Guns Now Allowed Inside Public Building (Schools, Hospitals, Libraries) Unless They Buy More Security

If you are not from US, read on for how gun crazy America is.

If you are from the US, and are gun crazy, you will enjoy this.

Kansas recently voted to "require cities and counties to make public buildings [like schools, hospitals, courthouses] accessible to people legally carrying concealed weapons."

Why, "Reasoning that more guns means greater safety." One Kansas politician argued: "The government shouldn’t be able to deny a licensed conceal-carry holder their right to provide for their own protection if the government is not willing to"

But don't worry, there is an upside for security vendors, "Guns can be banned as long as local governments pay for protections like metal detectors and security guards, ensuring the safety of those they have disarmed."

Not surprisingly, while many people in Kansas are happy, quite a few are very concerned about having to choose between legal guns in public buildings or having to find the funds to implement more security.

While this is an emotional, politically charged issue, it must be acknowledged that:

1) The best defense against a bad guy with a gun, is a GOOD guy with a gun.

2) The overwhelming majority of crimes committed with a gun, are committed with a gun that is not lawfully owned.

Whether or not you agree with private gun ownership, bad guys out there already have guns. Your choices to solve this issue run from the politically impossible (repeal of the 2nd Ammendment), the politically impalatable (illegal gun ownership does not fall evenly across US demographic groups, bringing with it politcal issues in enforcement/roundups), or the foolish (setting up zones where good guys are guaranteed to be disarmed).

I for one, feel more safe having the good guy around, who bothered to properly register a concealed-carry, that the sadistic unhinged who hasn't.

That's why we should arm school teachers too, right?

Yes. If a schoolteacher is lawfully permitted to own a firearm, and trained to use it, how is that different from having a cop in the school? No one feels unsafe with a cop in a school, right?

I would hope and presume that the average police officer has more advanced training and field experience in using guns than the average school teacher.

In all seriousness, I would not make that assumption.

Many police forces, especially with reduced budgets, have very low standards for officer firearm training and qualifications. Stories of officers in smaller towns that go their entire career without discharging their weapon are not uncommon at all. NYC in particular made the news some time ago for their poor grade for officers and firearms training IIRC.

An individual who carries a firearm for their own protection will more frequently take a strong interest in gun safety and handling and accuracy, including a good amount of private range time. Not always of course, but very common.

With no other data, the answer to "Who is safer in school with a gun, cop or teacher?" is not a clear decision.

There may be some schoolteachers who have the skills and expertise of Rambo and there may be some police officers who seem to be out of the Police Academy movies.

But, on average, it is hard to believe that the average police officer is not more skilled and experience in using firearms than the average school teacher.

Do a thought experiment. Your life is on the live and you have to pick between a statistically average schoolteacher and a police officer to defend you. Who do you pick? Will you really pick the school teacher?

By requesting a "thought experiment", realize it is just that. Based in thought and not facts.

But since you asked, my thought is what I know. I know that I regularly attend a police shooting range and know that the stray holes in the ceiling tiles are mostly from the cops and not the citizens (or 'school teachers'). I would not agree that on average, the average police officer is more skilled that the average school teacher (or other citizen). Conscientious gun owners, especially in the land of New Jersey, take this precious right so seriously that we spend a lot of time carefully practicing in the few available ranges that we have.

I would pick the school teacher.

All I could picture was:

Gator needs his gat!

I am in Utah, one of the the states that offer Concealed Carry permits. The problem that I see is that the class is a joke. I have a friend that took the class with an older lady. She was too weak to pull back the slide so the instructor would pull it back for her - she passed and got her concealed carry permit. A former boss took the class and dropped his gun - twice - he got his concealed carry permit. The class is only 4 hours long and doesn't not include actually firing a gun.The reason a teacher with a gun is different from a cop with a gun is that the cop actually has to show he/she is proficient with it.

All I want to know is, Have they got the right door knobs?

If the founding fathers wanted door knob selection to not be infringed, they would have put it in the constitution...


Need to know what qualifies as meeting the government's "standards" as well as "policies and procedures" for incorporation of metal detectors and security guards? Who will be providing oversight and authority on the use and incorporation of these standards, policies and procedures? What is the penalty for non-compliance?

I don't see how a state or local law enforcement entity can qualify and license someone to carry a gun - only to then deny to that person their constitutional rights in designated zones. That is to say, allowing for anyone to arbitrarily designate a facility as a "Gun Free Zone". One is either qualified and licensed or is unqualified and unlicensed to carry a firearm or other lethal weapon for that matter.

We all know that active shooters is an issue of precious few minutes and seconds. It requires a layered approach toward response which should include the clear message to anyone contemplating such a crime that they could be confronted by any number of armed responders within that facility. We also need to eliminate the ridiculous use of "Gun Free Zones". These are only INVITATIONS to slaughter, the most defenseless in most cases such as children, those that are unarmed.

Furthermore, I would expect if a loved one were to be harmed in a "Gun Free Zone", and it could be demonstrated that such a designation contributed to that harm, there would be legal liability for the owner of that facility.


