For Religious Reasons, Would You Refuse To Do An Install?

This is a major topic in the US right now, with the Indiana legislation and Memories Pizza.

In the security industry, integrators go on site to different businesses / organizations.

To use a less politically charged example, I know of security integrators who would jump at the chance to do a strip club install and others who would flat refuse.

Update: one member shared an example of servicing a system in a gay bathhouse where the patrons were having sex while the technicians serviced the system. Would you refuse such a scenario?

So what is your take? Vote:

I turned down a job at a sleezy strip club that was constantly in the paper for drugs and prositution. I didn't want to be associated with it in anyway.

Can you name the club, and provide directions?

(for science).

Sometimes the strip club owners want video so they can spot and stop the prostituion and drugs.

I agree, but in this case, the owner was the sleezy one.

Are people reading the question wrong or trolling? 75% say yes?

It's 4 votes so far as it just went live.

Jon, what is your take?

Let's just say I'm not a judgmental person. I would work for any paying client that offered a safe, legal work environment. As others have said above, working in a strip club may be difficult for me as well, due to it just being awkward. I also wouldn't want to work at a pig farm, or slaughterhouse. I have worked at a coiled steel processing facility in the past, but wouldn't likely return, due to safety reasons. I would rather work with more traditional businesses and orgs. There are lines I won't cross, but it wouldn't be about my judgment of a person's lifestyle.

I would not want to install at a gentlemen's club. The odds of coming home covered in glitter are far too great.

Im actually pretty religious, however I'm also a libertarian and believe people should have freedom to live however they choose. I'm not going to deny someone our security services because of religious reasons. I think if anything that would be going against my religious views. At the same time, I have no problem allowing other security companies the right to choose who they sell too. It's as much their right to discriminate as it is their right to worship the God of their choosing. As long as that discrimination doesn't lead to violence.

"It's as much their right to discriminate as it is their right to worship the God of their choosing."


If a business owner doesn't want to serve women or Native Americans then they have this right to discriminate - and you equate this to freedom of religion?

As long as that discrimination doesn’t lead to violence/theft…etc. It’s absolutely their right.

A golf club has the right to accept only rich applicants, a gun club has the right to only accept gun enthusiasts, a night club has the right to turn away guys when theres too many dudes (aka ladies night), a women's organization has the right to deny male applicants, an African America scholarship fund has the right to deny hispanics and caucasians. The Native American reservation has the right to deny anyone admittance into their tribe. A religion has the right to deny admittance to someone who’s views of god do not align with their views. Should I keep going?

Personally, I don’t discriminate based on race/religion/gender/sexual orientation…etc. and do not believe anyone should. But I will NOT be the one who says someone else can’t.

Forcing an individual, business or organization to do something is no way to teach tolerance/acceptance. Personally, if someone denies me access to their business based on my religion. I have no problem turing around and taking my money elsewhere (this has happened to me).

I did a strip club and didn't feel bad about it. I was more amazed with the technology in the P3384 than i was with the fact that its a breeding ground for sin.

The worse project I was involved with was an abortion clinic... I didn't know it was that until I showed up with a technician to troubleshoot a problem, but that was really the worse place I had ever had to go for security. I don't think I would ever do one of those places again.

What was the scary part about the abortion clinic?

People can be moral without being religious.

So if I would refuse to do the strip club for moral reasons, but not religious ones, what should I answer?

Good point. And is that any less or more justifiable than a religious one?

Philosophically, are you okay with your grocery store's "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" policy?

Why or why not?

And what I'm trying to rationalize (on my own) is that 'morality' is not absolute. There's the rub.

Read Sam Harris' The Moral Landscape... interesting book.

Philosophically, are you okay with your grocery store's "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service" policy

At a grocery store, yes.

At a strip club, no.

Yup, these are our readers...

I have found in the past that if I dont take a stand and follow my conscious that it always came back to byte me. I would close my business and move on rather that let the politicians take my freedom and give it away to those who dont care about freedom.

Yes I would raise my price so they dont want me to do the job.

Yes I would create a proposal that no one would want me to work for them .

Yes I there are easy way s to make sure I would not violate any laws , and still not do the work.

Always Free no matter who is in charge or what temp gov. official is setting the laws.

Oh, my mistake… I thought I had logged on to a technology forum, not the National Enquirer!

John, perhaps there is not enough technology to talk about, so we have to devolve into to the tabloids?

