Critique This New Whole Foods Access And Video System

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Brian Rhodes
Feb 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Some interesting security system choices in a new Florida 40,000 sqft Whole Foods store.

First, doors:

1) The reader is hung upside down.

2) Though it is a new store, they are using an antiquated 6005 HID Proxpoint reader for 125 kHz credentials, totally cracked and easily copied credentials.

3) There is a fire pull station hung immediately opposite the reader on the inside, in the spot where RTE pushbuttons should normally be hung.  Is this even legal?

4) The door loop powering the latch retraction on the exit device is exposed and would not be difficult to cut.  Should this be improved? How?

On the video side are using lots of Avigilon cameras (easily 50 to 100):

5) Video coverage appears dense, but the extremely long pendant mounts might be an aesthetic issue, not to mention they may sway e.g., when the HVAC is on.  Is there a better option here?

What do you think?

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Lynn Harold
Feb 13, 2018

Maybe they hired the security contractor off Amazon Prime.

 

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Brian Rhodes
Feb 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

You've burned both Amazon and Whole Foods in one statement.  +1 respect.

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UE
Undisclosed End User #1
Feb 13, 2018

Item#3, why is an RTE device needed?  This looks like a free egress rim panic device.

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Brian Rhodes
Feb 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

The issue isn't whether RTE is needed, it is whether or not the firepull should be hung there, potentially confused for RTE.

I do not know if there is a global model code that forbids this, but the AHJs in my area would not allow it.  They'd mandate the firepull be mounted away from the door frame but still in the direction of egress.  On standees or posts if the window didn't provide the right mounting surface.

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Brian Rhodes
Feb 13, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I found the applicable code: NFPA72 17.14

An AHJ could object to placement on an exit door frame as not being 'secure' (frames are too narrow to match all anchor points on the pull), a window may not provide adequate contrasting background color, mounting it on the frame in RTE position may not be 'conspicuous', nor is the pull protected by a tamper cover.

As is often the case, it probably comes down to the AHJ's preferences.  This Whole Foods likely passed inspection without a problem (hence open to public), but other areas/other AHJs might have had quite a punchlist.

 

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Brandon Knutson
Feb 14, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Definitely gonna see some accidental FA activations! (#kidstoucheverything)  

JH
John Honovich
Feb 14, 2018
IPVM

Where should the fire alarm be put? Curious as this is not my area of expertise :)

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Brandon Knutson
Feb 14, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I don't know as I have limited knowledge of FA system design. I do know I've evacuated facilities many times because a pull station was too close to the door (or too close to an existing light switch).

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Brian Rhodes
Feb 14, 2018
IPVMU Certified

If the pull isn't moved, then place an anti-tamper cover over it, ie:

I'd petition to move it right about 4 feet right (off the frame) to a permanent stand affixed to the ponywall.  Of course, this costs more money, which is why it likely was avoided to start with.

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JH
John Honovich
Feb 14, 2018
IPVM

Related, does anyone know who is Whole Foods integrator? Is it 1 national? Regionals in different areas? Are they subcontracting?

Whole Foods has money and generally spends on quality (they do have e.g., all those brand new Avigilon cameras) so it's weird that this part is so sloppy.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Feb 18, 2018

Regional. Protection 1 does some of the new stores CCtV & burg, don't think they did their access control.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #12
Feb 21, 2018

Protection1

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MM
Michael Miller
Feb 13, 2018

Good to see they finally got rid if the Hik :)

 

 

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Ralph Azzi
Feb 14, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I don’t see a problem on the video side, apparently the only way to mount these cameras is by doing this custom made drop down ceiling mounts.

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Feb 14, 2018

A head scratcher for me is who is still selling the JPEG2000 180/360 cameras circa 2011/2010?  Maybe this is why they are mounted so low: no movement of the heads on those units.

The reader being hung upside down is hilarious!

Is there any kind of power transfer hinge that can be used to route through the door to the crashbar?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Feb 14, 2018

I also get a kick out of folks mounting readers upside down, one of my techs did it yesterday in fact and we all had a good laugh at his expense. Needless to say he fixed it ASAP.

That said if the whole install looks like an upside down reader (like this install does) then you have a bad install which is doomed to give trouble in the long run.

