HiDef Tech Is An OEM From a California Integrator

I recently received a response from an integrator that included cameras manufactured by HiDef Technology. I had never heard of this company and found no 'hits' on IPVM with respect to the company or its products.

Has anyone had any experience with them?


I can tell you that based on pictures and the text of those specs, these are a Dahua OEM. I believe that specific model is one of Dahua's higher end true WDR models. We haven't tested it, but we have tests of other Dahua models (including the HF3101, a true WDR box camera).

So Ethan's commented on the tech side, I will give the business side.

It looks like a small shop owned by a small integrator. Whois.net reports the 'HiDefTech' website is owned by a "David Sindaha" (here is his LinkedIn profile) who works at VAS Security.

The integrator here wouldn't happen to be VAS Security? :)

What a surprise. The integrator is indeed VAS Security. I guess that's one way to keep your camera costs down.

Lol, you just made my day :)

Can you do me a favor? Don't tell VAS you know, just ask them to tell you more about HiDef Tech? :) I am seriously curious if they tell the truth or if they try to claim HiDef Tech is a real manufacturer.

Sherman, while you have VAS on the line, make sure and have a co-worker ring up HiDef Tech. Wait to be put on hold...

Be creative. ;)

Say what you will about David SinDahua, the man is a genius at part-number schemes.

HDT-NC-D3MZVDIR

Without blinking an eye, I would say it reads:

HiDefTech Network Camera Dome 3MP Zoom Vandal Wide Dynamic Range InfraRed

Perhaps Hik would be interested in OEMing just the part-numbers from HDT...

I'm pretty up to speed on the IP camera market. I was surprised to hear of this new manufacturer and asked the rep some of those very questions. As I recall, things got a little hazy when I pressed about where the cameras were manufactured. Definitely did NOT claim the cameras were Dahua.

That said, the integrator is making some inroads into the SF Bay Area public sector market. Everything is 3 bids or RFP and they have a pricing advantage with their OEM play. It would have been a bit more transparent to sell them as VAS Cams or similar ;)

It would have been a bit more transparent to sell them as VAS Cams or similar ;)

Perhaps too transparent? VAS cam = VA Scam

This is a Dahua OEM for sure, as already stated. The practice is somewhat common. Private labeling your cameras is a reasonable thing to do. If you have a savvy client, and they ask who really makes it, you can be proud to say Dahua. If they aren't savvy, they might think you are inventive finding a value brand that they haven't seen before. It's a win/win to me.

It's a win/win to me.

BTW, this statement, sounds wicked illegal.

All of our dealers sign an agreement to never sale HiDef Tech products for less than the MSRP. This means we will not be under sold!! As a dealer this is a HUGE advantage over competition and keeps your customers satisfied!!

IMHO.

Keep your customers satisfied with price fixing!

"All of our dealers sign an agreement"

Not if 'all of your dealers' are one integrator.

Question: How does the CEO of HiDef Tech talk to the CEO of VAS Security?

Answer: He talks to himself.

It also sounds wicked impossible.

While it would be a utopia to always be able to charge MSRP for things, we all know that is never practical or possible. There is ALWAYS a cheaper bid or a customer who insists on a discount. No manufacturer is going to get to scale expecting dealers to sign a binder that they will NEVER charge less than MSRP.

Sure, if this was a real manufacturers with multiple dealers...

Though I doubt he would turn away someone wanting to be the second one.

If a integrator member would be willing indulge the HiDef fantasy by requesting the necessary sign-up forms that might be interesting...

Setting Minimum sales price is a state by state issue after Leegin. In most cases if you have an open channel or even a tiered channel then you can not specify the transaction price, only the price you can advertise at. This is also questionable legally as it can very wildly on what is part of a sales transaction and what is just marketing. Most MAP program wont hold up and are not enforceable. A brand owner can do things to help manage the level of price erosion, but this can be time consuming and will come at a slght hit to volume and product discoverablity.

One thing to also consider is that if the products are being sold into the public sector and there is price maintance like this, then the bidder is opening themselves up to a world of hurt for being a part of bid rigging. We had a vendor trying to do this for their products here in NY. We brought it up to the State Attorney Generals office after the vendor wouldnt change it when we were selling to State police. Lets just say after that the policies changed quickly.

Channel management in terms of pricing and access is a huge issue. I had an integrator contact us this week about white labeling NVR servers into distribution and even though they had made progress into the channel, it was a logistics nightmare and a possible money sink as they didnt have the resources, or the experience to know which path to take, or which questions to ask to get the information they needed to make the program work. Creating an OEM brand in house seems at first a good way to stop people shopping line items, but in the end can cause backlash as most efforts fail and customers get soured on the experience. Plus I cant see any competing integrators wanting to carry a brand that is controlled by a competitor.