This is what I could find from the law itself about the standards:

"Adequate security measures’’ means the use of electronic equipment and personnel at public entrances to detect and restrict the carrying of any weapons into the state or municipal building, including, but not limited to, metal detectors, metal detector wands or any other equipment used for similar purposes to ensure that weapons are not permitted to be carried into such building by members of the public. Adequate security measures for storing and securing lawfully carried weapons, including, but not limited to, the use of gun lockers or other similar storage options may be provided at public entrances."

I am not sure who is reviewing conformance to this.

As to your point about, "One is either qualified and licensed or is unqualified and unlicensed to carry a firearm or other lethal weapon for that matter." Even in the Kansas law, there do seem to be some exceptions to where firearms can be carried, even if one is qualified and licensed.

Love me some Kansas. The sad thing about "Gun Free Zone" is that it leaves law abiding citizens defenseless against criminals that can care less about the law.

The thought is that if you want a truly gun-free zone, you have to do more than just put up a sign that only the law abiding will obey, lest you create a free fire zone for a bad guy.

The government shouldn't deny me my right to self defense with a firearm unless it provides an effective substitute -- and not just a sign. Especially when I don't have a choice whether to enter such a zone.

Private entities are a different matter. Recently I met a colleague for lunch, but changed the venue at the last moment because my first choice told me with a sign that I couldn't enter with my concealed weapon. I respected their choice and we went someplace else instead. But we often don't have a choice when the building is a courthouse or other government building where we are required to do business.

"When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

...a sign that I couldn't enter with my concealed weapon.

Please Undisclosed Concealer next time just use the Gun/Hat Check like everybody else...

P.S. Word to the wise pardner: I might be a tad suspicious about any 'friend' who lured me to a new saloon where my other friends, Smith and Wesson, weren't welcome.

I think John opened a can of yummy worms :)

I am badly outnumbered.... :)

This should not surprise you. Take a look around the ISC show floor. This industry is a conservative bunch.

Yes, but I am hoping that the Europeans will rescue me tomorrow morning ;)

Good luck with that....they tend to call in the Yanks when rescuing is needed.


The interesting thing about that comment is that when goverment uses its powers to bring harm to its people (WW1, WW2), what do the people have to defend themselves with if the goverment takes their arms away?

Just saying.

And, folks, that's why we have to allow people to take guns to the public library.... wait, what?

Just taking it a bit off subject.... following the previous comment. Didnt mean to.

Oh, yeah. This thing gonna blow up big time come Monday.

Libraries are impacted by this as well. For example, the Topeka Public Library is trying to figure out what to do.

If they implement the security measures (guard + metal detector), the projected annual cost is ~$200,000 (contrast to total annual budget for the library of $12 million).

Are you all so worried about a gun fight in the library that you have to bring your pistols while studying or forcing them to spend hundreds of thousands more?

The Arapahoe High School shooter's intended victim was the librarian.

The California State University at Fullerton massacre ended in the library.

The majority of casualties at Columbine were in the library.

No one is FORCING the library to spend $200,000US on an armed guard and a metal detector; they can instead allow legally armed patrons to enter. But what about illegally armed persons? The sign never stopped them in the first place.

"There are an estimated 119,987 libraries of all kinds in the United States today."

You have a better chance of being eaten by an alligator than shot in a library, unless we encourage people to bring guns to libraries...

You have a better chance of being eaten* by an alligator than shot in a library...

Probably false :(

Average U.S. Alligator fatalities per year < 1 (Since 1970, though they are on an uptick since 2000)

One possible search of people shot in a library: shot in library gun -flu -columbine -arapahoe. > boatload

One confirmed anecdotal case: "Apparently Professor Plum killed Dr. Black in the Library, with the Revolver"

On the bright side:

Number of alligators eaten in a library: 0

Number of people shot by alligators in a library: 0

*assuming people die when eaten

Where's the boatload? Why don't you put together a list of 20 events where people where shot in a library? I think you'll be hard pressed even if you allow yourself to go back as far as Columbine which is now 15 years old.

A relevant article I came across loading the boat...

You have a better chance of being eaten by an alligator than shot in a library, unless we encourage people to bring guns to libraries...

Changed from Probably False to Definitely Unimportant

When I first saw your alligator post I thought that can't be true since

a) <25 people since 1970 reported killed by alligator, (not all of them actually eaten, but some for sure)

b) 22 people in library were shot Columbine alone

And then I spent a good 30 minutes looking for more people who were shot by guns inside libraries(note to the wise: stay away from "just outside the library" it seems like a kill zone...). I found 9 since 2010, or so that technically meet the criteria, though some were suicides and some were accidents. Case Closed? Nope.

While I was struggling to fill a boatload of examples I understood better that you were just employing rhetorical bombast and were not meant to be taken so literally, even if you 'stuck to your guns' when challenged...

It would be like saying you have more of a chance of being hit by an asteroid etc...

So, I was wrong to hold you to such a strict reading and offer my apologies.

However I still maintain that you were wrong in bluntly asserting that Undisclosed was 'Empirically False' in his assertation here while backing it up non-refuting if not downright contradictory data, which you did not deny in your reply to my challenge. Instead you just shifted the focus by then claiming "Percentage terms is what counts".

So if you are not wrong here, are you ever wrong? If you are never wrong, I apolgize again.