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Michael Miller
Feb 14, 2018

A head scratcher for me is who is still selling the JPEG2000 180/360 cameras circa 2011/2010? Maybe this is why they are mounted so low: no movement of the heads on those units.

 Those cameras are not JPEG2000 cameras they are the EOL H.264 cameras. 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Feb 19, 2018

The first generation HD series?

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Daniel S-T
Feb 19, 2018

I can't find any model numbers, but there certainly are transfer hinges that can be used. Tiny little wire running through the hinge with connections at both ends of the hinge. Clean.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 14, 2018

That's great!  Besides the reader upside down and off center that armored loop is ridiculously bad.  If you can't afford an electrified hinge at least install the loop properly.  I give that loop a month before some kid rips it off or worse and it becomes a legal issue.  

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Feb 14, 2018

Agree on the loop install, to me this is the clear indicator that whoever did this had no idea what they were doing. Either a first time tech or a DIY'er. Mounting a reader upside down is a classic mistake but not pointing the loop down is un-explainable...... funny story on loops - one of my more experienced techs once installed all the loops at a daycare facility with them pointed up!! His reasoning? So the kids can't pull on them! (He did mount them up as high as he could) You can well imaging the loops looked even worse than these and are good for a head shaking laugh every time I'm onsite.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Feb 14, 2018

There really is not much wrong with this install

 

1. The pull station has to be located within 5 ft of the door. If you will notice, there is plate glass on either side of the door. The mullion is the most logical place. 

 

2. The door is pivot mounted so electric transfer hinges can’t be used to conceal wire, but it is encased in an armor flex,which would protect it from any incidental damage or mischievous activity. The door is likely a fail secure retraction latch, so by cutting the cable the worst that could happen is the door stays locked.

 

3. The reader upside down is sloppy, but irrelevant as to its operation. 

 

4. This job appears to either be a retrofit security install, or new construction done without a coordinated security design. 

The architect should have specified a rim strike type door rather than retracting latch in order to conceal the cable, a larger aluminum frame in the storefront to accommodate the pull station. But none of that is generally within the control of the security contractor. 

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Michael Silva
Feb 14, 2018
Silva Consultants

2. The door is pivot mounted so electric transfer hinges can’t be used to conceal wire, but it is encased in an armor flex,which would protect it from any incidental damage or mischievous activity. The door is likely a fail secure retraction latch, so by cutting the cable the worst that could happen is the door stays locked.

There are devices known as electric pivots which can be used to transfer wiring to the door in a concealed fashion. These are made by companies such as Rixson.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Feb 14, 2018

Excellent. Haven’t seen these. Thanks for the post

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U
Undisclosed #9
Feb 14, 2018

Personal opinion -- those Rixson hinges are the absolute devil. I believe they use 28awg wires, which are not only an absolute monster to terminate, but they can typically not be used with a full "EL"-type device, i.e. those with a full 16A inrush, because the wires are not heavy gauge enough. They CAN work, but it depends on how long the wire run is, etc. I've had cases where I've doubled the wires to try and help, but the problem with that is that it eliminates your option for integral RTE.

If we have a pivot door like that, my preferred method is to mount as short of a loop as you can possibly get at the TOP of the door frame, usually coming in to the door right next to the door closer. It can't be grabbed by children or accidentally by anyone else, it's inconspicuous (especially if you get a loop to match or paint to match the door/frame), and it is the best guarantee that you can get to reduce current issues on high-inrush devices since it's one less splice point.

Given the choice, I would push the owner to specify a continuous hinge the full length of the door with an electrical prep for an electrified hinge. This keeps your wires encased in the door, and is a much longer-lasting hinge as well.

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Michael Silva
Feb 14, 2018
Silva Consultants

Valid points. Rixson does have a model that uses two #18 conductors specifically designed to support latch retraction exit devices. However, this would not also provide conductors for an integral RTE as you indicate.

Command Access offers a variety of electric pivots including models that provide #18 conductors for the exit device, plus either 2, 4, or 6 smaller conductors which can be used for the RTE or other purposes.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Feb 14, 2018

Appreciate the input - putting the loop at the top of the door doesn't really occur to most but seems to make a lot of sense - ever encountered any unforeseen problems with doing that on storefront type aluminum/glass doors?  

