Subscriber Discussion

What Hikvision Cameras Should IPVM Test?

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Jon Dillabaugh
Apr 25, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

4K Bullet: DS-2CD4A85F-IZH - We have used this model and have been very happy with the low light ability. I think this would be our default outdoor camera if every budget allowed.

4MP Bullet: DS-2CD2T42WD-I5 - This may be the one you already have? This is a good default camera for outdoor scenes where it can be mounted out of the reach of vandals. Has 120db True WDR as well.

2MP Darkfighter Bullet: DS-2CD4A26FWD-IZH8 - This model has a longer lens option and I am curious about the low light disadvantage (if any) if the lens is zoomed to the full 32mm setting. The 8~32mm lens is rated at f/1.4, the same value for the 2.8~12mm lens. That seems unlikely to me.

4MP Turret: DS-2CD2342WD-I - Bonus testing of the turret model to see if its EXIR performs as well as the bullet model. The bullet is rated at 50m and the turret 30m, but more importantly, which performs better in near field, more than overall range.

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: Axis Lowest Cost Outdoor IR Camera M2025-LE Tested

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JH
John Honovich
Apr 25, 2017
IPVM

I moved this to its own discussion so any other members can comment and/or offer other Hikvision models to test. Also, I added links to all models above so people can check them out.

At the end of the week, we will buy models for testing.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Apr 26, 2017

Hey Jon, I see these are all bullet type cameras, just wondering if why no dome?  Do yu have pros/cons for bullet over dome or is it that Hikvision does not have a dome that fits what your chosen bullets have?  (FYI- I don't use Hikvision so I am just curious)

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Jon Dillabaugh
Apr 26, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

We do use domes mostly, but for testing purposes I think bullets are going to perform better, with respect to the IR performance. If I need to rely on IR, I will default to a bullet, as long as the situation allows. If vandalism is a concern, then a dome or turret will need to be used instead. But, when using domes, we usually know going in that IR performance will not be as good as the equivalent bullet.

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Steve Beck
Apr 26, 2017

Here's one DS-2CD4A26FWD-IZH8 vote right here. Used the 2.8~12mm Darkfighter a ton but never the 8~32mm Bullet.

MC
Marty Calhoun
Apr 28, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Since Marty takes the brunt of the jokes, criticism and accusations I would appreciative a chance for IPVM to test these few cameras against any other manufacturer comparative camera with similar specifications and report the results, squarely.

Will IPVM test these and report? Let's see....

  • DS-2TD2136-25 Low Res Thermal, very reasonable price point
  • DS-2DE4A204IW-DE Dark fighter/Value Series/Mini PTZ
  • DS-2CD2055FWD-I  5mp Bullet/ H.265+ compression w/new Chipset
  • DS-2CE16H1T-AIT3Z  5MP Turbo-HD 3.0 vari-focal bullet
  • DS-7204HUI-KI  Turbo-HD 4.0 Recorder

 

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JH
John Honovich
Apr 28, 2017
IPVM

Marty, the only one that probably does not make sense to test is the thermal one, considering there's not a lot of demand for thermal. Secondarily, online it sells for ~$3,000. I understand you get a special super dealer discount but a $3,000 street price thermal is not cheap.

In particular, I'd like to test the Turbo-HD 4.0, especially since it claims higher resolution and Power over Coax which are both important differentiators.

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MC
Marty Calhoun
Apr 28, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I disagree because $3000.00 for that type of camera is "inexpensive" compared to other manufacturers of a comparative model when the HIKVISION camera is of the same if not better quality therefore anyone interested in purchasing a Thermal it would be good information to have.

Has IPVM rejected my request to test the above listed models due to cost of the camera?

Customarily many manufacturers will provide from time to time devices for testing purposes at no expense to IPVM. If these camera happen to fall into that category would IPVM test them and report the findings?

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JH
John Honovich
Apr 28, 2017
IPVM

I told you explicitly why I rejected it. Let me bold it for you:

Marty, the only one that probably does not make sense to test is the thermal one, considering there's not a lot of demand for thermal.

I repeat, we rarely get requests to test thermal and it has gone down in the last 5 years as super low light (Lightfinder, Darkfighter, etc.) have improved and integrated IR has become commonplace.

As for the $3,000 Hikvision thermal camera being 'inexpensive', the Axis Q1941-E thermal camera (same resolution as the Hikvision) is widely available online in the $2,500 range. This makes it even less interesting for readers since the Hikvision thermal is not competitively priced.

Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Apr 28, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

John, do you think with the recent downward trend of low cost TI cameras that adoption will increase? I agree that visual cameras have come a long way, but there are still use cases for TI. Some of those couldn't afford the likes of a Flir FC-618, but with the $2500 and under range, they are getting more affordable. Just a thought. 

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: What Factors Are Limiting Thermal Camera Adoption?

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: What Factors Are Limiting Thermal Camera Adoption?

JH
John Honovich
Apr 28, 2017
IPVM

do you think with the recent downward trend of low cost TI cameras that adoption will increase?

I disagree that there is a recent downward trend of low cost thermal cameras. 5 years ago, $2,000 thermal cameras were already available (see e.g., our test). They never were highly demanded and now there are many more non-thermal strong low light substitutes. 

The decrease in super low light and integrated IR cameras cost has been very steep and much more significant than what has happened in thermal.

Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Apr 28, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

I won't argue those points, but you do have to wonder why so many manufacturers are jumping into the pool now? Hikvision, Axis, Dahua, etc...

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JH
John Honovich
Apr 28, 2017
IPVM

Hikvision and Dahua want to sell everything - drones, robots, access control, intrusion, etc. I don't see that as a point for thermal as much as it reflects H and D's ambitions to sell everything.

