Subscriber Discussion

Hikvision 3 Year Warranty With Advanced Replacement

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 07, 2017

HIK are acknowledged as having excellent reliability. When a camera goes wrong at any time within the 5 3 year warranty you can have an advanced replacement delivered FOC and the faulty unit collected FOC. I checked this morning and if it’s a current model, it’s a straight swap, if it’s a superseded model you get it’s replaced model and if it’s obselete you receive a credit.

As an integrator we go back to back with this arrangement passing the benefit through to the client. Commercially, this hooks the client in for 5 years - allowing for all the additional works that come along. From the sharp end - that’s good business sense. 

 

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: Most Respected Manufacturer Competitors

NOTICE: This discussion originally said 5 years but the member updated later saying it was only 3 years. As such, the title was changed.

(1)
Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

i think your talking cross purposes 

if it doesnt go wrong as their so reliable the warranty is unimportant

my point was should in the extremely unlikely event a product fail thats 5 years old

you would be hard pressed to replace it

so your customer would be happy with his credit note and not a working camera?

 

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

and im the crazy one !!!!

JH
John Honovich
Nov 07, 2017
IPVM

Note: I moved this to its own post because I think it's a very compelling, atypical offer.

#1, if I was a Hikvision dealer, I would certainly be happy about that warranty program, it's extremely generous.

My concern would be the economics of it. While I agree with you that their hardware reliability is strong, 5 years is a long time, and any electronics out in the wild will have issues. Plus, the free shipping and getting the newer superseded model have costs, both up front and the opportunity lost of not being able to sell another camera for n number of years after the warranty claim is made. I am sensing I am going to get a lecture about how I don't understand Chinese economics so I will patiently wait for that.

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

chinese economics heads they win tails you loose

not very complicated

 

JH
John Honovich
Nov 07, 2017
IPVM

chinese economics heads they win

I certainly get that they 'win' in the short term. Taking on a long term liability that has zero immediate cash impact (e.g., a warranty) is a good way to boost immediate sales.

On the other hand, it is a risky way to imperil future sales and profits.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 07, 2017

Bearing in mind this is exactly what Napco we’re doing in the late 90’s and HID have done for years with their lifetime warranty on readers. Advance replacement is convenient for HIK as repairing in Holland takes several weeks. 

I’m not sure any of us can comment on the commercial viability to HIK other than to say it wouldn’t cost a great deal given the low failure rate. Mick will know that Norbain did similar advance replacements on their VVRD for many years - so it’s not unique but it is a significant selling point.

 

(1)
Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

thats why norbain went bust

and got bought out in administration

 

 

(2)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 07, 2017

I think you’ll find it was a pre-pack administration whereby all existing warranties were still supported. I know as we were doing £1m of business per year with them over a 12 year period. All warranties were honoured. 

The warranty issue would never send a company under as you know Mick unless they had a colossal failure rate - which they never (only the duff ex-Kalatel, Blade DVRS they were withdrawn soon after their release).

 

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

you gloss this up like they paid a reasonable price

suppliers lost millions of pounds

their 5 year warranty killed them

did they go bust for 120m ?

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 07, 2017

I am no longer a fan of Norbain for other reasons. You will find that agreements were made to offset losses to suppliers to continue with the Newbury hat. Yes I know the Luke’s of BBV were hurt, but most still went back to supply.

but I’m not going to support Norbain other than to say the 5 year warranty did not sink them and the honouring of warranties was put into place.

At the end of the day Mick we have to agree to disagree. You do not feel it is viable for QVIS to offer more than 3 years - that’s fine.

if you speak to most consumers, clients and corporate entities and ask would they sooner have 5 years than 3, I think you’ll find that 5 years gets the money shot.

But clearly you see it as a reason to attack your competitors - which is your perogative.

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

I wasn’t attacking anyome

you seem to

be overly defensive

see how you honour warranty in 5 years

merely poimting out 

a hammered hard drive won’t last that long

to be honest I’m goimg

into hospital tomorrow morning for an avm to

be removed from

my brain

i genuinely care about our industry i

have enough money dont

need to

work

but just try help

misguided people

domt

want

to

be one

of those

told you so people 

hik is at your peril

 

(1)
Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

unfortunately i think its the intergrator is more likely to go bust 

delivering too much on tight margins

 

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 07, 2017

Mick, a little N’Golo established concept in business is that keeping a client is far easier and cheaper than finding a new one.

We offer a paid for contract that extends from the 12 month defects liability to either 3 or five years. As part of that offer we extend the warranty (equipment only - not call out and labour) for the balance of years of the contract. All we ‘lose’ is the margin on failed equipment - which with HIK is exceptionally low.