For sake of completeness here are the urls I found:

Yes, it was primarily a rhetorical device. That said, getting shot in a library, especially a non school one (where you have what? 4 events total), is much like getting eaten by an alligator. They are both incredibly rare events that any given person should have little to no real concern about these events happening.

And if you want some data points, here's an incomplete list of people being killed by alligators - at least 15 in the last 20 years.

Your claim about guns increasing is like me saying my income is greater than a US factory owner in the 1820s. I am sure it is, but that's a function of inflation, not me being actually wealthier. My point is that its absurd to look at total people with guns where what obviously counts is the percentage of the population with them (which has undoubtedly declined while crime has declined as well). If you can't understand, I can't help you. I am going back to focus on publishing new things, not having academic debates.

Are you just trolling now?

And if you want some data points, here's an incomplete list of people being killed by alligators - at least 15 in the last 20 years.

It's quite helpful of you to link to the same exact page I gave you...

Average U.S. Alligator fatalities

then adding insult to injury you say

Your claim about guns increasing...

even though I preemptively said I was not making any such claim:

Please understand I am not taking a position on whether more people own guns now or before, they may, they may not. I am simply saying your own premises do not support your conclusion that Undisclosed statement is empircally false.

and finally I am asked to believe that 'It is empirically false that there are more people with guns today' should have been taken as instead 'I'm sure there are more guns today, it's just absurd to look at the total people with guns...'


I firmly believe personal responsibility is a huge element of security. I also suspect I am the most 'red state' of my IPVM colleagues. For me, I see nothing wrong with allowing firearms in public buildings for self defense.

To the 'gunfights in the library' scenario: why in the world would you ever venture somewhere where you might need a gun? Rather, you avoid those places, gun or no gun. You don't need seatbelts or fire extinguishers most of the time either, but that doesn't mean it is unwise to have them.

Unfortunately, the only way to neutralize deadly force is with deadly force... if personal protection is a serious priority, you must take that responsibility for what it entails.

There is nothing inherently 'evil' about a gun, only when they are improperly handled or used do problems arise. The element of the population that seeks to politicize this question is a real concern to me:

  • You have those who amplify the risks of firearms ('the anti-gunners') who distract attention from the real root cause: evil people. Shame on them.
  • You also have those who defiantly defend 'the right to carry' as a political statement and march around with guns strapped to their hips openly, simply because someone feels they should not be able to. Shame on them.

The saying goes 'When all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.' When you carry a gun, are you more apt to shoot someone? Am I more likely to be shot by someone in error if guns proliferate? This again firmly depends on the 'personal responsibility' mandate of security. Possessing deadly force in any public place calls for great responsibility.

I might be misreading this or making too much out of it, but I think the poling question might be a little flawed.

For instance, in the case where someone is opposed to guns in federal buildings under no circumstances, what do you answer? If you answer "Good idea", it could be interpreted that you agree with guns in public buildings where there is no enhanced security. If you answer "Bad idea", it could be interpreted that you believe guns should be allowed all the time in public buildings. It seems that there should be a third option, "No guns allowed at all".

If the question assumes that everyone answering is a proponent of guns in public buildings in general, than the answers will be clear since the poled group would accept the basis for the first part of the question.

This is purely a logics/semantics issue. I will leave the politcal banter to others.

Jerome, thanks. I changed the options to "Support the law" and "Against the law" to make it clearer.

6 million Concealed Carry Weapon Licenses in the US. This is frightening. I don't think there is more than 50 in Canada.

What's frightening about that?

Conceal carry holders rarely commit a crime with a gun. Statistics sometimes show less than well under 1%.

For example , this article...

I'm sure statistics for criminals using a gun in a crime are a lot higher.

Something else to consider... when you get a carry permit, you have to have your fingerprints taken and submit to a background check. If you commit a crime with a gun as a permitted carry holder, it would be much easier to catch you than if you hadn't gone through the checks.

I believe in private ownership of guns, including the conceal carry by law abiding citizens. But I also believe there should be some better screening process for people to own guns. I know plenty of people who aren't law breakers but don't have the mentality or temperament to be trusted with guns.

I came to a very difficult decision one day: I decided to call the sheriff's office and tell them I didn't think my dad was mentally fit to own his guns. He's a war veteran with alcohol and anger management issues….. PTSD that he refuses to admit he has. He's even been in jail recently for hitting someone with a pipe in an argument. Has a record of calls about violent behavior. He’s admitted to me homicidal thoughts. But they told me there was nothing they could do. They couldn’t even do an investigation. All they could do was put a warning in their system if an officer ever had to respond to his house that he owns firearms. So I would probably have to take some measures to try and have him declared mentally unfit for firearms through the court system. But if someone’s family member who has no record at all calls about another family member who’s had a history of calls, you’d think something could be done more easily…?

Anyone who hasn’t watched “Bowling for Columbine” should sometime. While admittedly my opinion of Micheal Moore nose dived deeply with how slanted and sensationalist his presentation was, in all the slant and bias, he interviews some people and who you see legally own guns, but you know they damn sure as hell shouldn’t have them.

Has anyone ever asked themselves the question of "Why does the goverment of the United States of America" have a 2nd Amendment? Who did our forefathers think we needed protection from?

Our forefathers wanted the citizens to be protected from the government.