Btw, in case they try to hide the website connection between the two, here is a screencap of HiDef Tech's domain ownership as of today:

It's a common practice to use original equipment manufacturers and gaining an advantage is just normal business.

The fact that they don't want to tell you where the cameras are made is part of the value that they bring by not disclosing all of their sources.

Nothing more work here than that.

"The fact that they don't want to tell you where the cameras are made is part of the value that they bring by not disclosing all of their sources."

Wow, that's one of the most cynical explanations I've ever head!

I agree with you that it is a common practice. I do not believe it is very ethical or conducive to healthy business relationships.

I just am having trouble finding ANYTHING wrong with this scenario. I'm sure he is far from the only integrator that private labels Dahua under a different name than their integration firm. Where does the outrage come from?

Where is your lack of outrage come from?

All this is a trick. You take something, wrap it up and claim it is something else. Straight deception.

John,

How would you sell it ?

You imported,wrap put your company name on product

Customer asking you who is Manufacturer

You answer ?

Thank you

I would not 'wrap put your company name on product'.

I would represent it as it is in the first place so the customer would know up front and without question it is Dahua, Hikvision, Longse, whatever.

But majority companies do this all the time

Are all of them wrong ?

The majority of companies do not do this all the time.

But, yes, regardless of whether 1 or all do it, I still believe it is deceptive and should not be done.

Q-See

Swann

Flir

ICRealtime

etc

They all private label Dahua products. How is this different?

Agree,

and I can add few more

Agree, with you Jon about the labeling.

But do you condone the creation of multiple companies, which are apparently seperate concerns, but really exist so that one can vouch for the other?

For instance, if you try to sell me a Dillabaugh Dome, and say they're great, I can take it with a grain of salt.

On the other when you say you like "Sony, Panasonic, Hidef Tech and Axis cameras. But Hi-tech's really been coming out with some winners lately", it's harder to spot.

Here's a real world example. Sean Nelson has a company called Nelly's Surplus and he has his own private brand of cameras called Eyesurv. To my knowledge you can only buy Eyesurv through Nelly's, so does that equate Sean to VAS/Hitech?

Good one Jon !

How about ask Bosch who makes their camera

...you can only buy Eyesurv through Nelly's, so does that equate Sean to VAS/Hitech?

No, not in my book. Nelly is not trying to act like Eyesurv is an independent camera vendor.

Nelly's is proud of their private label:

The EYEsurv brand is Nelly's Surplus' private label surveillance product brand. You will begin to see more EYEsurv products as we continue to bring in new product lines. We stand behind and believe in these products and that is why we are offering a 1 year warranty against any defective or malfunctioning issue that you may have.

and people associate Nelly's with Eyesurv:

At any rate, we have been using the EYEsurv brand name for so long that we have decided to kind of stick with it as thats what most of our long time customers are used to, but most folks do know now that its Dahua.

I would be interested in Sean's opinion of HiTech, although he clearly has taken the high road.

BTW, I think the best argument FOR HiTech would be to say that it's not much different than a integrator always pushing only its main line as if it's always the best solution, regardless.

And I do agree it's similar situation...

You ought to ask for the first six digits of the camera's MAC address (aka the OUI*) so you can "confirm compatibility with your VMS" or for some other reason.

If it's C:11:BF or 90:02:A9, otherwise known as ZHEJIANG DAHUA TECHNOLOGY CO.,LTD, then Hi-Def Tech is not trying too hard to hide the true maker. As of today, a WireShark OUI Lookup for "HiDef Technology" or variations of the same gives 'results not found'.

*thanks IPVM Certification class :-)

I think there are right ways of doing this and wrong ways, but the gist is this: hiding your OEM is pointless. It just means someone has to take longer to figure it out, and the will figure it out.

Be up front about it when asked. "We private label ______ cameras because we think they offer the best price/performance ratio. We've hand picked select models from their line as the cameras we choose to work with because we feel they're the best of the best and narrowing the selections allows us to provide the best pricing on these models and ensures our techs know them inside and out."

There. Feel free to use that, guys. There's an additional element with Dahua because they aren't sold in North America directly. So this is one way to access them.

I believe that HiDef Tech is acting unethically, but not for the rebranding obfuscation.

I agree with Jon D. that being unforthcoming about the true source of product is widely seen and accepted. I don't see anything telling me I when buying a rebrand on Q-See's or Aventura's or FLIR's site for instance.

Moreover, needing to reveal ones true source, but only if asked directly, seems a bit odd. Kind of like asking an undercover officer 'Are you a cop?'.

But I think the thing that distinguishes this from those is the questionable use of two apparently seperate entities in support of each other.

VAS acting as though Hidef is just a manufacturer that they resell makes both companies seem more legit and larger than if the truth was known. Just like setting up a web network of various companies endorsing each other, but without disclosing that they are just one entity.

IMHO, this is the real fraud...

My response to this debate: Mega-OEMs vs Micro-Relabelers