Conversly, if we were selling unreliable equipment the cost is undoubtedly higher in terms of reputation, defects liability and ongoing business.

It’s a business model that works well for us Mick.

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 07, 2017

I’ve no idea how th Ngolo typo crept in! It should read “a well established....”

Anyways.....just wrapping up another HIK install....happy days.

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

Best of luck 

JH
John Honovich
Nov 07, 2017
IPVM

It's unique in video surveillance, to the best of my knowledge. There was a DVTel 'lifetime' warranty but that had fine print conditions that extremely limited it. Also, I have not seen anyone in video surveillance offer free advanced replacement over 5 years. 

And the HID reader lifetime warranty has numerous limitations plus advance replacement is not free. Also, readers are surely going to have lower failure rates than cameras given how they are used and where they are placed.

Again, I am totally with you that it is a great deal for you. As a Hikvision dealer, I understand why you are happy with it.

I am simply saying that the strength of this offer, in video surveillance, is unprecedented and could wind up costing Hikvision a lot of money down the line.

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 08, 2017

I think installers are confussed over warranty

because they sign upto a contract of supply from a supplier

theu have no consumer rights 

they have a contract and terms and conditions with that specific supplier

in fact we spoke to hikvision in the U.K. they offer 3 years warranty 

so the extra 2 years are with the distributor 

they also think 5 years is too long

as products will be superceeded

so I would suggest installers run credit ratings on suppliers if they are looking for long warranty to be upheld

if the wholeseller goes out of business you have no contract with hikvision

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 08, 2017
AN APOLOGY Mick is quite correct and I am wrong. The Hikvision advanced replacement policy is indeed for 3 years and not 5. I've no excuses for this other than it's what, wrongfully, I had always had in mind. Hopefully, people we see that it was not deliberate as it can so easily be verified - as Mick has rightly done. I feel suitable embarrassed and frankly, stupid - so won't dig an even deeper hole by saying much else, other than sorry. For the extended warranties we provide, passing on the 3 year Hik warranty, nothing changes and they still provide the same value to customer and ourselves. But the fact is, I got it wrong - totally wrong and I apologize unreservedly for that. I'll now find a suitable rock to crawl under.....
JH
John Honovich
Nov 08, 2017
IPVM

#1, no problem. I've update the title appropriately.

3 years with advanced replacement, etc. is still very good just as not as eye popping as 5 :)

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 08, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I'll now find a suitable rock to crawl under.....

Undiscloseds need no rock :)

Avatar
Sean Nelson
Nov 08, 2017
Nelly's Security

Thats interesting because I have heard of some Hik USA customers receiving 5 year warranty's from Hik in the USA on their Platinum Or (Diamond or whatever) program. I know because I lost one of my biggest customers to Hik USA and this was one of their reasons. Yep, i lost a customer to Hik USA.

JH
John Honovich
Nov 08, 2017
IPVM

Sean, the Hikvision partner program document does mention 5 years but not with the other elements that #1 is mentioning, see excerpt:

The no-cost advanced replacement and the free upgrade to replacement models are the two elements that are atypical.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 08, 2017

Perhaps that's where I picked up my nugget of info? I notice you've covered this before John - so perhaps it's the Diamond/Platinum VASPS that have the deal? 

5 Year Warranty Hikvision And Dahua - New Norm For Surveillance Cameras?

 

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 08, 2017

I’m laying in hospital bed just have brain surgery

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 08, 2017

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=porsche+cayman+718+review&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 07, 2017

So how would an installer lose exactly? The warranty is between the manufacturer and the installer - we choose to pass it to the client for commercial reasons in keeping them on board. Really hard to see why I lose?

(1)
Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

hard drive is certainly an issue 

many customers buy nvr dvr without hard drive fit them selve

ok you fit a 4 chn dvr in a hair dressers 1080p

4 years later one of the cameras fail

hik has moved to analogue poc

ip 4k 8k ?

no replacement camera what are you going to do for the customer

say heres a credit note sorry you not got a working camera

 

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

john this is a commercial decision 

hik will issue a credit note

what will the installer do for the customer

to give you an idea a hik customer has come to us for older cameras as they are no longer sold by hikvision this is for 3 large pan european retailers

they guess they need 200 cameras a month to service these clients

i just think some installers think through long term problems

just live for today

 

(1)
Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

one critical factor in any dvr nvr is the hard drive

one of the reasons our nvr is more expensive on 16 chn and above is we spread the hard drive load over multiple drives

seagate and wd were looking to see how much hdd use to see what warranty they will give if a single hard drive being beaten to death every day for 5 years will it last ?

 

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 07, 2017

Couldn’t agree more. That’s why we use the full RAID configuration on the 9 series, across the multiple hot swappable bays.

