Hikvision Employee Laughs At IPVM

JH
John Honovich
Sep 08, 2017
IPVM

Hikvision's entrance into access control is a laughing matter, or at least IPVM's coverage of it:

We asked the Hikvision employee what specifically was inaccurate, considering he claimed 80% was 'totally inaccurate' but we have yet to receive any response.

And Hikvision corporate, who is communicating with us, has not responded with any claims about inaccuracies in our report.

I encourage Hikvision and its employees to criticize us on the merits, with convincing detail. But like the "Hikvision Always Prevails" employee, they cannot, so they resort to rude remarks.

 

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UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Sep 08, 2017

John, Krasimir is a security systems expert and a 15 years professional. Glad to see you question these self-promoting wind bags.   

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Sep 09, 2017

I ask myself why such an extraordinary expert like Kasimir is working for Hikvision. Also his position does not sound like he's in high ranks of the organization. 

Why doesn't he run his own business instead? 

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Tony Lagan
Sep 09, 2017

You really ask why... because Hikvision is the largest manufacturer. They make some excellent products and are quite innovative and along with us at Dahua are growing faster than any other manufacturers. The quality of the people joining the Chinese manufacturers is increasing rapidly. I see you work for a manufacturer... getting tired of being being beaten by Hikvision I wonder.

Bit of a silly comment really.

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JH
John Honovich
Sep 09, 2017
IPVM

The quality of the people joining the Chinese manufacturers is increasing rapidly.

Tony, I can't speak for Australia where you are from, but I can quite confidently speak for North America. Here, both companies are having increasingly difficulties hiring quality people, despite regularly offering high above market average compensation (also discussed here). It is a factor of their increasingly poor reputation (and certainly some people love them but overall it's negative in North America, see Dahua favorability and Hikvision favorability results).

and along with us at Dahua are growing faster than any other manufacturers. 

I agree with you, certainly compared to any moderate size or larger manufacturer, their growth rates are higher. However, that is significantly a function of their willingness to spend a lot more on sales and marketing and absorb losses. Exhibit A: Dahua USA who surely is growing revenue, but from a very low base and with very high relative overhead.

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Tony Lagan
Sep 09, 2017

I can't comment for the USA John as I have not had a lot to do with that market but I have met many of my international colleages both from Dahua and in my time at Hikvision and there are some very well respected individuals from their markets working in different regions. I found the comment from UM2 a bit ignorant as he is implying that because someone works for Hikvision he cannot be an expert. Seems a little petty to me. Certainly Hikvision and Dahua in Australia have some very well respected and effective staff.

You repeatedly comment about Hikvision's overseas division making losses. Do you have figures/evidence to support this as I know in my time in Australia we were very profitable and made very healthy margins.

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JH
John Honovich
Sep 09, 2017
IPVM

I know in my time in Australia we were very profitable and made very healthy margins.

I believe what you are saying and, again, I cannot comment for Australia. One thing, generally, about Australia is that prices across the board for surveillance products are significantly higher than the US (this has come up repeatedly in discussions with Australian security professionals over the years). I suspect that factors into relative profits across countries.

making losses. Do you have figures/evidence to support this

The Dahua USA division is a clear case of losing money. They are claiming ~100 employees in the USA, which factoring in all the trade shows they do, multiple bases (CA and MA), etc. means $20+ million in expenses. From what we have seen, I'd be surprised if Dahua branded sales were much more than $20 million for 2017, i.e., even if the products could be made for free, they'd lose money. I would assume the goal / hope is hockey stick growth, but it's not easy with Hikvision already established and growing resistance to Hikvision and Dahua (cybersecurity, etc.). Tim, then Frank, now William, etc.

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U
Undisclosed #3
Sep 10, 2017
IPVMU Certified

From what we have seen, I'd be surprised if Dahua branded sales were much more than $20 million for 2017...

I'm not saying I know, but why do you think they are that low?  That's like 200,000 cameras.

