division 28 (Electronic Safety & Security)?  Where do you think it should be specified (if different from where you typically see it)?

For Consultants, on new greenfield construction projects, where do you typically specify the horizontal cabling for video surveillance cameras, in Division 27 (Communications / Data) or Division 28 (Electronic Safety & Security)?

[IPVM note: poll added]

 

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Brian Rhodes
Mar 30, 2017
IPVMU Certified

For many projects, I think it comes down to whomever is running data cable/ doing the networking elsewhere on the project.

I've seen the structured cable installers be responsible, and/or the integrator.  (As an integrator, we used to fight pretty strongly to run the cable.)

I think the answer of which one is 'best' unfortunately varies according to whom the subcontractors bidding are.   Pick your poison:

1) a structured cable/ networks outfit that knows little to nothing about surveillance/security work

or

2) an integrator who knows little to nothing about networks/ structured cable systems

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Richard Lavin
Mar 31, 2017
Salas O'Brien • IPVMU Certified

In regard to your available flavor of poisons, as time goes by I'm seeing that choice less and less since it seems that the contractors winning the bids for security systems often also do structured cabling.  In my experience, the choice of poisons comes down to:

1.) A security system where some of the required cabling is provided by a separate (Div. 27) contractor that is not contractually bound to the security contractor and therefore possibly not responsive to them.

or

2.) A data cabling system where a portion of data cables (those to IP cameras, VOIP Intercom, etc.) are installed by the security contractor and therefore possibly not certified.

JE
Jim Elder
Mar 30, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I specify the cable used for security systems in Div 28 as it gives the integrator more control over his project. The integrator could  , and often does, sub to the Div 27 subcontractor on large jobs.  Either way, the "pulling party" is checked out. I also reference Div 27 and make it a part of the Integrator's responsibility with regard to security cables (types, standards, testing methods, etc)

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Michael Silva
Mar 30, 2017
Silva Consultants

As a consultant, I always like to hold a single contractor completely accountable for the performance of any given system. So generally, I specify that cabling for security/surveillance systems be provided under Division 28. 

However, some project owners are enthralled by the concept (and supposed "cost savings") of having a single contractor run all cable, so often ask that their design team specify the project that way. This generally works OK when all cabling can be terminated at a junction box or outlet, but less satisfactorily when cabling must be terminated directly at a device (electric lock, door position switch, etc.).

Also, as I have said in previous posts, no matter which Division the work is specified under, it is ultimately up to the general contractor to decide who he uses to perform which aspects of the project. It is very common for both Divison 27 and Division 28 to be assigned to the Division 26 (Electrical) contractor, who may decide to have his workers do the cable installation for all systems.

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Richard Lavin
Mar 30, 2017
Salas O'Brien • IPVMU Certified

Hi Michael.  As always, thanks for your input.  For the reasons you and Jim Elder state, I also typically prefer to put the cabling for IP cameras in Div. 28.  My question to the two of you, (hopefully Jim will see this as well), is, do you do use a single spec section for all security cabling, or do you use separate sections for CCTV, Access Control and Intrusion Detection cabling.

I've always just used one spec section for all security cabling, including IP camera data cabling, but I encounter confusion from bidders often enough that I'm considering changing my methodology and breaking CCTV cabling out into it's own dedicated section to make it easier for a GC to give that to the Div. 27 guy if they so desire (or to make it easier for the Div. 28 contractor to sub it out to Div. 27 if they so desire).

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Michael Silva
Mar 30, 2017
Silva Consultants

Richard,

I typically include a section "28 00 10 - Basic Materials and Methods" where I specify general requirements for all common work elements, including cabling. I then specify system-specific cabling requirements (if any) within each of the various system sections (access control, video surveillance, intercom, etc.)

I don't usually include a separate section just for cabling unless fiber-optic cabling is involved. That being said, I think it would be perfectly fine if you did so if the appropriate cross-references were made in the documents. 