We use the GDPR compliant Seagates.....

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

the problem is you represent a very narrow part of the market

if you sell any solutions above 32 chn we should talk

 

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

so if you buy the hard drive independently your liable if the hard drive fails

hik promote actively dvr nvr without hard drive

big headaches coming

hard drives were never designed for this hammering

domestic with motion detection minimal 

corporate big use !!!!

Avatar
Jared Beagley
Dec 15, 2017
Seagate Technology

Not all hard drives were designed/engineered for the same use. We do have a line of hard drives specifically engineered for intensive write-heavy, low read surveillance-minded usage like CCTV, DVR, NVR, and have recently expanded that line to include engineering for for more AI streams/channels as well. We call it the SkyHawk & SkyHawk AI. The SkyHawk AI has a 2,000,000 hour MTBF rating, rated for up to 550TB per year, supports 16+ bay NVR systems, and built-in RV (Rotational Vibration) sensors, and comes with a 5 year warranty with 2 free years of rescue services.

Avatar
Chris Bentley
Dec 15, 2017
Cop Security

Mick is quite right about this if two things happen.

1. Recorders are sold without a HDD fitted, and the customer fits there own.

2. Resellers fit drives that are not specifically designed for surveillance use.

This often results in desktop HDD's being used and to put it simply they are not fit for purpose.

However to use high quality, surveillance optimised drives carries a cost some are simply not prepared to pay for.

(1)
Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

but your in a niche market sector charging a premium price

this isnt the volume part of the cctv industry

you manage your risk which is different to some

i still think hik/dahua opaque pricing will give margin pressue

 

Avatar
Sean Nelson
Nov 07, 2017
Nelly's Security

5 year warranty is phenomenal, great for Hikvision to offer this and baffle the skeptics. With that being said, i dont think I could offer a 5 year warranty to my customers even if Hikvision offered us 5 years (which they dont by the way).

As Mick pointed out, that is a long time for a hard drive to last and there will be totally new product lines by that time as 5 years is an eternity in any type of technology business so you will be left scrambling to find a way to find a replacement. 

I have no doubt Hik would honor this warranty, but RMA is still expensive regardless if you get a free replacement. From a distributors standpoint, there are shipping costs involved. From an integrators standpoint, their are travel and labor costs involved. Are you going to ask your customer to pay your labor costs to replace a DVR under warranty?

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 07, 2017

Just to clarify - we bolt in our own Seagates, so HIK don’t cover that - in common with the rest of the industry.

I have no idea what regional variances there are in terms of warranty or indeed distributor arrangements - I am only speaking from the UK perspective.

As I mentioned before, the customers pays for the maintenance contract on the basis of call outs and labour being chargeable, along with the standard exclusions. If they stay with us after the first year, we honour the materials warranty of the HIK equipment, but still charge labour and callout. For the customer - no HIK parts charges for 5 years is quite attractive. The maths do add up in retaining a customer for 5 years.

Avatar
Sean Nelson
Nov 07, 2017
Nelly's Security

yeah as an integrator the maintenance contract is always a good idea.

as distributors, we cant get away with that unfortunately. Shipping costs on RMA's is what eats us up. You have to pay for return shipping, and pay for the shipping back. Not to mention the original shipping we may have paid free for orders over a certain amount. The real doozy is when you find out the product that was sent back is perfectly fine, was perhaps a user error issue, even in those cases you cant ask the customer to pay up on shipping, they get bent out of shape if so. RMA's are costly 


UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 07, 2017

Interestingly, while I was at Napco, the international policy for Spain and some others was to cash in any warranty for % discount. No worries at all!

For the UK, it wasn’t even worth testing the returns - they just went into the skip.

But I do agree, RMA procedures can be costly and time consuming - but can make the difference when comparing distribution and manufacturing partners.

And yes, the problem of engineers returning equipment that isn’t faulty is an industry wide problem. I always asked distributors to let me know personally when this was the case. In most instances the engineers hadn’t even sought tech support, so I encourage distributors to only initiate RMAs after tech support has been sought. There are some exceptions - but it’s not a bad way forward.

Avatar
Mick Brown
Nov 07, 2017

Hopefully doesn’t check the online price of the equipment 

Avatar
Chris Bentley
Nov 08, 2017
Cop Security

We have been offering 3 year warranty and a "real" advance replacement service to all our customers for the last 12 months.

Before that we operated a 12 month advance replacement service for over 10 years.

No additional charge.

Free delivery and collection. 

No invoices and credit notes etc.

If done properly it works for everyone no problem.

(1)
New discussion

Ask questions and get answers to your physical security questions from IPVM team members and fellow subscribers.

Newest discussions