Rob, there are 3,417 IPVM articles and 2,900+ other discussions to pick from. Feel free to choose from them. Thanks.

Dont Ask, If you dont want to hear the answer, and Freewill is what makes each of us to make our own decisions. Good or Bad an individual thing.

Moral is a decision you or anyone person has to make , not up to me or no other person to make.

I have my own restrictions in life which i have learned protect me from the things which destroy my life and family and the way of life my forefathers died to protect.

Hot Topic , but as your freedoms are being taken away , really need to be addressed.

Christopher, I respect your views, my concern is that when politics and religion are introduced into a forum, it immediately balkanizes people as they move to their respective corners to defend their positions. Nobody on this forum will change my mind about politics or religion, and I will not change anyone else’s deeply held convictions. So topics like this will only devalue a contributor’s future legitimate technical comments, because the contributor will be tagged as from the "other side" of the political spectrum! If people what to hold those types of discussions, there is no shortage of sites to go to.

Yes it is true, I am an old fuddy duddy, but I respect this forum too much to see it devolve into a free-for-all.

How is it a "free for all" to ask how those in our industry would deal with a very legitimate issue that many of us have faced or will face?

I didn't see the goal to "change the mind of anyone" by having this topic up for discussion.

There is too much talent in this industry to be so shallow as to think that my future technical comments may be impacted because I would not do work for a known drug house, terrorist organization, or abortion provider--to give a few examples. Yet, I would do work for a gay bar, strip club, casino or other businesses I may not frequent.

Great question and nice to see other perspectives.

Does anyone else see the absurd irony involved in both sides of this thing? Both sides are crying for freedom!

Right says "I need freedom to practice my religion. I shouldn't have to make cakes for the gays!"

Left says "I need freedom from religion. I want my rainbow cake!"

I just think it's comical how much perspective comes into play when invoking the word freedom. It could go both ways. (Pun intended)

Glad I'm not the only one who sees this irony repeated again and again...

The bakery is not trying to force anyone to be straight, but the gay community is forcing the bakery to take business that they do not want to do. Huge difference.

I think we are comparing apples and oranges here. When you have a storefront business like a bakery, you simply cannot refuse business based upon civil rights infringing reasons. If you have a project based business like we all do here, it's not the same. I'm not advocating people DO refuse service based upon civil rights infringing reasons, but just that it would be much simpler to mask as another reason. If you have a bakery and a gay person walks in and you have no other reason to not sell them a cake, it would be pretty obvious.

Now say two gay men wanted a cake shaped like a penis or some other offensive design, I would completely understand the objection there. However, placing two male figurines on top of a normal wedding cake instead of the normal male and female set shouldn't be that big of a deal.

And if you think your god will banish you to hell for baking a cake for two guys, what does that say about him? If Jesus could dine with prostitutes and thieves, I think he would be OK with you baking a cake for two men who love each other.

If Jesus could dine with prostitutes and thieves, I think he would be OK with you baking a cake for two men who love each other.

Or say installing 8 cameras at a gay wedding hall, for those who don't bake.

Strip club really? Is that so hard! We service the fire protection in a gay bathhouse and they won't stop having sex while our techs are servicing the fire extinguishers and emergency lighting... that's where I draw the line. But with regard to the issue: Is this about freedom of religion or hypocrisy. Christ would be embarrassed of these pharasies. Matt 25:31-46

Robert, thanks for the feedback.

So, members, is it inappropriate or discriminatory to refuse to service a gay bathhouse? It would seem weird to 'require' companies to service heterosexual strip clubs or gay bathhouses, yes or no?

I have no idea what a gay bathhouse is, but if it is a sexual business, I would pass, must as I would any other sexual oriented business.

I'm not sure what I would do if I got request from a 'gay bathhouse', but I'm pretty sure I'd put it on the bottom of the pile.

Would I consider it if I had nothing else? yes. Is that discrimination?

Is it discrimination if you would do a job in a strip club but not a gay bathhouse?

I think a better question would be do you see any difference working for a gay bathhouse vs a gay barbershop. Is it the gay-ness that offends your sensibilities, or is the sexual nature of the business?

For me, it's the latter, the sexual oriented business. There is just a creep factor when it comes to the sex industry IMO. I wouldn't be comfortable.

But a gay barbershop/salon/bakery etc would never be an issue for me.

"For me, it's the latter, the sexual oriented business."

My point was that there are a lot of guys who are perfectly comfortable, if not excited, about girl 'sex' but not guys.