At the very least they have been in ADI as branded for a year, racing to the bottom neck and neck with Hik.  

Anecdotally, I've run into two stores (without seeking), that carry branded Dahua, so I had the feeling that they were penetrating somewhat.

Again I don't know.

JH
John Honovich
Sep 10, 2017
IPVM

At the very least they have been in ADI as branded for a year, racing to the bottom neck and neck with Hik.

Negative. ADI's USA IP camera best seller list shows the picture clearly:

  • Hikvision has 16 of the top 25
  • W Box has 3 of the top 25 (still Hikvision)
  • Honeywell has 3 of top 25 (probably Dahua but not Dahua branded)
  • Axis has 2 of the top 25
  • Dahua has 0 of the top 25
  • Dahua branded highest ranking camera is in #49th place

Is Dahua trying? Sure. To say the least, they are still far far off.

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Undisclosed #3
Sep 10, 2017
IPVMU Certified

To be sure, when I said "racing to the bottom neck and neck with Hik", I meant only that they were undercutting each other, based upon some discussions here and flyers like:

I'll concede that apparently the promotion and pricing hasn't yielded a top seller yet, and maybe they are not keeping up with the Hik monthly markdown program.

btw, I am surprised to see ADI sells so much Geovision, considering how little you hear of them.

Edit: Although the advert seems the very picture of "neck and neck", I am noticing the "ON All Hikvision Products" and the ability to combine other discounts, which could be significant.

JH
John Honovich
Sep 10, 2017
IPVM

maybe they are not keeping up with the Hik monthly markdown program.

So far this year, Hikvision has had way more monthly across the board sales, around 3 to 1 more.

That's, of course, not the only reason for their sales advantage - they have been selling branded products in the USA for 3+ years now, which is a big edge, even if Dahua executed perfectly (and since wea are talking about Dahua...).

Good eye on Geovision, they have 5 cameras between 26 and 50. We're actually testing their intercom right now but we should look at testing their entry level offerings to see how they compare to Hikvision.

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Tony Lagan
Sep 10, 2017

You may find that while they may not be selling as much branded product they are probably being recognised for the revenue generated by their OEM partners.

JH
John Honovich
Sep 10, 2017
IPVM

they are probably being recognised for the revenue generated by their OEM partners.

There's definitely substantial revenue from the OEM partners, e.g., we covered that here - Dahua US Imports Examined.

But recognizing them for non-branded sales is economically illogical since they would get that OEM business without all the Dahua USA people whose goal is to sell Dahua branded products. For example, Dahua USA has ~10 people in marketing. Besides that it is not clear what all these people even do, their cost can NOT be returned / justified by OEM sales to FLIR or Speco, etc., because those are competitive brands to Dahua USA. Same for Dahua sales people, etc. Those people need to deliver Dahua branded sales.

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Campbell Chang
Sep 11, 2017

prices across the board for surveillance productsEVERYTHING is significantly higher than the US

 

Fixed that for you John

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JH
John Honovich
Sep 11, 2017
IPVM

Thanks Campbell! :)

Btw, what's your theory for that? Australia may be somewhat remote but Hawaii is even more remote and much smaller but prices for video surveillance products are effectively the same as the US mainland.

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Campbell Chang
Sep 11, 2017

I think the most complete answer is "because Australia"

Some you can lay at the feet of our high wages.  Some you can lay at the feet of the transportation costs (island and all).  Some you can lay at the feet of the cost of living and real estate and all that.

But none of that explains that stupid scenario a few years ago where it was cheaper to fly to LA purchase a physical copy of Adobe CS6 and fly back than it was to purchase a digital copy in Australia.

It also doesn't explain why a Porsche 718 Boxster S costs near double the price of what you can get in the US. 130K AU = 105K US

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Undisclosed #3
Sep 11, 2017
IPVMU Certified

But none of that explains that stupid scenario a few years ago where it was cheaper to fly to LA purchase a physical copy of Adobe CS6 and fly back than it was to purchase a digital copy in Australia.