U
Undisclosed #9
Feb 14, 2018

As long as the loop is installed properly (i.e. doesn't hang down too far, isn't too tight, etc) and there is enough room for the wire to flex between the door and the frame, there should be very few issues. There are no significant stress points on the wire or the loop, and it is kept out of the way of small children and as..........jerks. :)

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Ross Vander Klok
Feb 14, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Had to mark disagree right at the outset "There really is not much wrong with this install"  Aesthetics wise alone it is pretty bad and (I thought) aesthetics were a big deal to Whole Foods.  Functionality may be fine, but if it looks bad that is a failure in my book. 

Of course, my background of working with fancy shcmancy pain in the butt designer architects that cared absolutely zero about the functionality of an entire building let alone security devices has probably clouded my vision....

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 14, 2018

If it looks like that on the outside I think it's safe to say they didn't know what they were doing and the wiring and everything else is a mess as well.  It works out well for me to see this since I get called in to fix messes like this when the electrician (lowest bidder) that tried to install it who was hired by the GC for the project won't go back to service it.  

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Feb 14, 2018

I admit it is easy to do and I have done it in the past but I try not to impugn others’ work without first knowing all the facts and the context of the project.

The installation was clearly not coordinated, but from what can be seen in the pictures appears to meet code and is assumed to work.

We do not have any background information to assess blame for how it looks. But this is generally what winds up happening when the door contractor, the architect, the owner and the security contractor aren’t properly coordinating. 

 

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U
Undisclosed
Feb 14, 2018

upside down prox reader exposing set screw and placing LED at wrong position for end user use.  That can't be on someone's "we always do it this way" list, can it?  

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Feb 14, 2018

who knows. I have installed many hundreds of door access systems and have had many helpers working in projects and once in a while they do stupid stuff like this. It’s not the end of the world. But - it should have been caught by the lead tech or the architect prior to the job being turned over. 

Just reinforces the notion that the whole job was uncoordinated. 

 

MM
Michael Murphy
Feb 21, 2018

Power transfer kit should have been higher up where it wont catch on items moving thru the door space.

UE
Undisclosed End User #5
Feb 14, 2018

#4 is on secure side and armored, cutting it would leave it locked, as it's probably fail secure, I do agree that it does look crappy.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 14, 2018

You can't defend that install saying it's OK. It might work but it is a mess and it's an amateur job.  

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Tony Warren
Feb 14, 2018

 A concealed door loop from Command Access should have been utilized for the latch retraction wire transfer, or an EPT from Vonduprin or Securitron could have been used as well.

U
Undisclosed
Feb 14, 2018

What about the crazy long conduit for the cameras? Is that really ok?  Don't they sway?  I see these in stores, I assumed it was normal.  Do they really not expect someone to try to climb that?

If I go to my local wholePaycheck/Amazon Locker Drop and take pictures of the card readers at the door it'll be ok, right?  I can just tell the guard it's a fad I saw on the internet?  I'm gonna post it on a Reddit thread, right?

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Brian Rhodes
Feb 14, 2018
IPVMU Certified

 I can just tell the guard it's a fad I saw on the internet?

If this happens, just point forcefully at them and loudly ask "DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?!?"

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Undisclosed End User #7
Feb 14, 2018

CASE CLOSED!!

Respectfully submitted,

Mr. undisclosed because I should be working, A-Z

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U
Undisclosed #8
Feb 14, 2018

Poor attention to detail. The power transfer loop on the door got me.

No sense in even mentioning the cameras.

Would not hire.

 

U
Undisclosed #9
Feb 14, 2018

To the OP --

1/2 - The reader being mounted upside down is inexcusable, as is the choice of a 125kHz reader.

3 - No issue with the location of the fire pull whatsoever. No RTE is needed and certainly not required, and a door frame is absolutely good for a "secure mount" if it's installed properly. There is no logical reason to mount it elsewhere. I might recommend a cover for a place like Whole Foods, but it doesn't look like this is meant to be a high-traffic door so maybe not.

4 - I addressed the door loop a bit in my previous response, but what I didn't mention is that the installation of and choice of loop is horrible. They could have used a much shorter loop and obviously it should have been installed much better. However, I see no issues with using a loop in general, although I would of course prefer an EPT of some sort. If using a loop, as noted previously, i'd bring it to the top of the door and bring it in there with as short of a loop as I can get. As mentioned by others, cutting the loop isn't going to do anything except annoy people because surely the panic is fail-secure.