What about them? Are they then discriminating against the gay guy bathhouse when they wouldn't have a problem with the Playboy mansion?

Well, I didn't exactly say that I wouldn't do the job.

The cases we hear about in the news typically have the lines drawn very clearly: So and so is gay or Muslim and is explicitly being refused service by an owner for no other reason for that except for that fact that they are. The owner usually admits this is the case.

That's discrimination. Hard discrimination.

99% of discrimination though is not like this at all. It's soft. It's the realtor that doesn't return phone calls to the otherwise qualified Muslim couple looking for a home. And then doesn't show them the 'good white' neighborhoods. Or the hostess that seats the gay party in a seperate room, out of sight and earshot.

IMHO, that's your everyday discrimination. And I don't condone that.

But I admit it's a fine line between that and putting the bath house on the bottom of the pile.

So to answer your question, I'd probably do the Playboy mansion gig before the gay bathhouse, all things being equal.

Why? Because I would rather not be in a gay sexually charged atmosphere, I think it would be extremely uncomfortable, especially the way Robert describes.

Because I'm not gay, not because I'm anti-gay.

A Hooters-like atmosphere, on the other hand, is easy for me to just ignore.

So is that discrimination?

I'd have to say, I wouldn't refuse to service it ON PRINCIPLE... but I'd certainly not want to actually be working in an area where patrons are... uh, going at it. And that applies whether they're gay, straight, or whatever else they're into. I'm there to do a job, not to watch a show.

Freedom is your right to say no or say yes, or to move on.

How does your saying no to installs compromise the other person.

Not at all, Same with the example of shoes,shirt,cleanlyness.This should be my choice.Not any more. and to boot if you attach the lbg agenda to it Your rights went out the door.

If you have worked in this industry for any time, Im sure you have seen it all. From the gutters in the streets to lives destroyed by actions they mistakenly did or roads taken.

Bars, Stripclubs, Niteclubs , LGB s May work for you and your company standards, values: But not for mine.

I can actually show in the financials where this has provan successfull in my company.

I dont cater to the populas or status quo. I dont compromise NMWTC: This My Choice.

Christ would have you change, turn from, Love those in need,desparation, unlovely, and down and out . Help to change lives.

But he is not just stupid and does not support what would destroy your life in actions that would lead you further from him.

Please dont associate this as the appinion, views, expectation of this site. I take full responsibiliy for My views.

IPVM is a Great Site with Just Professionals who have thier own appionions.

There is a difference between doing an installation or service for a bathhouse (gay or otherwise) while its being actively used by patrons versus that same install or service during off hours. It shouldn't matter what the facility is used for as long as the technician doesn't have to see nudity or sexual activity (unless of course, like some you mentioned - he/she WANTS to). Its the same as saying you won't do a security install or service at a Mormon temple because your Catholic or Jewish or some other faith - who cares? You have a product/service, they have a need & money to pay for - do the project and put your politics, bigotry & religion aside. Has anyone else noticed that pretty much EVERYWHERE there is strife in the world - "religion" seems to be the root cause???

No, Meghan, religion is not the real root cause of strife in the world, but that is a whole other argument.

The question is where do you draw the line, and what is or should be legal? 60 years ago it might have been illegal for a black owned business who were the only ones capable of providing a product or service might have been legally charged with not doing business with a Klan member or whites only business. It would have been illegal, but it wouldn't have been right. And not so obvious then as it is now.

For Hal's example below, not doing business with NAMBLA would be more justifiable since they engage in illegal activities that are their stated beliefs. But you can't refuse service to a mosque because you think they might be terrorists....... or if they are under investigation for financing terrorists, can you? (Or a Christian Church openly supporting killing abortion doctors.)

Where do you draw the line? Where do the rights of Jack end and Jane begin?

I don’t think you can draw a line. We all have different opinions on what jobs we will do and what jobs we won’t do. That’s why it’s so important that the government stay out of it. I do believe businesses should be protected from frivolous lawsuits. If there’s no protection, anyone could claim a business didn’t hire or serve them based on gender/race/religion/sexual orientation…etc. The last thing we need is to be put out of business because someone THINKS we didn’t take a job because of their gender/race/religion/sexual orientation…etc.

We offer deep discounts for many religious organizations who don’t have a lot of spending money. We are discriminating ("Discrimination refers to the treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit.") against these religious organizations by offering these discounts. Should laws pass that do not allow discrimination against gender/race/religion/sexual orientation…etc. we may not be able to provide these same discounted services.