Are more integrators/end users importing goods therefore?

And if so, shouldn't this put pressure on local pricing?

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Campbell Chang
Sep 11, 2017

Grey market products are a huge issue for Hikua here in Aus particularly within the domestic market because the margins there are razor thin.  Not as much within the commercial sector, still plenty of bargain basement integrators & sparkies who will use grey gear though.

It's not AS bad now the exchange rate has come back down from parity however.  Tony can probably give you a better idea though as he was Hik AU and now Dahua AU.

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Tony Lagan
Sep 13, 2017

Grey market is an issue for us and Hikvision no doubt but I think it is probably not as bad as everyone assumes.

We have done a lot of work to dissuade those who are grey importing from doing it, like not providing technical or warranty support and really just getting out there and educating the market. There will always be those seduced by saving $10 by buying grey but I think most already think we are priced well enough but want to ensure they get the support.

We have 12 technicians on the ground in Australia and with the exception of Hikvision and maybe Axis I don't think any other manufacturer comes close. People understand that to get this support they need to by locally and by in large the vast majority do.

Grey market will always be an issue given it is not illegal in Australia, I had problems with it when I was at Sony in the late 2000's where it was significantly cheaper to pull product out of the US than buying it locally. Hopefully people start realising that support comes at a small cost.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Sep 11, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

You aren't mathing correctly...? Lol

Also, being an island isn't a good reason why international products cost more, when 90% of the products made in China hit container ships or airplanes anyways. 

Its more likely the labor component, import duties (or lack there of elsewhere), or a currency mismatch. 

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Campbell Chang
Sep 12, 2017

Which part did I math incorrectly?

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Jon Dillabaugh
Sep 12, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

130K AU = 105K US

Not nearly double

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Campbell Chang
Sep 12, 2017

Sorry, I was unclear.  A Porsche Boxster will set you back ~55K USD in NA.

In Aus it will set you back 130K AUD which is approx. 105K USD.

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Undisclosed #3
Sep 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

A Porsche Boxster will set you back ~55K USD in NA.  In Aus it will set you back 130K AUD which is approx. 105K USD.

ok, lets import and sell Boxters into Australia, then :)

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #4
Sep 11, 2017

Yes you are growing because you are selling to everyone .... you have many good partners who do really professional installation but also many partners without training and skills .... than installation looks horrible and the system is useless.

Many of your products are sold not because of the features or quality but because of the price.

Dahua has only one goal, beat Hikvision on the market.

Hikvision has only one goal, beat Dahua on the market.

Result = you are destroying the market

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JH
John Honovich
Sep 11, 2017
IPVM

Dahua has only one goal, beat Hikvision on the market.

Hikvision has only one goal, beat Dahua on the market.

Result = you are destroying the market

I do agree that their competition / efforts are making the market much worse overall.

However, I see Dahua's goal as more of surviving against Hikvision. Hikvision is ~2.5x as large as Dahua so Dahua is huge by Western standards but still a distant #2 player to Hikvision. I think Dahua knows they can't 'beat' Hikvision because of the market share differential and Hikvision's government ownership. The question is whether Hikvision can knock Dahua out (and that does not even mean going out of business, just make it so painful for them that they retreat like the Taiwanese and Koreans have).

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Sean Nelson
Sep 12, 2017
Nelly's Security

I dont really see Hikvision competing with anyone. They are so far ahead of everyone else. I think they would like to get into other facets of the market but I dont think they are sweating bullets about competing with anyone.

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: I Dont Really See Hikvision Competing With Anyone. They Are So Far Ahead Of Everyone Else.

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Tony Lagan
Sep 13, 2017

You are right, many of our products are sold on price and you make it sound like that is a bad thing. Those products that are sold on price are still pretty good quality items that fulfil a need for an end user that as a result of being well priced can now afford a good quality CCTV solution, where in the past maybe he couldn't. How is that bad?