5. No major issue with the cameras, although it could have been done better. There are ways to secure the conduit to prevent it from swaying from HVAC, and the drop is necessary to get the camera angles you inevitably want in a situation like that. There are few other options and no better options that I'm aware of in most retail stores.

 

Overall, there are some unforgivable mistakes for a new and live/commissioned system, but I have most certainly seen much worse in the wild...

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Feb 19, 2018

Unfortunately, there is still a sizable community that does not realize the risks with 125khz credentials. Not everyone is an IPVM subscriber.

U
Undisclosed #9
Feb 21, 2018

I knew that 125kHz readers were garbage long before IPVM. Anyone who even attempts to be knowledgeable within the security industry should know that as well. I wouldn't expect that trunkslammers would necessarily know that, but I also wouldn't expect a trunkslammer to be completing a project for Whole Foods.

Shows how much I know...

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Campbell Chang
Feb 18, 2018

Who is still speccing or installing ProxPoint 125s on greenfield installs?

U
Undisclosed #11
Feb 19, 2018
IPVMU Certified

1. Remove protective film from dome?

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KK
Kurt Kottkamp
Feb 21, 2018

I'm amazed at how many in the "security" field think a RTE is not needed. It's major benefit and function is not to unlock the door on exit, but to shunt the door monitor switch to allow exit and rearm the door once closed. Remember, we are in the SECURITY industry? What's the point of spending a couple grand on a reader controlled door if you don't spend a couple hundred to know if the door is caught on the mat and standing open? Here in NC this is a common dodge that allows unlicensed companies to do access control, because the monitoring of the door is what requires you to have an alarm license. If a door is properly designed, you have a mechanical means of egress anyway, but you still need a RTE (and door position switch), imo. 

 

PS, I've also heard of folks putting a door contact on the door with no REX and only monitoring for door held open. But that allows unauthorized egress all day long if folks tamper with or tape over the latch, or use a key, as long as the door recloses behind them. Door contacts and REX to me are an important part of almost every access controlled door. 

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Brian Rhodes
Feb 21, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Hello Kurt:

Solid comment, thanks.

I think most here would agree that RTE is a good idea for most doors to eliminate the logical errors of 'forced door' alarms like you describe.

That issue is one we spend time addressing in our access training courses, and one of the consultants who replied above, Michael Silva, has his a page on his website detailing the issue (http://www.silvaconsultants.com/solving-the-false-door-forced-open-alarm-problem.html)

In this discussion, absolute 'need' being discussed is determined by life-safety codes.

Considering the door loop, it doesn't appear a maglock is being used, so RTE is not strictly 'needed' per code.  Like you mention, it might still be a great idea, just not 'needed' for code compliance.

Also, I think the doors above are likely dogged down/unlocked during business hours due to public use. The card reader/latch retraction exit device above is likely part of the Whole Foods intrusion alarm system.  The opening manager likely uses the card to disarm the alarm and unlock the secured door first thing in the morning when they arrive.

It might also explain the shoddy install if it was put in by an alarm technician, not an access tech, or someone otherwise unfamiliar or not used to door work.

U
Undisclosed #9
Feb 21, 2018

I don't think anyone is necessarily suggesting that some form of a REX sensor isn't needed, just that the RTE as described above (that would need to be located near where the fire pull is located, suggesting a pushbutton) is not required since there is no maglock. Chances are that the panic device has a built-in REX, so just because you don't see a PIR above or pushbutton next to the door doesn't mean that there is no REX at all.

There is no question that there is no "access control" with a contact and REX. If all you have is a card reader and an electrified lock, you don't have access control, you have "keyless entry". I make that designation very clear with my customers as well on the rare occasion they don't want the contact and REX installed.

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KK
Kurt Kottkamp
Feb 21, 2018

I'm sensitive to it, because as I say, it's a dodge used locally by unlicensed companies. I've had several end users question why we proposed a DC/REX, and invariably when I trace back where those comments came from, it's an unlicensed bidder who told them it wasn't necessary. If the only question concerns code and fire egress, then the reader is not necessary either! Agree with the comments about access control vs keyless entry, but in that case you are educating your customers. As I said, it's just a point of frustration for me, because we have a lot of unlicensed folks trying to do access control systems in this area, and that's how they explain it.... and not surprisingly, this is how their installs often look!

