Subscriber Discussion

Hikvision USA 10th Anniversay Sale Up To 50% Off!

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Oct 12, 2018

Hikvision's biggest sale of the year! Contact your local authorized Hikvision distributor for details. Promo valid from 10/15/18 to 11/30/18.

[IPVM Note: This sale is being run on Hikvision's website, Twitter and LinkedIn. Details and discussion inside.]

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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 12, 2018

It's almost like they have a large inventory of product and a collapsed pipeline.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Oct 12, 2018

HikVision BlowOut Sale! - Get on the BANdwagon!!!

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 12, 2018
IPVM

10th anniversary of what? I am just not clear what they are specifically celebrating?

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 12, 2018
IPVM

Holy cow! They are running this promotion on Twitter. I am stunned, even for Hikvision. (1) What manufacturer runs 50% off sales? (2) And then takes it to Twitter?

 

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 12, 2018
IPVM

This gets even stranger. It is on their (USA) website homepage:

The homepage does link to a PDF download with more information on models included:

This is strange. Though if you can't sell to the high end...

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Oct 12, 2018

Chance of a soon to be communicated message?:  "Goodbye USA."

JH
John Honovich
Oct 12, 2018
IPVM

I did not want to make the 'going out of business sale' joke and I don't think they will flat out leave the USA but running a sale like this is not a confidence booster.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Oct 12, 2018

I didn't mean it as a joke. This is quite alarming though. If sanctions occurred this would all be dead inventory?

JH
John Honovich
Oct 12, 2018
IPVM

My understanding is there are roughly 2 types of sanctions:

(1) Blocking US people / companies selling to a sanctioned company

(2) Blocking the sanctioned company from operating in the US

In scenario #1, that would likely impact Ambarella, Nvidia, Intel, etc. but the inventory would be fine.

In scenario #2, the inventory would be dead (i.e., Hikvision cannot sell it). But even for scenario #2, if an integrator had Hikvison inventory, I don't think (though I don't know) it would ban the integrator from re-selling that inventory to an end user.

JH
John Honovich
Oct 12, 2018
IPVM

And they posted it to LinkedIn too:

Anyone with any theories about why they would take such a public approach vs having their salespeople just market directly to dealers?

 

U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 12, 2018

Anyone with any theories about why they would take such a public approach vs having their salespeople just market directly to dealers?

They recently hired some ex-Dahua marketing people?

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Oct 13, 2018

Saw this yesterday and got in contact with out local sales rep... He didn't even know the sales was going on until I forwarded them the banner. Not a good sign at all.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Oct 14, 2018

Saw this yesterday and got in contact with out local sales rep... He didn't even know the sales was going on until I forwarded them the banner. Not a good sign at all.

It's also possible this is a really bad sales person who does not check their email.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 14, 2018

 

It's also possible this is a really bad sales person who does not check their email.

They've probably been busy updating their resume and scheduling job interviews.

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 14, 2018
IPVM

A very common thing I hear from manufacturer execs recently is how many Hikvision USA employee resumes they are getting (which, from the perspective of Hikvision employees, is perfectly sensible).

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 16, 2018

While I agree this can make sense I am curious about the validity of these claims.

If it's in your interest to further discredit Hik, it would be good to to feed these stories to the market.

I could simply state the complete opposite:
A very common thing I hear from Hikvision is how many employees from other companies send their resumes to Hikvision in order to get on board the Hik train.

 

JH
John Honovich
Oct 16, 2018
IPVM

I could simply state the complete opposite:
A very common thing I hear from Hikvision is how many employees from other companies send their resumes to Hikvision in order to get on board the Hik train.

Could be in Europe, I specifically said Hikvision USA. And if you look at Hikvision USA's hiring in the last 2 years, they have really struggled to get senior industry people to join them, despite offering far more money.

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Avatar
Michael Fleming
Oct 16, 2018

From someone who has exposure to the secondary market I have been waiting to see how this all fell out. Not only do you have the surplus new inventory in the pipeline, you also have a thousands of "pulls" where while those cameras do not "fit" into the current installation they are still perfectly good cameras. I expect them all to be replaced with something else. Maybe not any better but with less security concerns. The marketing of these devices this way is a sign that the manufacturer realizes the value or cost of their inventory and attempting to get what money they can while they can. They also have to realize that as soon as cameras start getting replaced there will be a large surplus on the secondary market that will further drive down prices. While larger commercial and Govt will not buy any more, the Joe who wants his mailbox and backyard shots do not really care if the Chinese are watching or not and will snatch up highly discounted products as the opportunity arises. I am wating to see if they require a trade-in for some type of discount or rebate to stop the excess inventory from going to the market to protect their pricing structure and brand name. Time will tell.   

