Subscriber Discussion

Genetec Hik Statement Very Weak Now?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 18, 2016

Hi Guys,

 

After another week with no press release all as i can say is this was 100% a marketing campaign. Why have Genetec not come out strongly with any news. 

Come on Genetec your looking very weak now either you are against Hik or your not?

 

I have heard a rumor that Hik-Vision buying Genetec?

 

Any news anyone?

 

 

 

 

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Matthew Netardus
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

There have been those rumors for a long time, and there is no chance that HIK is going to buy Genetec.

I am confused as to why you think this was 100% a marketing campaign, and your proof is that they haven't come out strongly with any news (ergo, not a marketing campaign?). This is still a completely new concept, and was just recently (in the last week) rolled out to Genetec integrator.

In my opinion, it'd be a mistake for Genetec to "come out strongly" since that would just take attention away from Genetec and put it on HIKVision. HIKs loss isn't necessarily Genetec's gain so there isn't a good reason to build a big marketing campaign around this.

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JH
John Honovich
Nov 18, 2016
IPVM

#1, I spoke with Genetec this week, they said they are distributing a one page summary of this issue through their sales people. I have not seen a copy, though I suspect it is going to be similar to what they have already said. Have you spoken with your local Genetec rep? I'd recommend reaching out to them again for that statement.

This was definitely not a Genetec marketing campaign but a topic we found from outside of Genetec and we decided to run. Net/net, it was a leak. IPVM is aggressive about running stories on business changes like this.

However, you are one of many people who consider this a marketing campaign. Interestingly a number of manufacturers have concluded that this is a brilliant marketing campaign but that's based more on the net positive reaction and huge attention this has gotten rather than Genetec wanting to do this.

As for Hikvision buying Genetec, it is extremely unlikely. Genetec is a private company primarily owned by the CEO. It is very hard to buy private companies unless they are willing to sell. And given Genetec's CEO has lead this move dropping Hikvision, getting him to agree to sell will be incredibly difficult.

Hikvision has definitely inquired / investigating buying many Western manufacturers (most famously Pelco) but that is different than those companies (such as Genetec) agreeing.

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

I have not seen a copy, though I suspect it is going to be similar to what they have already said.

Let's hope it contains a little more than they said so far, for instance:

  1. How much, roughly, is the added charge?
  2. If choose not to upgrade can I use Hik cameras with support forever?
  3. Will the new license be ONVIF only?
  4. Will Genetec review this decision periodically?
  5. Is Genetec considering this action for other manufacturers?

How can they have not included some pricing parameters yet to aid in planning?

JH
John Honovich
Nov 18, 2016
IPVM

I did get details on the upgrade for Hikvision cameras deployed on existing Genetec systems. There is no charge for that, just sign the waiver.

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

When you say existing Hikvision cameras, you mean any Hikvision cameras supported by Genetec as of last week, or whatever Hikvision cameras a particular customer has deployed so far?

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Matthew Netardus
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

From what we have heard, it would only apply to cameras already deployed on a Genetec system.

JH
John Honovich
Nov 18, 2016
IPVM

Yes, for whatever Hikvision cameras are currently deployed on existing Genetec systems.

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 19, 2016
IPVMU Certified

There is no charge for that, just sign the waiver.

The actual text of the waiver that needs to be signed would be another item, (along with the fee schedule) that Genetec could provide for clarity and to allow partners to fruitfully begin discussions with the vanishingly small numbers of end-users who are deploying Hikvision on Genetec.

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Can someone explain breifly how licensing has tradionally worked in Genetec?

I understand Milestone, is it like that, where you can buy licenses before you choose your cameras, or?

Do you get lifetime driver packs, even with no sup payments?

Avatar
Matthew Netardus
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Genetec licenses traditionally have been just a generic camera license (though they do have a reduced cost for an analog camera license that works with a set of encoders only); that license worked the same way regardless of whether it was a supported Axis camera, or a simply ONVIF based integration with another brand.

This model with differing charges for HIKVision cameras is a new kind within the licensing model

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Nov 18, 2016

Matt,

Curious if you know the answer to the other question that was asked?

"Do you get lifetime driver packs, even with no sup payments?"

Avatar
Matthew Netardus
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

The cameras supported on the version you are on are supported for life, but if you are not part of the Genetec Advantage program you lose out on future upgrade, version changes, and at some point you'd have to either use older cameras and/or older firmware to have that camera work on the old system (say a Security Center 5.1)

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Nov 18, 2016

Thanks.

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Perhaps Genetec is testing the waters to see what price the market will bear for the sino-surcharge... (Other explanations for the reticence welcome)

In that case, maybe a poll would be helpful, ala:

How much extra should Genetec charge per Hik camera?

  1. No charge - no waiver
  2. Waiver only
  3. $5
  4. $25
  5. $50
  6. % of camera cost
Avatar
Matthew Netardus
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

From what I would imagine, the cost of the license will be a good bit higher than all of those options if it is to cover the increased costs/liabilities

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Thanks, Matthew.

So, once you purchase a license for a specific camera, does that license ever expire?

Meaning is it a lifetime per camera exemption, regardless of sup plan or upgrading etc?

...to cover the increased costs/liabilities...

What is the increased liability to Genetec by this camera being allowed to connect?

Avatar
Matthew Netardus
Nov 18, 2016
IPVMU Certified

It is a lifetime connection, you don't ever lose your license cap (if you have 5 licenses, you keep those 5 for the life of the system even if its 50 years later and you never renewed your support). However, if you never renew the support and you want to add new cameras 10 years later, they may not be supported by the old version you still have

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Nov 19, 2016

Just to be clear though, the firmware on cameras continues to change. Especially on newer purchases even if it is the same older model camera. What you are saying is we would have to roll back the firmware to whatever was supported at the time we purchased the Genetec system and we would never be able to update the firmware on any of our cameras. If I was ever going to grow my system by adding cameras, especially newer models, I really am required to be on the Genetec Advantage program?