I'm not convinced letting untrained/poorly trained, gun carrying citizens roam about in public places is a recipe for success. If anything, the opposite is probably true.

They should let the trained professionals take care of increased security where its warranted. And I'm also not convinced all of these places require that level of security. Courthouses, I'll agree with. Schools and hospitals, not so much.

I think Batman said it best in The Dark Knight:

Something to think about.

Murder and homocide rates in the US have been falling since it peaked in 1975. Its actually less than the Clinton Era on the assult weapons ban. But, weapon purcahses have been on the rise since then too. Actually, homocide has been knocked off from the top 14 causes of death in the US.

Are you suggesting a causality between increased gun purchases and decreased murders?

Not at all.... but we live in a society where the media creates illusions that are not real.

We live in a much safer soceity than what our parents lived according to statistics... but media gives it a different view and unless we educate ourselves, we wont know the truth.

Also, one thing to point out: The school and Movie theater massacres we have had have no place in this country and it needs to stop. But one thing all these places have in common is that they are all "Gun Free" and criminals know that.

We do live in a much safer society, but it seems pretty obvious that the lion's share of that goes to increases in security technology (like DNA, surveillance camera, GPS tracking, etc.) rather than guns. In 1975, it was much easier to get away with murder (literally).

Agreed... but you cannot take out the facts that more people own guns than before.

No criminal wants to be in a gun fight.

Empirically false:

"The household gun ownership rate has fallen from an average of 50 percent in the 1970s to 49 percent in the 1980s, 43 percent in the 1990s and 35 percent in the 2000s"

Undisclosed (#0379173) said:

more people own guns than before.

You said:

Empirically false:

[because] "...household gun ownership rate has fallen from an average of 50 percent in the 1970s ... to 35 percent in the 2000s"

Why false?

Number of Households U.S. Census

Year Households Pct/HH Own Households Own

1970 ___ 63,500,000 ___ 50% ___ 31,750,000

2010 ___ 114,800,000 ___ 35% ___ 40,180,000

Though this only speaks about households not people as the orginal poster asserted. Please understand I am not taking a position on whether more people own guns now or before, they may, they may not. I am simply saying your own premises do not support your conclusion that Undisclosed statement is empircally false.

Percentage terms is what counts. The number of US household has increased by 80% since 1970 (63m to 114m) but the number of gun owners less than 30%. That's why the ownership rate has dropped so significantly.

The bottom line is that people are far less likely to own a gun or be armed than they were in the 1970s. So criminals are far less likely to encounter people with guns today than in the 1970s.

Despite this, the total number of crimes is the same in 2012 as it was in 1974, despite the fact that the population has grown by 100 million people (i.e., the crime rate has decreased about 30%, ironically about the same level as gun ownership has dropped).

So criminals are far less likely to encounter people with guns today than in the 1970s.[A]

I could agree with that...

But don't you really mean to say "criminals with guns are far less likely to encounter people with guns today than in the 1970s."[B]

The thing is that everybody agrees we need to take guns away from criminals, and most would agree that the idea is not to simply take away guns from law-abiding citizens for its own sake. Rather the anti-gun position would be that we need to take away guns from everyone in order to deny access to those who would use them for evil.

But if the rate of "criminal households" who own a gun has not fallen like the general rate, (implied by [B]), then that might imply the stricter gun laws have had far more impact on the legal gun owner than the criminal. Otherwise [B] might not hold as gun holders would be reduced equally in both groups...

p.s. Regardless of how many library shootings I end up finding, its been f'ing depressing reading the mostly idiotic and always tragic accounts of the human condition gone awry...

Unfortunately, the type of people who go out on killing rampages probably don't care much wether someone else in the room has a gun or not.

Out of the 25 rampage killings in the past 20 years in the U.S., the majority (15) ended with the killer commiting suicide (11) or being shot by police (4). As for the other 10, most were either determined to have severe psychological issues or as being under the influence of drugs at the time of the rampage.

Any expert worth his salt will tell you it's nearly impossible to defend against someone who feels they have nothing to loose and little or no regard for their own well being.

It's also impossible to determine after the fact, but my guess is that if those 25 incidents hadn't played out the way they did, they still would have taken place in some form or other regardless of the amount of security involved in trying to prevent them.

These people aren't your run of the mill thugs.

The statistics cited mention 11 suicides. In many instances, the episode ended when someone with a gun, whether individual citizens with weapons or law enforcement arrives, the shooter chooses to take his own life. Arapahoe is just the latest example. The killer chose to end his own life after an 80 second shooting spree when someone showed up with a gun in the school. Apparently some of them do care if someone has a gun!

Armed citizens yes. The average number of people killed in mass shootings when stopped by police is 14.29

The average number of people killed in a mass shooting when stopped by a civilian is 2.33

The kid in Arapahoe could just as easily have surrendered. I doubt his decision to kill himself was triggered by the possible realization that law enforcement was on the way.

He went there with the intent to kill one of his teachers, who also happened to be the librarian, and shot another student out of frustration when he realized he wasn't going to succeed with his initial plan.

He obviously didn't feel his life was worth much to begin with if he was driven to do this by what appears to have been a demotion from the school's debating team.

