Subscriber Discussion

Help With 8 Camera Project For "Stubborn" Customer

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Sep 28, 2016

Hello, 

I am starting an 8 camera project for a stubborn "know it all" customer, and would be greatful for any fellow integrator suggestions. 

I have done a lot of work for this customer in the past (mostly PC/Mac as well as Network and AV installations). Now he wants an 8 camera setup for his home (is also home based business), with 3 exterior network cameras, and 5 interior cameras.

Not a big deal until he said, "I don't want you snaking wires, and drilling holes etc, can't you just use some small wireless cameras that plug into outlets?"  I tried to explain some of the issues that his requests would create (reliability, easily unplugged etc), but when you question this customer, he generally pushes back harder. I've managed to convince this customer to bend a little, and allow some wired POE cameras, but I still face some challenges.

He wants remote viewing capabilities for all 8 cameras, so secondary lower bitrate stream capabilities are necessary, with higher quality streams recorded locally on NVR/NAS. Max upstream of his ISP averages around 12mbps. 

I've installed quite a few Axis cameras in the past, and was originally considering a (Zipstream) setup, but am interested in what other integrators may suggest, especially for the wireless cameras, since I usually try to steer away from them. 

The one positive is that this customer is reasonable when considering cost factors, as long as it is reliable. 

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or comments. 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Sep 28, 2016

So, at each exterior location, you'll have a 120V receptacle? Who will install that? Will the surveillance system be supported with a UPS? If so, how would the wireless cameras be powered during a power failure?

Someone will need to run wire, whether it is for 120V or POE.

(1)
JH
John Honovich
Sep 28, 2016
IPVM

Max upstream of his ISP averages around 12mbps.

Especially with Zipstream, I do not think bandwidth will be a problem even if he viewed all 8 streams at full resolution at once (which is unlikely).

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Sep 28, 2016

"So, at each exterior location, you'll have a 120V receptacle? Who will install that? Will the surveillance system be supported with a UPS? If so, how would the wireless cameras be powered during a power failure?"

Ironically, there are already weatherproof 120v receptacles on the underside of the eaves, in the potential exterior camera locations. Additionally, the customer has a custom 400 Amp service at the home, with a massive backup generator that powers the (eave) receptacles during power outages.

Thank you for your comments, as I should have clarified those points in my original post.

MC
Marty Calhoun
Sep 28, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Ask yourself a question?

Do I really need this guy?

(5)
Avatar
Keith Walker
Sep 29, 2016

"Ask yourself a question?

Do I really need this guy?"

YES, that!!! He's not going to become an easier to deal with once it's installed.

(5)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Sep 29, 2016

The answer is "No", I really don't need this guy, but I knew this from the beginning.

The other side of the coin is that this guy really needs me. I have fixed every mistake that previous contractors have made, whether it was "installer error", or that the customer pushed the contractor out, based on not being able to cope with customer personality.

This customer trusts me, and even though it is not a perfect scenario, I will find a way to solve his issues in this case. I just thought I pick the brains of other integrators with a similar situation/request that decided to "stay the course" , vs walk from the customer.

Thanks for your suggestions to cut the customer out nonetheless.

U
Undisclosed #3
Sep 29, 2016

Marty and Keith,

You only work for pleasant customers?

(3)
U
Undisclosed #3
Sep 29, 2016

Note that the OP has stated that he has done a lot of work for this customer in the past... so it's not a 'new' thing.

NEW customers should be vetted based on the annoyance factor to dollars produced equation - but it sounds like the OP can handle the guy.

(1)
MC
Marty Calhoun
Sep 29, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Not at all. That is a pipe dream.

I personally strive to establish at a first meeting an atmosphere of mutual trust and understanding that We (my company) has the experience and knowledge that you (the customer) is obviously seeking by calling us out to plan, design or engineer a video system. Therefore, please assume we are the subject matter experts and will offer you (the customer) to the best of our ability, recommendations, estimates or proposals that will provide the services you request.

In short form, stay out of the way, we got it.

In a professional manner, when I leave a first meeting I would like to think they (the Customer) accepts that we will look out for their best interests and we have established a reasonable and honest working relationship and environment of mutual trust.

Avatar
Keith Walker
Sep 30, 2016

As a rule, I shy away from unreasonable customers. It's up to the OP to decide if he's unreasonable. I was just agreeing with Marty that it's worth asking if this guy is worth it.

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Sep 29, 2016

I have a customer like yours, but mine likes to pay for the best and appreciates my work.

In your case, if he insists on wireless, I would get the "cube" cameras that have integrated wifi and the option to plug into POE later. Tell him that theres the possibility the cams may get unplugged or not be reliable and that later on he may have to pay to have you hard wire them in. Theres probably an outdoor equivilent.

But if you get him to go POE, just a cheap hikvision/lts nvr with integrated poe and 8 cameras or whatever

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Sep 29, 2016

I have had uneducated customers with similar requests and I usually "just say no" to wireless.

But I am curious if anyone has had success with this setup and if so, what product is used

Avatar
Ethan Ace
Sep 29, 2016

I've been using wireless cameras at home for years. I've never had much problem at all with the wireless side of things.

I've used Axis, D-Link, and Hikvision. As well as some of the consumer brands, like Nest or Canary. Only Canary has given issues, and I think that's more the fault of the wireless router than the camera.