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Avatar
Sean Nelson
Oct 16, 2018
Nelly's Security

Anyone with any theories about why they would take such a public approach vs having their salespeople just market directly to dealers?

 

uhhh, because with marketing, you want to reach as many people as possible. 

As far as looking bad, that is only from the Hikua hater point of view. Hikvision could poop a gold camera and Hikua haters would criticize it.

Non-Hikua haters will be salivating over this.

Probably just clearing out old stock.

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 16, 2018
IPVM

uhhh, because with marketing, you want to reach as many people as possible.

All press is good press? You are the same guy who used to argue that IPVM coverage of Hikvision was positive for Hikvision...

With marketing, you want to reach the most appropriate people while avoiding one's marketing creating negative issues amongst others. For example, Hikvision touts its Chinese government allegiance inside of China but not outside, for obvious reasons.

Likewise, if you want to clear out old stock and you do not want the broader market to think your products are cheap, you do it quietly. You don't blast it over the Internet. And Nelly's is different than Hikvision. Hikvision has aspirations of being a premier / enterprise provider, and those types of companies don't blast 50% off sales across the Internet.

 

Avatar
Sean Nelson
Oct 16, 2018
Nelly's Security

Hik Sales Strategies baffling the critics once again.

However, its not much different than what you sometimes do

Basically, its the same concept as when you pay for facebook advertising to your "free to the public" Hiktroversy articles. You try to bring on new custy's with something attention grabbing. Some would argue that you damaging your reputation by appearing to be a tabloid type report site, but nonetheless, it brings on new custys.

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 16, 2018
IPVM

your "free to the public" Hiktroversy articles

Like Evidence Of Hikvision's Involvement With Xinjiang IJOP And Re-Education Camps or Dahua and Hikvision Win Over $1 Billion In Government-Backed Projects In Xinjiang

These articles are public to expose this information to key influencers in the media and the government. I am sure we are damaging our reputation to certain segments but the overarching goal is to have an impact on the industry, not to win or lose 'custy's'.

BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 16, 2018

It's subjective journalism at best, because you choose the politically spicy stories but ignore the local stories that will get more backlash.

It's a choice you are free to make, but you are not an independent journalism platform. Saying your overarching goal is to have an impact doesn't line up with the subject matter you choose.

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: IPVM Is Subjective Journalism At Best, Because You Choose The Politically Spicy Stories But Ignore The Local Stories That Will Get More Backlash.

BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 16, 2018

And Nelly's is different than Hikvision. Hikvision has aspirations of being a premier / enterprise provider

Well that's a slap in the face of your MVC!

JH
John Honovich
Oct 16, 2018
IPVM

a slap in the face

Nelly's provides quality service to budget focused customers. That's their thing. There is nothing wrong with that but it's a different model than Hikvision. The type of marketing that might be productive for one type of business is not for another. 

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 16, 2018

If Sean's company is not aiming to premier, it's aiming for the opposite. I wouldn't call that a compliment.

JH
John Honovich
Oct 16, 2018
IPVM

I said, "premier / enterprise provider", Nelly's is not and is not aiming to be that. You can try to hype yourself into thinking I am insulting Sean if that makes you feel better.

BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 16, 2018

My happiness doesn't depend on you John :).

I sincerely hope yours doesn't depend on me either (but I am sure it doesn't).

U
Undisclosed #5
Oct 16, 2018
IPVMU Certified

10th anniversary of what? I am just not clear what they are specifically celebrating?

10 yrs of blowout sales?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Oct 12, 2018

We have never used their access control items, but I would be far more concerned about biometric readers from China than I am a camera.  Does anyone know if those were banned or not?  Avigilon isn't in the access control market which explains why none of our honorable elected leaders care about the same Chinese company recording American fingerprints.

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 12, 2018
IPVM

Avigilon isn't in the access control market which explains why none of our honorable elected leaders care about the same Chinese company recording American fingerprints.

Funniest comment of the day.

Two things: (1) Avigilon IS IN the access control market, e.g., Avigilon Access Control Tested (2) The Avigilon Hikua ban conspiracy theory is incredible.

Serious question: Has anyone related to Hikua mentioned that to you or how did you come to that?

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Oct 12, 2018

I stand corrected, Avigilon is in the access control market!  Our "rep" has never told us about their AC products because we never do AC.  I can tell you, regardless of who the manufacturer is, I wouldn't trust any Internet connected fingerprint reader from China or anywhere.

They need to put that fingerprint reader on the banned list from government sites ASAP.  Of course if they don't sell any of them then no point banning them.  I hope the same fools who install IP cameras without solid IDS on their networks aren't installing those access control items as well.  

Surely there are security flaws on those fingerprint readers right?