*EDIT: I should mention we offer discounts to all non-profits.

We fought for these rights in the 50's and 60's. We cannot go backwards now. It used to be skin color that was the reason why people were refused service. Now, we all of a sudden think sexual orientation/identity is a reasonable criteria to refuse service?

If you don't want to serve the entire public, open a private club and you can pick and choose your members. But if you open a business to the public, you don't get to pick and choose. That was debated and decided 50 years ago.

"But if you open a business to the public, you don't get to pick and choose."

I believe you are alluding to the US Federal Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits "discrimination in public accommodations".

I ask this in all seriousness: If I am catering your wedding or installing cameras in your office or taking photos of you in your house, does this act cover that?

I don't believe it does, but I'm far from an attorney, so don't take it as fact.

But, playing devils advocate here, I don't have a published price list for every single product I sell, so if I decided to quote your given gay bathhouse well above list price to bid myself out of the work, I don't think there is any illegality there. Or, simply say that you are already booked and can't take on the work.

The difference being that we are project based businesses and not a retail type store. If the question was you own a security retail store and sell products to the public, could you refuse to sell items to a gay couple? I don't think you could get away with that. But, again, that's probably not the case with any of us here.

Jon, I would refer you to my comments from 3 days ago.

Freedom of expression/religion is not confined within the walls of a home/church. If someone wants to practice their proclaimed religion by refusing service to someone, who I am to tell them it’s not their right to do so.

I am not going to sit online and debate this, I will defend all types of people, gay, straight, black, white, tolerant and non-tolerant. As long as a person doesn’t harm another, people are allowed to have their own views and express them in their homes, churches, businesses, social media..etc.

As John Honovich said, we've tackled this from all angles. Unless there's something new to add, let's be done and move on.

And that right to practice religion is not absolute, just as free speech isn't. You can't cry fire in a theater and you cannot discriminate against people for certain reasons. It's the law in certain places, as we have discovered.

If there are not jobs that you would refuse due to religious or moral convictions, then I would have to question the strength of your convictions. How about the NAMBLA (North America Man-Boy Love Association), a pro-pedophilia organization?

How is that a legal venture?

Because thoughtcrime laws have yet to be passed. All in due time.

I see your point, but the basis of the org is illegal activity. How would you expect that to be protected?

Homosexuality used to be illegal, but people fought to legalize it. Interracial marriage was illegal. Alcohol was illegal. Weed was illegal. This is nothing new.

Thought crime does exist. It is called Hate Crime, which I vehemently oppose because it is an additional punishment for having thoughts that are above the act itself.

It's legal because they say that they are trying to change the law, but they don't break the law today. It's no different than pro-marajuana groups 5 years ago.

Don't forget, homosexuality used to be illegal too.

What ever happened to a business' right? Remember the signs that were posted at every door that said "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"? I miss those days. I am not religious at all. Maybe I am a border-line Atheist with the truth being told. You asked, here is my $.02

Any government or municipality needs to remove themselves from this media firestorm. Someone in here already said it. If you don't want to asociate yourselves with a business, don't do business there. It's really quite simple. I personnaly refuse to do business with any one that has the sign at their front door that says "NO CONCEAL AND CARRY WEAPONS" This is MY choice.

As for basing the fact that you want to take or refuse a job based on religious reasons, well, thats your right to refuse or accept IMO. If it is what you think is morally right, good for you. I personnaly wouldn't want anything to do with a "gay bathhouse" or a drug dealing strip club owner/pimp. These are my personal choices. I really don't want anyone taking those choices away from me.

If I was a baker and a LGB couple asked me to bake a cake, I think I would probably do it. If you think that is wrong well thats your choice. Money is money to me. If I was asked to work in a distusting environment like the gay bath house, I would refuse.

Call it cowardly if you want but I do post without disclosing my name because I am not 100% sure what the owner of our company's take is on this and I do like my job. Politics and Religion can ruin a career.

You can still choose who you would like to serve, as long as the criteria isn't protected by civil rights. If someone isn't dressed properly, smells, is too loud, what have you, refusing to serve them is perfectly fine.

However, you may not refuse service based on race, gender, sexual preference/identity, handicap, religion, etc.

"However, you may not refuse service based on race, gender, sexual preference/identity, handicap, religion, etc."

What US law specifically prohibits refusing service based on sexual preference?