He must have figured the other student was dead and that he was going to spend the rest of what he already thought was his useless life roting in jail for that and decided it was better to just be done with it.

<edit> Looking at some of the data about school shootings, they are relatively frequent but typically don't make as many victims as other forms of rampage shootings - which aren't as common at 1.2 occurences per year over the past 20 years (a negligible number really when you compare it to the U.S. population) - not because they are responded to any more or less quickly, or because someone else shows up with a gun any faster, but because they are usually much more targeted. The one thing that makes both types of crimes almost impossible to prevent is that the shooters typically plan their misdeeds and act alone, making it so that there is very little that law enforcement can effectively do to detect these people before the fact. <edit>

The 2nd amendment was probably placed there by the constitution makers because the British army was there in recent memory. Not much threat there now.

Do Americans love their guns now because they just don't trust other Americans? American culture (politics, movies, media) seems to propagate the belief that you shouldn't trust your neighbour?

I'm curious on what makes you think there is no threat now or in the future. What about the NSA leaks, doesn't that tell you that the goverment thinks it has too much power? i agree we currently don't have a threat, but what about tomorrow?

I am not saying that we should revolt or anything like that.... But it always reminds my of this quote:

When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty.

Thomas Jefferson

he also went ahead and said that every man is a soldier. I couldn't agree more. As a citizen of this amazing country, it's my duty to be prepared to defend it no matter the cost. I'm not being radical here, just being American!

And you honoustly think that having your own personal gun would help you protect against an army ? The US army for that matter ? Do you think that when the French revolutions took place in the civilians all had bows and swords ?
The power of a revolution doesn't come solely from the weapons carried, but the fact that soldiers are forced to fight their own brothers and sisters.

Using gun laws to 'protect' yourself from your own gouverment is just nonesense. I personally just find that a cheap excuse to own a gun.

If a bunch of yahoos with small arms were in fact ineffective against the US Army, the war in Afghanistan would have been wrapped up in about six months.

The challenge of the conflicts in the middle east is not one of weaponry but of mentality: a lack in the value of human life in a social values system way behind the modern world. We can win every battle, but the war is not winnable in a short term because the problems are systemic in the society. In essence it's almost a suicide mentality, which kind of brings us back to the challenge we so concern ourselves with here: what is the most effective (and socially and politically acceptable) way to defend society against someone who does not value the life of themsleves or others who chooses to go on a killing spree?

What I find saddest about the above is the abuse of Thomas Jefferson's quote. The right wing seems to think very literally here, that the government should literally fear for its life, and anyone who doesn't understand that the second amendment is the most American and important thing ever is un-American.

The government isn't afraid, nor will it ever be afraid of your freaking guns, dudes. They have a military that will stomp the crap out of you and everyone else around you. That you think hoarding ARs will protect you from your government is laughable. You cite the NSA. Are you going to stop the government from spying on its citizens by shooting them?

Everyone in government should fear us. They should fear for their jobs though. They should fear the nonsense status quo be flipped. But they don't, because half the country is out there worried more about their guns than actually effecting real change. Washington laughs at you because you're so distracted by taking the second amendment literally (except you're hardly a well-regulated militia) don't understand their are actual issues afoot. The rest of the world laughs at the entire nation because they can't believe we can't even pass a law to implement better background checks, get stupidly high-capacity magazines off the street, and whatever other reasonable actions we should take.

And final word: if you're all this afraid, please burn your concealed carry permits and melt down your guns, because the last person I want walking around with a loaded weapon is someone in fear.

I am a firm believer that the founders included 2A as a means to squelch an out of control government. I am not a radical, right wing lunatic, I just feel that at that point in history there was no question that almost everyone had firearms for hunting and other purposes, so I can't see them taking the time to state the obvious. Furthermore, they had just crushed an out of control dictator that attempted to remove their weapons, so they wanted to be sure that another one could take them away.

The government isn't afraid, nor will it ever be afraid of your freaking guns, dudes. They have a military that will stomp the crap out of you and everyone else around you. That you think hoarding ARs will protect you from your government is laughable.

Obviously you have been under a rock for awhile. Have you every heard of a country called Lybia? How about Syria...ring a bell? Both of which had large, mainly civilian, uprisings that have, at the very least, been very challenging for the official military to handle. What I think you may be forgetting is that it takes people to run tanks and planes and ships, and you are trusting that those folks will be able to actually perform those dutues against fellow countrymen if God forbid it ever came to that. As witnessed elsewhere, many would simply leave and go to the otherside...weapons in tow.

This is going to be my last comment in this thread, because I'm not going to be convinced, and neither is the other side. I am also not going to give history lessons here, but:

There are so many differences between the colonies in 1774 and America now that claiming anything to be analagous is silly.

Yeah, I have heard of Lybia and Syria. If you're holding them up as an example of why We The People need guns, you probably should reconsider. And if you think that change is best effected behind the barrel of a gun, we are never going to agree.

Even if "many" in the armed forces left, do you really think enough wouldn't be left to operate enough heavy weapons to kill every last person in the US?

The root of everything is: Gun laws don't prevent criminals from getting guns. This is true. But carrying guns is a personal solution to a giant problem. The big picture will remain the same.