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JE
Jim Elder
Mar 30, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I would generally prefer Div 27. But I once had a client who had 400 locations spread all over the US. Each location site was small (10 doors 2-3 cameras) and so to ensure interest from local integrators (more bucks) I would tend to stick it in Div 28. I would not do that with a big job like Rob usually undertakes. Big jobs get in 27 but the integrator can still bid it if he has the quals. Just because the spec is in 27 does not disallow an integrator to bid the work if he wants. I have a Div 27 that usually involves patch panel to patch panel or patch panel to RJ45 . Where it gets tricky is the network switches. IT guys think differently than security guys.  

I disagree with Brian a little.  I am finding more and more integrators with networking skill sets; then again I don't usually get involved unless it's a larger system.... not something that a mom and pop operation (don't get me wrong, some of the best integrators I have known are mom and pops) would typically do (they also know their limitations).   

If you want the integrator to get both jobs, I would not have a problem saying just that in both specs (i.e " Include network and low voltage cable as indicated in applicable sections of Division 27). In this way, you can make the Details of 27 apply to 28.

Another way: "... Integrator to Inspect all cables and test results provided under Div 27 and furnish written acceptance of work to the Owner's Representative. Once all cables have been approved by the Integrator and become beneficially operational, the Integrator is responsible for the warranty service to the cables installed under Division 27 to include xy and z."  This method allows the integrator to add bucks to the job and the cable guy to take away bucks from his while still keeping the single point of contact as the integrator. I do the same thing with door hardware if I cannot get in in Div 28. 

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Rob Hammond
Mar 30, 2017
IPVMU Certified

In our shop, we have both security and telecom consultants.  We prefer that data cabling be under Div. 27, as these contractors are more familiar with TIA standards and have the proper test equipment and experise to certify the cabling, which is a requirement of our specs.  All none-data cabling is specified under Div. 28.  Which contractor gets the work is out of our control, as Michael states, but whoever gets the work must comply with our stringent Div. 27 specs.

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Richard Lavin
Mar 30, 2017
Salas O'Brien • IPVMU Certified

Thanks for your input Rob. When you put the data cabling for video surveillance under Div. 27, do you give it it's own dedicated section, or do you bake it into the general Communications Horizontal Cabling spec section?

The company I work for also does both security and telecom (also acoustics and AV like yours).  I typically prefer to put all of the security cabling, including cabling for IP cameras, in Div. 28 for the reasons Jim and Michael state above. On the occasions when I do put it in Div. 27, it's always just written into the 27 15 00 spec section.

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Rob Hammond
Mar 31, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Hi Richard,

Our Div 28 specs refer to Div 27 for all structured cabling. From our perspective, structured cabling should be treated the same if it is a workstation or a camera.  The cabling needs to be certified and installed per BICSI and TIA standards.  I am not a fan of Direct Attach, where the camera end is terminated in a plug rather than a Jack (biscuit).  I like the flexibility of a biscuit and a patch cable, as Greg points out, and I am not convinced that in the cramped confines of a camera body which require tight cable bend radius, is the friendliest place for Horizontal cable.  Although the biscuit and patch cable is a little more expensive, I like connecting to the camera with the more flexible patch cable for ease of installation, and IMHO, a more trouble free connection back to the network.

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Greg Thornbury
Mar 30, 2017
Facility Solutions Group, Inc. • IPVMU Certified

We have a voice/data business here as well as security.  In every case possible, we have the Div 27 guys run the data cabling for the video surveillance.  The access control cabling is up for grabs, but usually gets handed off to the Div. 27 team as well, if it makes sense.

Our voice/data guys run, terminate, test and certify all the network drops as a normal part of their scope, so we really don't have issues with the video cabling.

Most of the time, our access control (if it's not edge POE devices) is terminating into the same IDF, so it's pretty straight-forward to have that composite cabling run by the same voice/data crew and left in the IDF for our security technicians to terminate.

Works well for us.

Greg

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Richard Lavin
Mar 30, 2017
Salas O'Brien • IPVMU Certified

Hi Greg.  Do the cable manufacturers certify direct connected cables like you typically have with IP cameras, or do you have to terminate on a wall panel or biscuit box?

I know that TIA-862-B, which addresses direct connections to equipment, was approved for publication about a year ago, but I honestly don't know if the cable manufacturers have started certifying directly connected horizontal cable runs.  Around the time TIA-862-B was published, I think that Berk-Tek was the only manufacturer that warrantied a direct attached run.