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U
Undisclosed #5
Oct 14, 2018
IPVMU Certified

(2) The Avigilon Hikua ban conspiracy theory is incredible.

What’s the theory, Avigilon is somehow controlled by the Chinese?

JH
John Honovich
Oct 14, 2018
IPVM

The theory is that Avigilon, via Motorola, got Hikua banned, e.g., discussed here.

BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 12, 2018

Strange to share this add on a public space like Twitter. This should be a deal for dealer not end users right?

Looking at the models, we sold these at Black Friday last year and they were old at that time already.

This looks more like cleaning old stock

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SD
Shannon Davis
Oct 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

This has all the earmarks of a furniture sale going out of business...

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 13, 2018

Looking at the models, it’s an old stock sale. If the items were newer I would agree.

JH
John Honovich
Oct 13, 2018
IPVM

Can anyone explain why Dahua and Hikvision have so many 'old stock' / clearance sales? Is this a genuinely good business strategy? Why repeatedly overbuild and then need to drop prices heavy?

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 13, 2018

Well that's an easy one. Neither of them wants to be last when it comes to novelties and new techniques. So where another manufacturer would wait for stock to drop before releasing new items, Dahua and Hik release items regardless of stock. That makes productions runs harder too. So overstock for both brands happens a lot.

I saw a DS-2CD2332-I in the list. We have sold the 2332WD-I, 2335FWD-I and now for a while we don't sell 3MP and sell the 2345FWD-I.

 

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 13, 2018
IPVM

So where another manufacturer would wait for stock to drop before releasing new items

No, more typically manufacturers would simply not build so many units to start. Forecasting demand accurately is a pretty central component of well-run businesses.

Let me ask you: Why doesn't Hikua simply better forecast demand, thereby avoiding having overstock 'happens a lot'?

BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 13, 2018

Why doesn't Hikua simply better forecast demand, thereby avoiding having overstock 'happens a lot'?

I answered that already:

Neither of them wants to be last when it comes to novelties and new techniques. So where another manufacturer would wait for stock to drop before releasing new items, Dahua and Hik release items regardless of stock.

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 13, 2018
IPVM

No, you didn't. If you forecast accurately, you do not need to wait for 'stock to drop'. You wouldn't have that much extra stock in the first place to worry about.

You are a distributor. Tell me. Do you have no idea how to forecast? Do you over and over buy far more stock than you can sell? Are you forced to slash your prices to clear out that stock month after month? 

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 13, 2018

Do you have no idea how to forecast? Do you over and over buy far more stock than you can sell?

Thanks for insult John. Not needed.

I am saying Hik produces new techniques faster then they can clear stock. They release it because they don't want Dahua to announce it first. Wethers it's ultra low light, 4K over coax, you name it.

If Dahua can do it, produce new stuff even though you are still running production on older stuff. Switch the names of Hik and Dahua and the same is true. It has nothing to do with distributors. That's why Hik is pushing the sale and not ADI or another distri. Hik is pushing their stock out.

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 13, 2018
IPVM

I am saying Hik produces new techniques faster then they can clear stock

Let's assume that is the case, but why? Is it because Hikvision does not know what 'new techniques' are coming up? Is this a failure in R&D to communicate what is coming 6 months or a year down the line?

I know you find it insulting, but I hope we would agree that good businesses, as a normal matter of course, can forecast demand reasonably well and have an understanding of what 'new techniques' are going to be ready 6 months or a year from now.

As you admit, "overstock for both brands happens a lot", which still begs the question of why they cannot adjust product appropriately to the 'new techniques' that they are developing?

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 13, 2018

Let's assume that is the case, but why? Is it because Hikvision does not know what 'new techniques' are coming up?

 

I am repeating myself here, this will be my last attempt at it.
They know what's coming up and what they are making. Their worst fear is that Dahua makes it first. That fear is bigger than the rational thought of managing the volume of the stock.

 

I know you find it insulting

That is my reason for stopping this conversation. I could handle it like you would and start mailing with statement like 'you have been made aware' and things like that. If you actively insult by choice, that's the moment I leave the conversation.

 

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 13, 2018
IPVM

Their worst fear is that Dahua makes it first. That fear is bigger than the rational thought of managing the volume of the stock.

So your theory, as a Hikvision partner, is that Hikvision is irrational? Fascinating.

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U
Undisclosed #6
Oct 14, 2018

When you grow year on year and crush the market for so long, there is no reason to forecast. Hikua know everything will be sold.what they don't sell in the USA they will sell in Sri Lanka or somewhere else.

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 14, 2018
IPVM

#6, are you mocking Hikvision or being serious? I can't tell.

To say 'there is no reason to forecast' sounds like a parody but maybe not?

