Subscriber Discussion

Hikvision Camera Management - Is There A Better Option Than Batch Config Tool?

MI
Matt Ion
Mar 05, 2019

My head is going to explode if someone doesn't have a better way to do this.

We've been using almost entirely Axis for a restaurant customer's front-of-house cameras for several years now, as the P3384s were the best we'd found (at the time) for low light, and more recently the P3225 for low light and WDR. Axis Camera Management has been a godsend for pushing time sync, DNS, and nearly all available video settings, to make for easy and consistent setup across 40 stores in four provinces. Suffice to say, I'm a fan of ACM.

Recently we've found the HIK 5146 model has substantially better low light and WDR performance, and at a good 2/3 the price, the customer has gone whole-hog spec'ing them for FOH on new builds and upgrades. Which is fine, they're a great camera and all... but HIK has nothing even close to ACM. 

Batch Configtool works... mostly. It's clunky as hell, needing to select cameras and then copy blocks of settings from one of them to the others. I always worry that selecting the "Video and Audio" block to clone frame and bit rates will also try to copy resolution or other settings I don't want it to... and it doesn't seem to touch some settings I DO want it to. And of course, it doesn't support templates like I use for Axis.

Worst of all, trying to centrally manage cameras across the entire WAN is completely useless, because it adds (or tries to add) EVERYTHING it finds in an IP range scan: HIK cameras, Dahua cameras, the odd Samsung, Axis cameras, Axis decoders... I think it even tried to add a few TP-Link managed switches. 

iVMS is no better, and it's extreme overkill for just wanting to edit or bulk-edit cameras.

Tell me there's another option... or that Axis has a new model that will blow the 5146 away on both performance and cost. Please.

 

U
Undisclosed #1
Mar 05, 2019
IPVMU Certified

Matt, have you tried using HikCentral?

I saw this in the manual:

Maybe it’s got the same flaws as the batch tool you are using.  However it does seem to have templates, so...

MI
Matt Ion
Mar 05, 2019

Just taking a glance at it, and it looks promising. I'll try it out on the management server. 

In fact, comparing free and paid versions, it looks like the free version checks all my boxes... except it's limited to 8 cameras.

Thanks, Anon.

 

U
Undisclosed #1
Mar 06, 2019
IPVMU Certified

Thanks, Anon.

Your welcome, Ion.

MI
Matt Ion
Mar 05, 2019

Hmmm except the free version won't run in a VM. That may preclude even testing it on the current setup.

 

MI
Matt Ion
Mar 06, 2019

Well, it appears to mainly provide, at least when it comes to cameras, a server-based version of Batch Configtool. It still finds EVERYTHING in the IP range I specify, adds it all, and then just shows anything it doesn't recognize as "offline".

The main advantage I can see is that it does run on a central server and allow web access from anywhere... which with BCT I'd need to remote into whatever server it's running on. Otherwise it's still pretty clunky.

 

MM
Michael Miller
Mar 05, 2019

Sounds like the customer is going to make up the cost delta between Axis and Hikvision on the install labor alone and keep paying more for service.  

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MI
Matt Ion
Mar 05, 2019

Probably. I mean, I don't disagree that they're better performing cameras, but the mad rush to them is going to be the death of me.

....nevermind the fact, they're spec'ing them for outdoor FOH locations as well, despite my telling them several times now they're NOT OUTDOOR CAMERAS.

U
Undisclosed #1
Mar 06, 2019
IPVMU Certified

Sounds like the customer is going to make up the cost delta between Axis and Hikvision on the install labor alone and keep paying more for service.

Even if they do end up the same, at least the customer ends up with a camera that “has substantially better low light and WDR performance”.

And you’re all about the customer, right?

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MM
Michael Miller
Mar 06, 2019

I don't know if the image is that much better to justify the added labor as I have not tested the cameras. Matt, also mentioned they are indoor cameras and the customer is specing them outside.  Is that something you recommend? 

What I do know is there are many different parts that need to come together to make a IP video system work well.  Video from the camera is one and management of the system is another.  Most customers just look at the image and never think to ask how much more is this system going to cost to manage for the next 10 years. 

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U
Undisclosed #1
Mar 06, 2019
IPVMU Certified

I don't know if the image is that much better to justify the added labor as I have not tested the cameras.

Well, I know your familiar with Matt as being on of the most experienced and well regarded integrators on this site.  For 10+ years.

So why not credit his judgement on image quality?  

I get that you don’t sell Hik anymore; and since then that you never fail to snidely insinuate that anyone that still does is either a) putting their customer/country at risk or b) making a quick buck that will ultimately backfire. That’s your opinion, and your entitled to it.