No law ever prevented a crime, thats why we are all here on a security website and that is why I feel the need to carry a gun. And I never said that change is BEST effected behind the barrel of a gun, but it is cetainly an option when all else has failed.

I definitely agree with undisclosed on this point: "The government isn't afraid, nor will it ever be afraid of your freaking guns, dudes. They have a military that will stomp the crap out of you and everyone else around you."

This is very true. A key part of the 2nd Amendment provision is organizing a militia, which aside from a smattering of survivalists and fringe radicals, is non existent. A bunch of men unwilling to pay a parking ticket because of 'big government' is not all of a sudden going to fall in line with a 'chief' because they hate the same enemy. I've watch enough documentaries about street and biker gangs to learn this. :)

Military training focuses on operational discipline, equipment familiarity, and absolute chain of command hierarchy. A random bunch of deer rifles against a modern rifleman squad is pretty one sided.

In Iraq, the insurgent population had ready access to 'Class III' firearms that are not common in the US - stuff like fully automatic machine guns, RPGs, mortars, and loads of artillery shells they made IEDs from. ...and they still got obliterated.

And the 13th Amendment was 'probably placed there' because of that whole Civil War thing. Not much threat there now, right?

Are you saying we should remove them? I mean I am not opposed to anyone who wants to get rid of 2A, as long as you actually get rid of 2A constitutionally. If the government successfully passed an amendment to do away with 2A I would gladly give up my guns. But if you want to go and pass a bunch of laws that take away my constitutional rights and skirt the document that this country was built upon then I have an issue with that.

I will follow the rules...if everyone else does.

Actually, Undisclosed, I was sarcastically trying to undermine the point the 2nd Amendment was a product of context. I do not believe it is any less relevant today than the 13th Amendment.

Scumbags 225 year ago have a lot in common with scumbags in 2014.

Sorry Brian...well put!

If one considers the assumption that a person carying a gun is responsible and trained and emotianally stable to know how to use it, to be precise and not affect the innocent bystandard, then one may assume that every person who has a valid vehicle drivers license will follow the law, be polite on the road and never ever get into an accident.

I've seen a discussion on gun use in schools and the ability of even law enforcment to respond under critical circumstances, how does one know that a civilian has had the same training, physically and emotionally to use a weapon in a bad situation.

It's funny that the discussion goes wether people should be allowed to carry a gun in a public building. You already agreed to it that people can carry a gun on the street, concealed. Does it really matter then where they reside then. You already opened pandora's box.

All I know is that when I got my concealed carry permit I had 8 of my friends in the class with me and out of those 8 I am the only one who carries everyday. I would imagine that those numbers are not very far off from the rest of the nation. Carrying a loaded weapon is a huge responsibility and one that I do not take lightly. The state requirements to get a permit in my state are a joke as far as I am concerned. You need 12 hours of classroom training and there is no shooting qualification, therefore you can go sit in a class, take what is basicaly an open book test and go get your permit. They are actually looking to reduce the class time to 4 hours now.

I went out and took professional training and I joined an outdoor range when I can shoot while moving (not just standing in a lane). I also shoot IDPA shoots occasionally which really put you to the test. I would say that I certainly shoot more than some of the police officers I know. I feel that if confronted with a sutuation, I will at least have a fighting chance.

One more thing, I think there are alot of people out there that dont realize how many people do actually carry at a given time. You would never know by looking at me that I had one (sometimes two) guns on me and likely a knife. Look around the next time you are out at the mall, local eatery, or Wal-mart, if you know what to look for you may be surprised to see that there are quite a few prople carrying even though I still think only 1 out of 8 do it daily!

Duane, thanks. That's quite an eye opener!

Btw, I found a site detailing the number of concealed carry permits in each state. Evidently, Florida leads the US in total number with 1.1+ million. Utah might lead the way in percentage - 411,000 for 2.85 million people, or 14% of the population.

You cannot take issued state permits and extrapolate that to mean 'armed citizens in that state'.

For example, Utah has one of the most lenient issuance programs in the entire country. I can be a citizen of another state, apply for a concealed carry license in Utah, and because of reciprocity agreements carry a weapon lawfully in my state with only a Utah license:

Both Florida and Utah allow for out of state residents to obtain licenses so keep this in mind when you look at those numbers.

You would never know by looking at me that I had one (sometimes two) guns on me and likely a knife.

Extra ammo too?

Really help me understand what that feels like, I'm not being a jerk here...

How often when in public have you started an internal dialouge with yourself like:

Ok, that doesn't look quite right... Hmm trench coat in July.... And is he signalling that guy over there? Stay calm, unsnap holster, remove safety... Ok if the big guy goes for it, ill take him out first then his partner. wait for it... There! What the?

Ok, he's just buying one, whew! But what is that? ...that nametag on the cashier looks like its from Target not Walmart! Ok, make a plan, stay focused....etc....

Of course I'm being dramatic but how often do you go to Defcon 1, where you are ready to act with sub-second response?

To answer your question, most of the time one extra magazine as well. The loudest sound in a gun fight is "click".