(1)
Avatar
Armando Perez
Sep 30, 2016
Hoosier Security and Security Owners Group • IPVMU Certified

Ethan is hardly the standard end-user.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #6
Oct 03, 2016

I have heard the Axis Companion line is adding a couple wireless cameras in the 4th quarter. Small system, almost designed for simplistic home surveillance.

MM
Michael Miller
Oct 03, 2016

Ok I will admit it we did one "wireless" camera project for a customer that insisted that we use wireless. So far it is working well but it was a PITA to setup. We used a Hikvision 8 channel NVR with 8 total Hikvision Cube and Dome cameras with one Ruckus Wireless AP. The building was north of 3000 sq ft with cameras on all three floors inside and outside. Customer wanted to be able to move the cube cameras anywhere he pleased inside the building. It works better than I thought it would but I will not be offering this as a solution.

(2)
RS
Robert Shih
Oct 03, 2016
Independent

TBH, my favorite scare tactic would be to have a modified cell phone that can take a NetHunter build and then show them just how easy it is for me to knock out their cameras from the network, even without knowing their password. And this is just using immediate proximity tricks. Imagine having a dish antenna enhanced setup and producing an interference pattern.

Cybersecurity is a big deal, especially when it relates to physical security. The fewer wireless IoT devices you incorporate for security, the better.

(4)
MM
Michael Miller
Oct 05, 2016

I have a OnePlus One laying around I can repurpose. Thanks for the info.

Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Oct 03, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

Imagine you had a UBNT Rocket with a PowerBeam antenna...

You could disable the cameras from a far distance and never be seen entering.

U
Undisclosed #8
Oct 04, 2016
IPVMU Certified

You could disable the cameras from a far distance and never be seen entering.

How far a distance, without line of site?

The indoor cameras as well, no picture at all ever?

Keep the thing running in your car while you find a way in?

What about when the router switches channels to whatever channel you are not using?

NVR is still working with wired LAN/WAN, so I imagine you are not concerned about video loss alert notification.

Does this stuff actually happen or is this just WiFud?

Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Oct 04, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

Yes, I'm pretty sure I could knock any camera offline with a deauth packet from a great distance.

http://www.consumerreports.org/online-security/lab-report-wi-fi-cameras-can-be-knocked-off-your-network/

U
Undisclosed #8
Oct 04, 2016
IPVMU Certified

"Yes, I'm pretty sure I could knock any camera offline with a deauth packet from a great distance."

What's the wager exactly?

I'll be using this pathetic looking D-Link camera, with its equally pathetic matching wifi D-Link router, .

Check out Protected Management Frames in 802.11ac and if not dissuaded then let me know so I can send them to you.

Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Oct 04, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

Was assuming 2.4ghz non-ac, as I wasn't aware of any AC based cams

U
Undisclosed #8
Oct 04, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Now that you are, I'm sure you are revising your position on wireless cameras.

You're not??? Maybe thats because deauth packets weren't your real objection anyway.

Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Oct 04, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

Then in that case, I will simply bring one of these:

http://www.jammer-store.com/spec5-5ghz-wifi-jammer.html

U
Undisclosed #8
Oct 04, 2016
IPVMU Certified

In that case, I'll bring this for any wired cams.

with some red, white and blue pellets.

(1)
Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Oct 04, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

What about those Protected Managment Frames?

U
Undisclosed #8
Oct 04, 2016
IPVMU Certified

?

RS
Robert Shih
Oct 04, 2016
Independent

Ya'll are so cute. http://hakshop.myshopify.com/products/wifi-pineapple

Avatar
Brian Karas
Oct 04, 2016
IPVM

I have the previous generation pineapple. Highly recommend it if you want to play around with wifi testing, etc.

(1)
MM
Michael Miller
Oct 04, 2016

What about when the router switches channels to whatever channel you are not using?

That's why you jam all channels simultaneously.

U
Undisclosed #8
Oct 04, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Please keep the power down, I have neighbors, you know.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #7
Oct 04, 2016

Once, a long long time ago ... I had a customer that did not want me to install Cat 5 cabling throughout his 10,000 sq ft new house because he believed wireless was the way to go.

I really sold the value of installing lot's of Cat 5 into every room, every tv location, etc... I explained in detail how limited wireless was, and how there were very few wireless devices. I argued that wireless was very slow compared to wired. I was sure to let him know that if he did not install the Cat 5 while the house was being built, he was really going to miss out.

He gave in and let me install the Cat 5 because I was the expert.

He and I now both laugh about the 5+ miles of Cat 5 installed throughout his awesome home. We walk from room to room pointing at all the empty Cat 5 jacks. Laptops, printers, even the Roku's ... all wireless. Ironically enough we never considered running Cat 5 to logical AP locations so we had to fish that wire years later.

Yes, we are the experts, and as such we need to consider how we navigate customers desires. Our way may be the most functional, but customers like this are what push the envelope and take us as an industry to new places.

I also use Hikvision wireless cameras in my home without issue. But I am special because I am an expert and know what I am doing. LOL Now, if I could only figure out how all my private papers on my desk keep getting released on the internet. Probably need to buy some more Hik cameras and see if I can catch whoever is doing that.

(1)
TD
Thom Dyson
Oct 04, 2016

If power is close to the cameras, take a look at Ethernet over power. It has limitations, but can be surprisingly useful.

U
Undisclosed #9
Oct 05, 2016

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Avatar
Brian Rhodes
Oct 05, 2016
IPVMU Certified

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