What I don’t get is why you think it’s helpful to post it here, in a purely technical thread by someone seeking an actual solution; and who is well aware of the various trade-offs involved in TCO.

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MM
Michael Miller
Mar 06, 2019

EDIT I saw you're the same UD poster that recommended HikCentral. At least I don't have to hide my name when I talk about a product.

I was looking at this from a support management issue as I have direct experience managing large systems and have seen customers look at one part of a large system and not understand how saving $100 on a camera can cost X10 more to support/manage.  You can spin this any way you want.  

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JH
John Honovich
Mar 06, 2019
IPVM

Ok, let's try to help Matt directly. The question of whether Axis overall capabilities justifies a higher price is a fair one but not appropriate for this thread and unfair to Matt.

I created a new discussion on this: Does Axis Overall Capabilities Justify Its Higher Price Vs Hikvision?

U
Undisclosed #1
Mar 06, 2019
IPVMU Certified

I saw you're the same UD poster that recommended HikCentral

No, you didn’t, because I never did recommend it.  I only suggested looking at it based on what the OP asked and what the manual said.  I actually lowered expectations of it being a panacea, based on my experience with Hik software in general.

I was looking at this from a support management issue as I have direct experience managing large systems and have seen customers look at one part of a large system and not understand how saving $100 on a camera can cost X10 more to support/manage.

So are you trying to educate Matt, or just others wondering about batch config tools?

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MI
Matt Ion
Mar 07, 2019

I don't know if the image is that much better to justify the added labor as I have not tested the cameras.

To be clear: it is MUCH better, especially in low light and extreme WDR situations. The P3225 has a nasty halo effect when the WDR is amped up; the 5146 doesn't. The overall WDR balance is better. The low light image is cleaner with less motion blur. It really really is better, at least right now... because we know the way the industry goes, Axis or someone else could come out with something else that blows it away tomorrow (although price point is a whole other issue).

...they are indoor cameras and the customer is specing them outside.

Although we have since learned that there's an outdoor version of it, or an outdoor camera with the same specs and performance. But there HAVE been at least three instances so far of the 5146 being given to me for outdoor use. Fortunately in two instances, there's been a P3225-VE indoors that I was able to replace with the 5146, and put the VE in the outdoor location.

Yes, I'm all about the customer and ultimately I'll give them what's best for THEM, and at this moment, the 5146 is that option. Doesn't mean I'm not frustrated by the support and management challenges (and installation headaches, but that's a whole other story). But I'm not gonna tell them that.

 

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Michael Votaw
Mar 07, 2019

Be interesting to see if someone comes up with a better management tool.  TruVision has been very good with their Navigator software as well, but I'll say any larger system takes way too long to program and commission if you actually go through the cameras and set what you should be in each one.

DR
Dennis Ruban
Mar 07, 2019

I use batch config tool to upgrade the firmware. I store all the device info in the excel spreadsheet and just import it when I need to run an update.

I don't really understand what you need to configure all the time. I set the device after tech installs it and all I need to do is just update FW once there's a new version.

Time sync is done by NVR. All the network settings are just a one-time thing and a part of the installation process. What else?

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Michael Votaw
Mar 07, 2019

Configuring analytics, motion detection, light levels, WDR etc.  Just would think there would be a better and faster way to do all of this and commission a system properly.

The spreadsheet method is clunky at best.

MI
Matt Ion
Jun 24, 2019

Well as an example: I'm just wrapping a new build right now. 

Previously with Axis cameras, I'd just add them to ADM (ACM before that), then apply a config file appropriate to the specific purpose of that camera (or group of cameras) - all Front of House cameras get 8fps, 2048kbit, LightFinder on, WDR off, and other assorted settings specific to that position, loaded from a handly XML. ID shots get 20fps, 4096kbit, WDR on, etc. Then select the entire bunch for that site and apply DNS and TZ settings. 

This is exceedingly clunky in BCT. Check the boxes you want (no standard multi-select like click-hold shift-click for a range), batch config, then select which camera has the settings you want to copy from (make sure you remember the right one or you fubar the lot of them)... and then select broad groups of settings to copy (copying "Camera" settings copies ALL Camera settings - I can't copy the mirror setting without it also getting the rotation/corridor setting).

Now one of the great features with ACM is the ability to push common settings to disparate cameras - for example, a new framerate setting can be sent to any Axis camera in the list, regardless of model. With BCT, it simply chokes when copying from one model to a different model. I can't even do 5146s and 5746s (the latter essentially being the outdoor version of the former) in one shot. And I just found on this site, some settings don't copy consistently at all.