It is nothing like what you describe, it actually is just a way of life once you do it for a while. Without typing out a novel here, I did not own a gun 4 years ago and all that changed whee I was put in a situation that made me feel absolutely helpless to protect myself and even more importantly my family. I cannot tell how sick of a feeling it is to know that there is nothing you can do but take what may come at you if someone decides to give it. While I was lucky and no harm came to me and my family, within 90 days I received training and became what some might call a "gun carrying lunatic". You might be surprised to know that since that time more has changed than just the fact that I carry a gun most of the time:

  • My family and I shoot together more than we go to movies together.
  • We have discussed and understand all of our roles if I would happen to have to use my weapon in self defense.
  • I (on numerous occasions) have forgotten my cell phone at home on a workday, but never my gun.
  • The entire family has been made more aware of opening their eyes to what is going on around them...we call it "staying in the yellow". Put the cell phone down and look around...know your surroundings.

Also, if you are an integrator in this industry, have you ever thought about the information you might hold about a client or system that someone else with bad intentions may want? Most of us have large accounts that secure something that others may want...who's to say someone may want it bad enough to use you to get it.

Thanks for you sincere and forthcoming response to my questions. I appreciate and understand your desire to protect your family above all else. Without elaborating I can say that I know only too well that the 'bad guys' are out there and to rely on others for your safety is at some level a gamble.

You have certainly given plenty of food for thought, but If you didn't mind answering a question or two more, I would ask:

It sounds you had a transformation re: guns because of your incident, were you anti-gun before?

It seems like you might be connecting the family closeness with the arming of the family in the spirit of 'the family that shoots together etc...', is that a fair statement or was it the incident that brought you closer?

Lastly, on a lighter note you said you often forgot your cell phone but not your gun: but have you seen these?

Gives a whole new meaning to butt-dial ;)

Health and well being to you and yours and Stay Free!


Chris, I don't mind at all. I was not anti-gun before my incident, but I would not say I was pro gun either. in my late teens I started hunting but that lasted only until I was in my early 20's, that was my only real exposure to guns.

The family shooting together is just something that we do. I have never given it much thought but I would say the shooting has brought us closer together, not the actual catalyst for my deciding to get armed. That cell phone gun is kind of Scary!

Legal guns are safe guns. As was brought up again and again in this thread, people carrying legally cause a miniscule amount of the shootings in this country, and the vast majority of those are deemed justified after the fact. So, why not allow them to carry in public buildings?

As far as the security is concerned: posting a sign saying "no guns" at the entrance does nothing to take guns out of the hands of people carrying them illegally, it only disarms the law abiding, who, as established, are not the people we need to worry about. So taking active measures to disarm the law breakers only evens the field and ensures that legal carriers are not put at a disadvantage against those carrying illegally.

Oddly enough, with all of the discussion around this topic, no one seems to have brought up the obvious question of what motivated these elected officials to vote this law into being.

Pandering to a certain group of voters in an attempt to secure reelection could easily be seen as having more to do with their choice than insuring the safety of their constituents.

This exerpt from the article is particularly revealing and makes you wonder how many other public administrators will use a similar approach:

"Few have expressed more disappointment in the decision than the board of Wichita’s public library, which already has an armed security officer on site. Steve Roberts, the board’s chairman, said that if library staff members saw someone with a weapon, they would not be able to determine who was carrying it legally and who might be a threat. The police would be called. Lockdowns could occur."

In most jurisdictions, there is a marked legal difference between carrying a weapon and brandishing a weapon.

  • Carrying in a holster = legal (where permitted)
  • Pointing a gun at someone, waiving it around, unholstering it without cause = illegal

In my state, brandishing a gun without cause is a felony.

Carrying in a holster = legal long as you're licenced to carry a concealed weapon.

The point being made here is that civil servants have no way of knowing wether someone is or isn't.

I guess they could ask for a license.

Exactly. They ask for a license before hitting the panic button.

So basically, all civil servants are now being asked to be responsible to monitor who is licenced/unlicensed to carry a concealed weapon in Kansas?

It's easy to can see how that might not sit well with some of them.

Neither am I, but how many people do you know who have been asked to show their licence to a civil servant who may have noticed the bulge in their jacket or gotten a peek at their gun while they were pulling their wallet or something else out of an inside pocket?

I'm willing to bet most wouldn't chance asking the question.

I personally have been asked 0 times over the course of 8 years.

Brandishing is illegal. Guns don't kill people unless someone points one at you and then pulls the trigger. Simply having a gun, or a stranger carrying a gun, is benign and not a problem.

I have a bit of a speeding problem, and have been pulled over several times while a firearm in my possession. State law requires me to immediately declare my firearm to the officer. That exchange usually goes like this:

Me: I have a loaded gun on my person.

Cop: Are you going to shoot me with it?

Me: No.

Cop: Then keep it there. <writes ticket>

Again, the lawful carry of firearms does not contribute confusion and mayhem to keeping the peace.

I guess you've made my point, but I can also appreciate how lawful carry of firearms may not be such a big issue as long as everyone approaches it the way you do.

Being in Canada and used to operating with a different set of laws, I'm still not very comfortable with the concept.

I'm curious. Which point did I make?

That most wouldn't chance asking if you're licenced to carry a concealed weapon if they happened to notice you were carrying one.

Then again, there's always the possibility no one's noticed in the past 8 years.