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 19, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Are you asking about if you have Hik cameras, or how it works in general?

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Nov 19, 2016

Whoops. Thought this was a continuation of above. I meant in general, but in reality it would work the same way with Hik in any case, right? I mean, once I own the Hik license by signing the waiver and paying the fee I would assume they are treated like the other licenses I own. So then the question becomes, I should stay on GA, because that is the only way I can continually update the firmware over time. If Hik releases a new firmware, I surely want to be able to upgrade and get the new backdoor/botnet features as quickly as possible.

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 20, 2016
IPVMU Certified

...the cost of the license will be a good bit higher than all of those options if it is to cover the increased costs/liabilities...

Apparently so, $250.

Question, currently when buying Genetec licenses, do you need to specify the make/model of the camera?

Do you think you this will change?

Can you just buy a generic ONVIF license?

Avatar
Matthew Netardus
Nov 21, 2016
IPVMU Certified

You don't have to specify what camera. You could try ONVIF integration, but I would imagine Genetec will filter those based on MAC and will simply have a 3rd license option (currently the have a discounted "analog license" for encoders, and then traditional licenses; I'd imagine a "Special license" for these cameras on this list)

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 21, 2016
IPVMU Certified

...but I would imagine Genetec will filter those based on MAC...

Agree. On the other hand, its a simple command to change the MAC:

Do Any Cameras Allow MAC Spoofing?

EP
Eddie Perry
Nov 18, 2016

7.% of cost ofcamera subsidy by the government?

U
Undisclosed #4
Nov 18, 2016

I sense Genetec being butthurt over hikvision for some reason or another. Otherwise, why not charge a fee for Dahua who just famously got hacked by a very well known botnet?

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JH
John Honovich
Nov 18, 2016
IPVM

They have made it clear it is a China / PRC government issue, ergo why Huawei was removed too.

You can certainly disagree with them on the prudence of doing do but unless you have evidence, your 'sense' of 'butthurt' seems unjustified.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 19, 2016
IPVMU Certified

They have made it clear it is a China / PRC government issue, ergo why Huawei was removed too.

As you know, unlike Hikvision, Huawei is not owned by the Chinese Government, on paper at least. Rather, its structure is an ESOP, like Dahua.

Yes, Wikileaked documents contain statements regarding doubts about where the true control lie and whether backdoors may have been installed. This led to an informal ban on Huawei telcom products, though it should be noted no actual legal sanction was put in place.

In any event no evidence of backdoor was ever found, as the White House admits. If you can find a U.S agency that claims that Huawei is actually owned by the state, I'd would be interested in seeing it.

All this to say that it makes Genetec's action more undefined, since Hikvision can be explained simply by saying that Hikvision's largest shareholder is the Chinese government. With Huawei, they are making a call on something that there is no consensus about, and certainly no official document or statement to back them up.

Is Huawei controlled by the state? It may be, and as we have discussed before, POEs as well as SOEs in China are all beholden to the state ultimately, though SOEs are much easier to manipulate.

tl;dr;

All this to say that, Genetec should also release its criteria for determing this new class of excluded vendors. Otherwise, we should consider the possibility that Genetec conclude that other POEs, i.e. Dahua et al, could be implicated at any time.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 19, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

To add to the Huawei portion of this discussion, would this likely lead Genetec to remove support for all HiSilicon based devices? If not, why?

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JH
John Honovich
Nov 19, 2016
IPVM

Note to others: HiSilicon is owned by Huawei, and is the main encoder / chip provider to low end IP cameras.

It's an interesting point. I don't think they will do so but it follows logically that if Huawei is untrustworthy so too should be cameras that use their core components.

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 19, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Additional discussion here on the threat posed by HiSilicon.

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 20, 2016
IPVMU Certified

John posted this in another thread:

"Update from a Genetec email, no charge for Hikvision/Huawei cameras already connected to Genetec systems, an additional $250 per device for new connections:"

  • You may have heard about changes we recently made to our Supported Devices List (SDL). Genetec has designated certain devices (including those manufactured or white-labelled by Hikvision and Huawei) as having increased cyber risk factors and requiring special handling procedures in our R&D facilities. Our customers, consultants, partners and technical publications are worried about these risk factors. And we are worried by these risk factors, too.
  • Genetec will continue to support these devices, but will pass along the costs and risks of integrating and supporting this equipment to end-users.
  • Customers who already own a Genetec system containing such devices will need to agree to a waiver when renewing their Genetec Advantage Agreement (there is no additional charge).
  • Customers who are buying a new system (or adding new connections to an existing system) will need to agree to the waiver, and purchase the special connection license at a fee of 250$ USD MSRP per connection in addition to the usual connection fee.
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Nov 21, 2016

https://www.genetec.com/partners/technology-alliance/existing-partners?viewall=true
Hikvision is not in "Existing Partners" anymore.
It's too silent for marketing campaign.


U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 21, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Hikvision is not in "Existing Partners" anymore.

You can't see it anymore unless you pay $25 to help offset the cyber risk and extreme vetting that a page like that would require.

U
Undisclosed #2
Nov 25, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Would be interested in what Steve Bocking thinks, ex Genetec Manager, hired by Hikvision to lead ivms 5200 rollout and 3rd party integrations.

He might know a thing or two about it...

Hikvision Hires Ex-Genetec Manager

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