And that's all for new build. Recently the client decided that all their ID cameras would be upped from 12fps to 20fps. In ACM... easy. Edit the XML file, select all the cameras tagged as "ID Shot", and apply the new setting. Boom, done, five different camera models, 30+ sites, 40+ cameras, four provinces. BCT... good bloody luck, since I don't even have a way to tag which cameras are ID vs. other positions.

 

MI
Matt Ion
Jun 24, 2019

Literally happened just now in BCT: selected all my 2135s, (no shift-click though, individually have to click-click-click-click 15 cameras), clicked Batch Configuration, went to the Video & Audio page, edited the one selected "copy from" camera, changed the framerate from 6144 to 2048, clicked Save, selected "Video & Audio" as the parameters to copy... all cameras say they configured successfully, but none of the others have the desired framerate set.

Basically useless... I'm back to changing every one manually.

 

 

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Sean Patton
Jun 24, 2019

Matt,

ACM and Hikvision Batch Configurator were included in our Camera Configuration Manager Shootout in addition to Avigilon, Bosch, Dahua,  and Hanwha. Each tool was tested with ~10 cameras of each manufacturer. There may be issues when running the tools against larger camera sets that we could not detect due to this limitation.

Both performed well in our test, and we did not experience some of the issues you identified (e.g. " I can't even <copy framerate settings between> 5146s and 5746s" in one shot). I was able to copy settings between 2 very different models (2CD4565 and 4A26) - not full resolution ranges of course (6MP vs 2MP). Perhaps you're configuring secondary streams/multiple streams simultaneously? Hikvision was weaker in advanced configuration in our Shootout, and being a standalone client versus Axis Client/Server, could be a disadvantage for Hikvision in larger systems with 1,200+ cameras. One of the primary limitations of Hikvision versus Axis is when the cameras are offline/not connected, they are not logged or visible in Batch Configuration. 

The other tool that scored strongest was Bosch Configuration Manager. It supports 3rd party ONVIF connected cameras nearly as well as Bosch's own cameras.

Additional clarification: You mentioned not using iVMS for these updates, but are you using iVMS? Some of these settings/configuration tasks are much easier in a VMS.

DR
Dennis Ruban
Jun 24, 2019

I agree the Axis configuration tool is much better. I just don't really have the cases like yours when I need to change something all the time. Most of my setups were configured once.

You pay 2-3 times as much for Axis. For sure, there should be bells and whistles available.

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Sean Nelson
Mar 07, 2019
Nelly's Security

Are you using the config file from one camera and duplicating it to the cameras that you want to? To me this would be the quickest method of going abouts.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Mar 07, 2019
IPVMU Certified

Is there a way to get the config file to all the cameras in a list at once, or do you need to log into each one and download the file?

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Sean Nelson
Mar 07, 2019
Nelly's Security

The Batch Config Tool allows for that. One thing you will want to make sure of is that you are doing it across the same models with the same firmwares. Otherwise you may run into issues

U
Undisclosed #1
Mar 09, 2019
IPVMU Certified

Is the config file format an editable text file of name/attribute pairs, or is it a binary file?

Either way, it sounds like a decent way to push out the settings.

MI
Matt Ion
Jun 24, 2019

Yeah, the model/firmware thing is a major stumbling block for me.  I have 5146s for indoor front-of-house and 5746s for outdoor. I want to set the same framerate, bitrate, i-frame interval, and a couple other things on all of them. Can't do it. Have to do both separately. With ACM... no problem.

 

MI
Matt Ion
Jun 24, 2019

Unless I'm missing something, I just exported from BCT and I get CSV file containing nothing but ID,Device Type,IP Address,Port,Software Version,Serial No.

MI
Matt Ion
Apr 27, 2022

Still running into this three years later. "One touch config" looks like it should be magical, but exporting a template gives me only a CSV with a list of column headers... and I can't find anything anywhere to explain the format of the column data. Searching has turned up just about everything BUT.

And yes, I see there's now Hik-ProConnect. It's no more useful than HikCentral - the Engrish is horrid, it consistently fails to import 5546s to my site (7146s and 2143s go no problem), and the batch configuration options are even more limited than they are in BCT.

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Kyle Folger
Mar 09, 2019
IPVMU Certified

I'm not really sure why Hikvision hasn't updated their config software or even Hikvision iVMS-4200 in a while it seems. The NVR interface has been refreshed and it nice. It would be nice if that interface resembled a lot of their other products. The web interface has gotten better over the years. It would be really helpful if the Hikvision batch config worked more like Axis and was more like a service that could continually run and find updates periodically. 

It looks like Axis has moved from Axis Camera Management to Axis Device Manager. I guess that would make sense from a name perspective since they have moved into many more product categories than just cameras.

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