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Brian Rhodes
Mar 31, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Around the time TIA-862-B was published, I think that Berk-Tek was the only manufacturer that warrantied a direct attached run.

This is interesting, and we will ask other cable manufacturers about this for an upcoming post on their feedback.

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Greg Thornbury
Mar 30, 2017
Facility Solutions Group, Inc. • IPVMU Certified

Richard;

Thanks for the reply.  In 90%+ of the cases, our Category cabling for IP cameras is terminated to a patch panel in the IDF and a biscuit at the device.  That allows for the certification of a full segment.  Again, there's always exceptions, but that's the rule as most projects require a long term warranty on the structured cabling.  And that's part of my supporting reasoning for having our Division 27 guys do the data cabling work.

I know that there was a recent change to allow certification directly to a device as you mention, and I'll chat with one of our RCDD's to see which manufacturers are now supporting that, but it's not a standard that we've adopted, so I don't have a quick answer for you.  We will probably not adopt the standard anyway; the current standard serves us well and allows some flexibility (via the length of the camera patch cord) in final placement and field of view selection.

Hope that helps,

Thanks,

Greg

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Richard Lavin
Mar 30, 2017
Salas O'Brien • IPVMU Certified

I was going to post a comment showing that CSI (Construction Specifications Institute) has CCTV cabling under Div. 28.  Here is a snip from MasterFormat 2014 Section Numbers and Titles:

However, I just looked at MasterFormat 2016 and it looks like CSI has moved them into Div. 27.

So, if I were to follow the letter of the law according to CSI, I really should put all security cabling in Div. 27, at least for any project following MasterFormat 2016.  In reality, most architects don't even tell us if they are following a specific MasterFormat and I've rarely had them question our spec section numbers.

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MC
Marty Calhoun
Mar 30, 2017
IPVMU Certified

98% of the time I have seen all ESS systems (security, Access control & Video) logged on Division 28, Very few instances where Division 27 has been an issue.

Its just my Opinion but the  folks that are in that Industry seem to always come off as "know-it all" and look down on the Security industry. I can understand to a point with the Trunk-Slammer crowd installing those cheap wireless systems all over town, and only using a T-25 and some Moose stick-em blocks but the real Hard Line Commercial dealers practice as good, if not better cabling practices than some Data companies.

All you have to do is think about the old BICSI recommendation of "RJ-45 Jack and Patch cord" at each camera and you realize that the Data Cabler Community is not where ESS companies need to be....

 

 

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Brian Rhodes
Mar 30, 2017
IPVMU Certified

All you have to do is think about the old BICSI recommendation of "RJ-45 Jack and Patch cord" at each camera and you realize that the Data Cabler Community is not where ESS companies need to be....

For the sake of fairness/accuracy, since the 13th Ed of TDMM (via BICSI-005) was released, BICSI supports direct attachment of horizontal cable to security devices.

 

 
 
 
JK
Jim Krile
Mar 31, 2017
IPVMU Certified

For us, this is a mixed bag. Since most IP cameras are really data drops, and are cabled to the TR room rack patch panels, and are part of the overall data cabling solution, I believe this has to be in the DIV 27 spec and done by the Div 27 data cabling contractor. However, for other types of camera cabling (coax and low voltage power), I believe these should be done by the DIV 28 contractor. When you have fiber (say to an exterior pole mounted camera) then it could go either way. If you already have a fiber contractor in DIV 27 on the job, I believe they should install this cable. If there is no other fiber on this job, then it should be the DIV 28 contractor.

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Richard Lavin
Mar 31, 2017
Salas O'Brien • IPVMU Certified

Thanks to everyone who has voted so far.  There are only 20 votes, but at this point it's split exactly down the middle, 50/50.  I guess the only thing that is clear from the poll is that there is no clear consensus where IP camera cabling should be specified.

For me, my primary concern is not necessarily who does the work but rather who is contractually responsible for the work.  I think Div. 28 should be responsible for it but I think it's totally OK if they sub it back to the Div. 27 contractor.

Again, thank you to everyone who voted and commented.

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