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Daniel S-T
Feb 21, 2018

I can only speak for myself in saying the majority of access control I have done is just readers and strikes. Customer does not want to monitor door state, that's what the intrusion system is for. 

 

Obviously this does not apply to every customer, but most I have dealt with .not having a door contact connected to the access control system does render an RTE device useless, as we always had free egress.

If you want to monitor the state of the door through your access control system, then yes you are correct, an RTE device is basically a must. Though in those instances we used RTE pir's that only shunt, don't release strike .

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KK
Kurt Kottkamp
Feb 21, 2018

Daniel, I respectfully disagree. The intrusion system is for after hours security. What a DC/REX buys you is the knowledge that the door you just spent a couple grand outfitting with a reader, isn't standing or propped open or has had unauthorized access. I also am guessing your a tech or in operations and are being told that by your sales folks mostly? Most customers don't understand what the DC and RX function is for. What I find is that once a customer understands they are generally spending $2-3,000 for the reader, why would you not spend another $250 for the REX and door contact to know whether the door is secure, tampered with or had unauthorized access with a key? 

 

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Daniel S-T
Feb 23, 2018

You are right, some customers, and even sales folks I have dealt with do not understand what the DC and RTE can do in an access control system, and some customers still also just don't care.

One large client really only got access control because they were tired of having to re-key all their buildings every time an employee lost a master key (happened at least twice, as I recall). They did not care about the state of the door during the day, their locksmith fees were just going through the roof.

I understand what a Door Contact and an RTE can do, but I install what was sold, I'm not there to add extras, nor am I going to try to upsell the client, cause that just creates friction with the sales team.

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Michael Silva
Feb 21, 2018
Silva Consultants

One often-overlooked function provided by the door switch/REX combination is the ability of the access control system to reset the door unlock time when the door is opened. For example, to give users plenty of time to enter, you may set the door unlock time to 7 seconds. When someone presents a card to enter, the door will stay unlocked for a full seven seconds, or until the door is opened, whichever comes first.

If you don't have a door switch, this feature doesn't work, and the door will always stay unlocked for the full 7 seconds. This increases the potential for tailgating after a user passes through a door.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #13
Feb 21, 2018

While this CURRENT Whole Foods security setup may leave something to be desired, I wouldn't be surprised if it improves SUBSTANTIALLY over the next few years.

After all, Amazon will need to test its Amazon Rekognition software SOMEWHERE, and why not do it in Amazon-owned facilities such as Amazon warehouses and Whole Foods markets? And they'll certainly want to get the hardware right for THAT...

https://aws.amazon.com/rekognition/

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U
Undisclosed
Feb 21, 2018

No exterior readers casually visible at the Whole Paycheck on Telegraph in Berkeley.  Cameras looked rationally mounted except for one mildly wonky conduit loop outside near the electric car chargers.  I didn't go nuts taking pictures because Berkeley's finest's CSI crew was stopping there to buy take-out dinner at the time and "I'm gonna drop a photo on IPVM.COM" didn't seem like it would make a good story..  Amazon drop box is mashed against a wall near the front, as you'd expect it to be.  (Probably not armed) guard on duty.  It's Berkeley, that's rational behavior for a merchant at that location.  Looked like sturdy civilized door installations all around.

At Berkeley Bowl (the local market Whole Paycheck would love to crush) the cameras hang on pipe stalks too but it's not cable conduit it's whompin' huge (1.5-2 inch?) steel pipe.  And not every register/lane's camera has the same diameter pipe so there's obviously some body english in the interpretation of the spec.  (And the cashier login passwords appear to be well over 6 characters.)

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Undisclosed #11
Feb 21, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I didn't go nuts taking pictures because Berkeley's finest's CSI crew was stopping there to buy take-out dinner at the time and "I'm gonna drop a photo on IPVM.COM" didn't seem like it would make a good story.

You must not have had your Ron Burgandy lanyard and press pass handy.

MM
Michael Murphy
Feb 21, 2018

I can see using the long mounts so as not to see just heads, but more of faces.

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