I'm not sure if there is a federal law, but I do know that many states have added it to the list of prohibited reasons to discriminate.

However, you may not refuse service based on ...sexual preference/identity...

So far this only applies to doctors (medical services) and realtors (housing services), in selected states, check your local listing.

The butcher, baker and camera maker might not be added to the list anytime soon.

You are correct that it is a state by state, or even city by city issue. My state of Ohio doesn't afford any protections, however Colorado does, for example.

But not against bigoted bakers or intolerant integrators, yes/no?

In Colorado, yes to bakers, no to integrators

Thanks, you're correct.

Colorado has expanded its Anti-discrimination laws to include transgender/sexual preference. Which is great...

Though I think they may be going a bit too far with this clause

Harassment may include... intentional misuse of gender pronouns and names.

Being cited for using the wrong pronoun when referring to a transgendered individual seems tricky. Even if they look to be a male, if you think they are trying look like a female, then you must say Ms.?

I personnaly refuse to do business with any one that has the sign at their front door that says "NO CONCEAL AND CARRY WEAPONS" This is MY choice.

Given all the furor the last few years over the Second Amendment, I'm surprised this hasn't resulted in similar "media firestorms" to the Cake Incident.

"It's my Constitutionally-protected right to be LGBTQ; this store is violating those rights by refusing to serve me."

"It's my Constitutionally-protected right to carry a Glock; this store is violating those rights by refusing to serve me."

But being Canadian, of course, this is none of my business... *whistles innocently*

The second amendment does not speak about concealed carry afaik.

Tell that to the gun lobby...

I don't know about all areas of the country, but here in Ohio, we are an open carry state, which means you can open carry anywhere. However, you will likely face inducing panic charges if you choose to open carry when all the worried people call the cops on you. Unless you wear a badge, you should probably conceal carry to avoid issues.

You can open carry in the state that I am in as well. The absolute worst that a business owner can do is ask you to do is leave. If you refuse, they do have the right to press trespassing charges.

I won't say no to any job. But when we have issues of any type - we just don't like the owner, the job isn't safe for our techs, the job is not our style.... We just price it so we are not in the running. Thus far, this approach has worked out for us. In some cases, we simply choose to be a "no bid" because our work load will push the project out a few months.

Well Where does it end, When Does the Govt Stop.

If you cannot even choose what you do, who you do it for, and when you dont want to .

Then What!

Your Freedom to Express Your appinion, (not like , not work for , not do for ), even choose where you go : is GONE!

One Law at a time. Then to take what you have worked hard for because you said no.

Well Folks : isnt that communism or facism or even socialism.

If you cannot choose without fear of govt. intervention and thats what it is.

As for me when the situation like the cake making company happens well then its time to shut down and go on welfare, Bleed the Beast , Channel all assets into foreign accounts so you own nothing.

You dont have anything to take, set up protected foreign asset accounts where they cannot be sued out from under your control.

Its time to speak out . Keep what you do in the closet , not in my face where i have to see it.

Its a matter of time before you dont even have an appinion due to the status quo( minority s)

No Decisions unless it aggrees with all the govt agencys

As for me I will choose , close down , go some where else where we are free.

What happened america . This Wont Solve the Problem , it will just make us more devisave to figure out how and ways out .

If you have not figured it out Im angry that you cannot even run your own business anymore.

But You can pay high taxes 20 times over with each transaction, each time you purchase, sell, buy, trade, even to die at the burial expenses.

Not to be combative, but these laws aren't new and have been in place for 50 years. If you own a public accommodations business, you cannot discriminate based upon protected statuses. This isn't anything new. If you don't want to serve the public, create a private club and you can be as selective as you like.

I agree

Not anger , Pure Disappointment and Disallusionment in the System of Laws

Do what you can to make a difference and change the current situations and laws.

In Fact most of the laws are not created for our best interest , but for the interest of the wealth in this country.

Lawmakers are exempt from the laws that they create. Some laws are non exempt , but there are many that would send you and me to prison and they have diplomatic immunity.

Kind of unbalanced and flat wrong.

Just Beware, Think Before You Act, Speak, Do certain Actions in public.

Walk Softly and carry a big stick (Gun )

It looks like we have exhausted most angles on this. Unless you have a new anecdote or experience to share on their security side, let's wrap this up. Thanks.

I'm reasonably religious, and I've installed systems in houses of worship for religions other than my own. And it felt weird every time. But I acted professional, and I did the best job I could, because everyone deserves safety and security.