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SD
Shannon Davis
Oct 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

How is that an insult. An insult would have said “You don’t know how to forecast, not ask if you don’t know how to forecast.” I have no real dog in this fight but I sure as hell hope that some of the people on this site don’t install fire alarm systems and if they do I hope their business strategy is much better for fire alarms than it is for CCTV. If you install a cheap fire alarm system or install it wrong, PEOPLE DIE and property is lost. In the end this is the reason we are supposed to be in this industry, not higher margins and obscene profits. 

JH
John Honovich
Oct 13, 2018
IPVM

To be clear, my questions were not meant as an insult to Jonathan.

Indeed, the underlying point I was trying to make is that I am sure Jonathan knows how to forecast. Because of that, it would seem to be reasonable that Hikvision knows how to forecast too. 

That said, I will defer to Jonathan's judgment that Hikvision acts irrationally due to their fear of Dahua.

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 13, 2018

Thank you for putting words in my mouth John. Let me be more clear, they produce more stock because they expect to sell it and move it to others market locations if needed. A more conservative approach would be to wait it out and not produce too much. Hik expects growths. Axis has stock issues every year, that’s the other end of the spectrum.

because they upgrade their product line so often, older lines with stock will stop moving, creating old stock. They move so fast to new product lines in order not to be behind. That speed of updating is not always a logical, conservative decision.

I get how great is for you to call them irrational and cherry pick my comments to get a good quote. Glad I made your weekend

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 14, 2018
IPVM

Thank you for putting words in my mouth John

You said:

Their worst fear is that Dahua makes it first. That fear is bigger than the rational thought of managing the volume of the stock. [emphasis added]

Why you think you are helping Hikvision with such a position is beyond me.

Ok so now you want to change your position be more clear:

Let me be more clear, they produce more stock because they expect to sell it and move it to others market locations if needed.

In this USA sale, which 'market location' are they moving it to and from?

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 14, 2018

Is this like your:

I know you find it insulting

Into:

To be clear, my questions were not meant as an insult to Jonathan.

 

If we're clearing up each others statements this might help.

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 14, 2018
IPVM

You said 'Thanks for insult John. Not needed.'

I responded to that statement: "I know you find it insulting".

You are twisting that into portraying that I intended to insult you, which I did not.

With your new position, in this USA sale, which 'market location' are they moving stock to and from?

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 14, 2018

This is moving in circles.

When I say something I am twisting it, when you say something you wait and see how to best explain it. That may be a game you like, I don't. I'm out.
For those with open ears and minds I have been pretty open and honest. I've been doing that for a long time now and yet a few days ago you blasted me about hiding that I work for a hik distri (while I all but hiding myself). That's the level this is sinking to. Have a good weekend John, but don't yank my chain.

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 13, 2018

Well for one John assumes he is always right and the rest of the world is wrong.

secondly he said: I know you find it insulting. 

Saying it’s  not meant as an insult to someone else a few moments later is just, well...

Our companies stock and forecast are more than fine, their great. We always sell the newest stuff and clear old stock in time.

We had a Black Friday sale last year,  no crazy sales since then. We promote and award costumer purchases as any company does.

Because we sell Hik does not make us stupid. Just like an American passport does not make you a hillbilly by default.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Oct 13, 2018

At 50% off I am sure they are still making a profit.  Probably costing them more to insure the product than it would for them to dump it.  

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BP
Bas Poiesz
Oct 13, 2018

Pure on hardware cost you might be right.

Local support, storage warehousing etc and marketing are not cheap, making the Europe or USA product more expensive then let’s say Vietnam. You need to factor in all costs. But purely on hardware, you could be right

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U
Undisclosed #5
Oct 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

An insult would have said “You don’t know how to forecast, not ask if you don’t know how to forecast.”

1) Shannon, you don’t know what a rhetorical question is.

2) Shannon, do you not know what a rhetorical question is?

Is #1 really worse than #2?

 

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SD
Shannon Davis
Oct 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Hikua and their popular OEM’s are constantly having sales. Everyday on ADI one of these are ALWAYS on sale. I had ADI quit sending me the newsletter as that is all that is ever on it anymore. ADI business is hurting because of how corporate wants the hikua products front and center. They have to sell 3 to 4 times as much to meet sales quotas as compared to other products in the past. I know the branches hate it.

If you are always putting product on sale one of two things is usually true: You have an inferior product or that sales are the only way to get people to buy your product. Everyone wants to sell a cheap product and this causes margins to go down overall. 

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Avatar
Ross Vander Klok
Oct 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I would think it is because they need to provide jobs and keep all the people in those jobs very busy. 

Same reason they (China) build brand new cities with no people to move into them.  If they don't keep the population busy and working things would go very bad for them very fast

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