As for Axis, the Q1941-E was released in 2015 (or as you refer to 2015, 'old') and this is the first time anyone is discussing it.

I just don't see any significant growth prospects for thermal camera usage.

And, think about it, if thermal was such a huge growth market, why is FLIR, the original thermal provider, working so hard to diversify / expand into other categories.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Apr 28, 2017

Hey John,

Would it be worth while to start a poll on this subject? I am new to the industry, but my boss keeps mentioning thermal cameras and I am curious to see other interrogator's point of views. 

JH
John Honovich
Apr 28, 2017
IPVM

#2, I've added thermal camera interest to our list of upcoming surveys. Once a twice a month, we send out a list of questions and get 100 - 150 integrator responses. This will provide a more structured response. Thanks.

U
Undisclosed #3
May 04, 2017
IPVMU Certified

...Marty takes the brunt of the jokes...

...U3 makes the brunt of the jokes...

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MM
Michael Miller
Apr 28, 2017

You guys are talking about Hikivision thermal camera and I check my spam and there is a Hikvision deal for 50% off demo thermal cameras.    They also have 30% off your first project order PLUS partner discount! Crazy...

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JH
John Honovich
Apr 28, 2017
IPVM

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Jon Dillabaugh
Apr 28, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

I think this is exactly the type of troll post that you would normally delete, right John?

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JH
John Honovich
Apr 28, 2017
IPVM

I am not trolling anyone. Miller said it was 'crazy', I posted a related video.

Do you have anything else to add about your thermal camera case? So far it's been unconvincing. 

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Brandon Knutson
Apr 28, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I've been very curious about sub-$1,000 thermal cameras using intrusion analytics (although it's bye-bye Rialto time). I don't see thermal as a substitute for low-light visible cameras, but as a substitute for other exterior detection solutions.  

JH
John Honovich
Apr 28, 2017
IPVM

Besides the $500 FLIR one we tested, Who's doing sub-$1,000 thermal cameras? 

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Brandon Knutson
Apr 28, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Ok. I'm no longer very curious :)

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MC
Marty Calhoun
Apr 28, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Are you complaining because someone is offering a discounted price?

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MM
Michael Miller
Apr 28, 2017

Not complaining just don't see how a company can be profitable when they give an extra 30% off the dealers discount level.   That would be 80% off for a lot of dealers. 

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MC
Marty Calhoun
Apr 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Well I can assure you its not 80% off MSRP, thats humorous. I have plenty to do without worrying about why Jeffery decides to have sales, I am more or less thankful for it. So let me ask a question of you: If AXIS were to have a sale and offer 35% off would you worry about the companies future as much?

Hikvision has decided to be a LEADER in the industry and not follow the old ways of doing business. Of course I expect that statement to be taken out of context, politicized and blown out of proportion like 99% of other statements that shed a positive light on the Chinese. 

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: Hikvision Has Decided To Be A LEADER In The Industry And Not Follow The Old Ways Of Doing Business

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MM
Michael Miller
Apr 29, 2017

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MG
Michael Gombos
May 01, 2017

I'd love to see the new h265+ cameras tested. 

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JH
John Honovich
May 01, 2017
IPVM

Michael, for sure, testing Hikvision's H.265+ will definitely be done. We've tested numerous smart codec implementations along the way, including Testing Axis ZipstreamAxis Zipstream 2 TestedHikvision H.264+ TestedPanasonic Smart Coding TestedDahua Smart H.264+ TestedSmart H.265 Samsung Test, etc.

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Steve Beck
May 03, 2017

DS-2DF8836I5V-AELW (4K IR PTZ Camera)

Only because Hikvision is claiming 1500 feet IR distance in nighttime. 

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JH
John Honovich
May 03, 2017
IPVM

Steve, doing a Hikvision PTZ test would be good. Any other Hikvision PTZs to consider? The Darkfighter one or?

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Steve Beck
May 03, 2017

 I think IPVM did a test of a value one so I don't think another test on a basic IR 2MP would show us anything different. Yeah the darkfinder one would be good or this one.

 

DS-2DF8336IV-AEL

60 frames per second at 3MP. 

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Jon Dillabaugh
May 04, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

I'm unsure if I am too late with an update, but I received the new Hikvision catalog for Summer 2017 and there are some new models that look very interesting if they hold up to the specs. I will list some of the ones I think will be interesting below. One thing that stands out is 4MP is gone. Everything is 2MP, 3MP, 5MP, or 8MP. Most of those are 4:3, but can be cropped to 16:9 resolutions if desired.

DS-2CD2T35FWD-I5 3MP H.265+ Bullet, 0.008 lux in color (super low light, but not branded as DarkFighter?), 120db WDR, EXIR 2.0

DS-2CD2135FWD-I Dome version of above 3MP bullet. Same specs.

DS-2CD2T85FWD-I5 8MP H.265+ Bullet, 0.027 lux in color (not as low as the 3MP) 120db WDR, EXIR 2.0

DS-2CD2185FWD-I Dome version of above 8MP bullet. Same specs.

These will likely become the base models in our lineup. If the 5MP had as good of low light ratings, we would likely use it over the 3MP and crop to 4MP, but can't due to the poor low light rating on that model. Heck, maybe we should test the 5MP to see if it really is as bad as rated?

Obviously both bullet and dome wouldn't need to be tested, but just wanted to offer both model numbers in case one is prefered.

VG
Victor Gouanda
Jun 26, 2017

I request for model DS-2CD2025FWD-I, for their H.265+ vs H.264+ performance & low light performance vs other 2MP peers. 

And for their network switch DS-3E0105P-E for their claim up to 250m long reach to camera.

Thanks.

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Ethan Ace
Jun 26, 2017

We are actually wrapping up our test of the 2025 now. As well as the 2385 4K camera. They should be coming in the next few weeks.

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