I have interacted with law enforcement 3 of times since getting my carry. I always offer up that I have a weapon as it is State law to do so (but I would anyway) and each time I got the same response. What are your carrying? I tell them and they all said something to the effect of "hey, I used to carry that" or "thats my backup". One of the times was at my house and they responded to a call my wife made to them and I just happened to arrive home. The officer walked up to me in my yard and I immediatly told him I was armed and licensed. He said "Do you live here?" I said "Yes" he said, "thats none of my business then but thanks for telling me". I sure would want to know if I was in their shoes!

If the weapon is concealed, how can they see it?

I am not trying to be argumentative, but point to one of the most important aspects of why the laws are written the way they are.

I live in a state where concealed carry provisions have been law for almost 20 years. There is no mass confusion between lawful and legitimate threats for law enforcement.

I think This Video is a good example of just what can be concealed....

In some states I believe even with a concealed licene if you cac see the outling of the gun (also called "printing") it is illegal. In Ohio, you can carry a gun openly (open carry) in a holster on your person without a license. Now, as you can imagine, the likelyhood of getting stopped by a LEO is pretty high...

"Pandering"? Or "representing"?

I guess that depends on who you ask.

"Excuse me, Constituent, do you feel represented, or pandered to?"

Just reading all these comments sure doesn't paint a pretty picture of America. I really get the feeling that people live in fear there. If one must carry a gun in order to feel safe, why would you still want to live there. Perhaps it's just my European nature that such a way of live in unfamiliar with me, but I wouldn't want to wish to live in a place where I need to be able to apply deadly force whenever I wish, in order to feel safe.

Like I already said. Allowing guns opened up pandora's box. "I must own a gun cause he owns a gun and he might use it on me" is a thought that only goes one way, to more people getting guns. And the way I see it, that doesn't mean it will get safer, just more deadly when things DO escalate.

Rogier, what's weird is that America is generally a pretty safe place. To me, it's not so much about being against guns, as just being puzzled why so many people feel the need to carry. I certainly respect and understand people like Duane who have special circumstances, but I just imagine that most people in America are perfectly safe, even without a gun.

Looking at the numbers one could say that the USA is reasonably safe indeed. Taking numbers from Wikipedia the the murder rates per 100k inhabitants is 4,7. In comparison. Canada has 1,6 and the Netherlands has 1,1.

The whole contrast between Canada and the US always amazed me. Since both countries allow the usage of guns. I guess more guns doesn't mean it's automaticly safer.

Rogier - There are significant differences in gun ownership and usage laws, as well as the cultural aspect of gun ownership (Canada doesn't have an equivalent to the U.S. Constitution's 2nd amendment), between Canada and the U.S.. Another factor that may have an influence is population density. Canada's is 3.7 people/ compared to 33.2 people/ for the U.S..

You need to look more at the demographics, geographics, cultural and other determinants to arrive at just "who" may be more immune or safe from becoming the victim of a gun related offense. Not unlike how we integrators conduct our risk assessments using a myriad of tools, consultation with our client and research to arrive at what level of protection is necessary to address that risk.

Unfortunately, I am not able to get a gun permit. But I found a great alternative...


(if you are in a hurry, scrub to 1:50, but you should watch the whole thing)

I'll preface this by saying the following is a joke:

"When someone breaks into his house, the first thing the typical anti-gun atheist does is call for someone with a gun, and then pray that they arrive quickly."

Obviously this makes an untrue generalization that anti-gun folks are atheists, but jokes are funny when they're close to the truth.

First rule of thumb in a gunfight: Bring a gun. Otherwise, it's not much of a fight...

Here in Georgia, the CCW permit was insanely easy to get. Background check, fingerprints, fill out a form. Wait 10 days, bingo. I agree with previous poster that there should be required safety training, but I'll go one better and say that you should have to prove you can put 6 shots into a center mass target before you can get the permit. If a fellow CCW permit holder is trying to save my life somewhere, I'd hope that they could shoot straight.

I would like to see Georgia law changed to allow guns in public buildings. Where do these lunatics go when they want maximum impact when they die in a blaze of glory? Places with a lot of people. You do the math.

I agree with with you Greg about proving you are proficient with handgun before obtaining a concealed permit. It was a little harder here in Texas. 10 hour instruction course, background check with fingerprints (Sagem Morpho system), and shooting at a range.

My group had 28 people (split into 2 groups of 14 on range) and we had to shoot a silhouette target at 3 yards, 7 yards and 15 yards. Shooting was timed and scored (i.e you had x number of seconds to fire x shots). You have to have a minumum score to pass. I think 4 out of 28 did not pass. With everyone firing at the same time (5 shots in 10 seconds, or 15 seconds at the longer ranges), adrenaline was defninitly pumping. Not to mention loud as hell, even though it was at an outdoor police range. It took almost 3 months from when I submitted the paperwork (after I completed background checks/class/and qualified) until I got my CHL. I think most of the delay was the state just being overwhelmed by the number of applicants.

Here is a link to the Texas CHL range requirements:

I am not sure where everyone is getting the number of CHL holders for each state, but I saw Texas listed as having around 585,000 ( That seems low to me, my CHL number is over 6 million, my instructor's CHL number was in the low thousands (he was on of the first to get his CHL) and it does look like they are in sequential order as newer CHL numbers are approaching the 7 million mark.