The flip side of the equation is that some of our higher quality products more than hold their own against the "Western" brands. Just recently we started working with a couple of councils based on the results of shootouts with many brands where our products performed very well. We were chosen 100% on merit and the councils have been extremely impressed and happy with the cameras they have started rolling out.

We are not destroying the market, that is a hollow argument that just doesn't stack up. Global CCTV sales are still growing. Lower cost systems like those mentioned above are enabling many businesses to invest/implement in CCTV where many in the past have not been able to. Enterprise level solutions are still being installed and we have made some headway there too because whether you like it or not we make some very good equipment.

Markets change and evolve and you can't blame us because other brands can't compete. Look at the American car industry... Once the most powerful in the world is now on its knees, Electronics manufacture has moved out as well. That huge american company Apple manufactures in China...manufacturing is shifting and things are getting cheaper (TV's cost less today than they did 30 years ago) that is as a result of a global economy and not anything that we are doing.

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David Coughlin
Sep 12, 2017
Protection One / ADT

What's the best restaurant in the world? ... If measured by volume, it's McDonalds. Hik and Dauwa claim success with volume but, that's not the issue. Quality of the products and the companies' support is the real issue. 

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David Coughlin
Sep 12, 2017
Protection One / ADT

Also, as far as "innovative products," I give you the McRib...Now that's innovation. 

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Tony Lagan
Sep 13, 2017

We have many innovative products that western brands don't come close to competing with like the camera based intelligent parking solution we have which includes signage.

We have a great range of mobile solutions for busses, trains and taxis. We have intelligent traffic solutions where we can monitor traffic flow and queue lengths and using the signal controllers we manufacture we can adjust traffic light phasing to improve traffic flow. 

I would say our range of security drones are fairly innovative and they are very impressive. We have a large range of innovative products, all that is required is that you open your eyes and take a look. 

15 years ago Hyundai were seen as inferior, now they make great quality cars. Times change and products improve. 

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #4
Sep 13, 2017

Hi Tony 

sorry but Hik is copying other brands and it is Destroing market 

Just one of hundred examples

HIK product - DS-2DP1636Z-D

Axis product - Q6000-E Mk

Hik

axis

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Jon Dillabaugh
Sep 13, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

That is a very poor example IMO. Are you saying that Axis also copied the industry when it developed its first dome camera? There are certain aspects of camera designs that are obvious to people in the industry and aren't able to be trademarked.

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Undisclosed #3
Sep 13, 2017
IPVMU Certified

There are certain aspects of camera designs that are obvious to people in the industry and aren't able to be trademarked.

Somebody tell Rukmini.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #4
Sep 13, 2017

this was just one example. I do not work for Axis but for another CCTV producer and you should see "engineers" from HIK walking around the boot during exhibition with the phone and making pictures of all new things ... sorry this is reality

and I am not talking about the software :) 

here is another one 

 

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Jon Dillabaugh
Sep 13, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

 vs 

 

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JH
John Honovich
Sep 13, 2017
IPVM

The Axis camera you show is IP, the Pelco camera you show is analog.

JD, help me understand your analogy better.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Sep 13, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

Just pointing out that even Axis has copied obvious form factors in the past. The example he gave with the Axis vs Hikvision are the same as the Pelco (et al) vs Axis. There were many well established form factors when Axis decided to make cameras. 

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JH
John Honovich
Sep 13, 2017
IPVM

(1) A multi-imager with an integrated PTZ and (2) a base unit with selectable imager/lens heads are as 'obvious' a form factor as a box camera, really?

To be clear, I think Hikvision and others doing (1) and (2) are fair game just like it is fair game for Axis to release multi-imagers even though Arecont did it first.

But you are really stretching the analogy by suggesting the box form factor is anywhere as obvious as the niche products that others have listed here.

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Tony Lagan
Sep 13, 2017

@ John... what about Axis copying a prison cell camera form factor? I would say that that is pretty niche...

JH
John Honovich
Sep 14, 2017
IPVM

Tony, what has Dahua done that is original? I find it ironic that a Dahua employee would be criticizing Axis when Dahua's originality is near nil.

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Tony Lagan
Sep 14, 2017

John, not once have I criticised Axis Product. I admire what they have done in the industry as the pioneers of IP Video and they make excellent products.

The point I am making if you to read into the sentiment of my post is that all companies in our industry have copied ideas off others. By pointing out that it is only the Chinese that have done it is misleading. The entire industry copied Axis when they released their own IP Cameras... Undisclosed 4 states below that who will sue for intellectual property. Does that mean that Axis sues the entire industry because they made IP cameras?

You state yourself John that  "just like it is fair game for Axis to release multi-imagers even though Arecont did it first." 

Go back and read any of my posts, you will see that I never criticise another manufacturer, our industry is too small for that I have also never hidden my identity when posting, I am happy to own my comments. However pointing out differences or instances where others may have developed products based on the ideas of other companies is not criticism.

You ask what we have done that is innovative?

Our intelligent traffic solutions are quite innovative where we can use camera intelligence to monitor traffic flows and queue lengths and adjust traffic signals with our own traffic light controllers to optimise traffic flow and then tie that in with cameras that con enforce illegal parking, lane changes and speeding and then do that on a city wide scale. I do not know of other CCTV companies that do that.

We recently won a new product award at The ASIAL show in Australia for best new product with our extended POE range, from what I know 800m is the longest in the industry and there is obviously some pretty good design that has gone into that. 

http://www.securityworldmarket.com/int/News/Business-News/dahua-epoe-nvr-won-2017-security-best-new-product-award#.WbsSPsgjGUk

We have won a number of Red Dot design awards.

We are far from being the perfect company, but we are improving very rapidly and we make some very good product some of which are totally our own ideas ;)

John, I would suggest you try to arrange a visit to our innovation centre in Hangzhou... you may be surprised.

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Tony Lagan
Sep 13, 2017

Do you honestly think that an Axis engineer has never visited another manufactures stand, or Pelco, or Avigilon or ........

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #4
Sep 14, 2017

ok can you find same products as above between Axis and Avigilon ?

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Tony Lagan
Sep 13, 2017

This is just a desperate and ludicrious argument.

Has Axis destroyed the market by copying Flir in making thermal cameras? Has Axis destroyed the market by copying Arecont and Avigilon in making Multi imager cameras? Has every other IP Camera manufacturer destroyed the market by copying Axis and developing their own IP cameras? Have all the VMS companies destroyed the market by copying each others ideas.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #4
Sep 14, 2017

How Hik is destroying the market:

someone make new product, pay for development, paying for advertising, trying to put in the project and persuade customer that this is good solution.

than Hik see that this is good product, ok let start production in 2 months

how we are going to persuade users to use our products instead original one? 

by the price? yes

how come we can make it cheaper?

because we do not have to pay for development :)

Intellectual property ? Who will sue Chinese government :)

 

 

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Jon Dillabaugh
Sep 12, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

David, I can't help but think that you don't have much experience with either Hikvision or Dahua products, maybe other than their kit level models. We commonly work with many various brands and can surely point to a few things that both could improve on, but to compare them to McDonald's is really short sighted IMO.

What I would like to hear from you is what brand you are comparing them to as well as the opposition to McDonalds that you think this product should be associated with when comparing the two. 

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Undisclosed #3
Sep 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

...but to compare them to McDonald's is really short sighted IMO.

Yes, more like Panda Express ;)

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U
Undisclosed #3
Sep 09, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Since the article is not public, does this suggest that Krasimir is not bothered and even amused by paying hundreds of dollars annually for what he at least considers '80% totally inaccurate'?

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JH
John Honovich
Sep 09, 2017
IPVM

He does not have an account. It suggests he is happy to illicitly access IPVM articles and brag about it. 

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U
Undisclosed #3
Sep 09, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I'd send him an invite to give him a better perspective, but I only have 3 left and the holidays are coming up :)

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