Subscriber Discussion

DW Spectrum. Their Server Or Your Server?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 02, 2018

We are slowly working our way away from Dahua, and looking at DW, Hanwha and Vivotek. I am ready to cough up a lung looking at what DW wants for a Blackjack server. It may not be so bad for a larger install but for ~ 16 cameras, a $2900 MSRP seems high. I know I am not going to get the same Dahua $200 NVR pricing but, ouch.

I looked at their NVR but it does not seem to support Spectrum.

What are you DW guys using for a recorder? Do we need to learn how to build servers?

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 02, 2018

Keep in mind you get 4 free Spectrum licenses when you purchase their servers but you also get free Spectrum licenses when you purchase their cameras.  If you are using DW camera with free licenses I would just build your own.  If you want to keep your cost down as much as possible I would recommend you learn Linux. 

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Nov 02, 2018

I agree with the Linux comment. So easy to get up and running  No command line necessary. If you want more control, you only need to know about 5 commands.  Once the server is installed, which takes maybe 10 minutes, the software is installed in less than 5 minutes  No windows bloat ware or lengthy windows updates. Then you.go to a client pc and configure the system.  There are plenty or remote desktop apps.for Linux for easy maintenance as well. 

 

I recently set up 3 virtual machines on Ubuntu 18.04 and installed Hanwha wave. It was a matter of minutes, and it was all easily done remotely.  After the install it only needs 1 reboot for the latest updates, and the server software needs a few modules to download automatically during the installation. 

 

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Cary Menage
Jan 27, 2020
IPVMU Certified

Im curious if you or anyone here on IPVM is running DW Spectrum on Linux without a GUI. If so, did you just modify the run levels? And did you gain resources as a result?

Thanks

JP
Joe Piacentino
Jun 23, 2020

Absolutely, this is actually recommended. While you are more than capable of running both client and server at the same time it does tax your resources. Use a server just to be a server, no GUI necessary. Install only the server software. Full configuration available through any local or cloud admin client.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Jun 23, 2020

I'm running the WAVE version. I prefer to install the software via command-line. Installing on a server only OS without GUI is simple. Same commands. Just installl the package, accept the license, and you are done.

Here is a video showing the installation. It is old and shows using an old command. I usually use sudo apt install ./filename.abc

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LB
Lee Brown
Jun 23, 2020

I agree with Joe and UM2. IMO its actually easier under Ubuntu or Debian to run without the Desktop / GUI. Security updates and the like take less time without all the GUI packages.

We have our media-servers setup as headless virtual machines for snapshots of the VM image, portability and better resource utilization of the servers that they are hosted on.

If an update breaks something in DW then we can then rollback to the pre-update snapshot. Virtualization aside, DW/NX/WAVE performs exceedingly well on headless Linux.

The screenshot below depicts resource utilization on a headless server recording 8, 12MP and 16,4MP H.264 cameras at max frame rate , max quality and full resolution using on the primary channel. Note that we only allocated 2 vCPU cores and 8GB RAM.

Three network interfaces are used to provide camera video, client and storage connections. Only the storage interface is shown in the screenshot.

IPVM Image

Acknowledging that your needs may be vastly different, I wanted to provide you with some insight into our setup for running DW headless on Linux.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 02, 2018

Right now its free licenses with varifocal and 2 for 1 with a fixed lens camera. But at distro prices, it still seems like a lot of money.

 

EDIT. Meaning the licenses are cheap enough that it doesn't seem worth the difference.

 

What is the cost savings in Linux? Not having to buy a Windows OS? I also see DW runs 8GB RAM on Linux and 16GB on Windows machines. Is that part of it as well?

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Nov 03, 2018

Cost of windows licenses plus core or CAL if using the server versions. Plus cost of anti virus software and volume license charges if applicable for large organizations.

Plus cost of administering windows servers is typically higher on windows.  

CW
Christopher Wise
Nov 03, 2018

what are you looking to spend and how much storage?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 03, 2018

Its not how much do we want to spend, its more of finding the most cost-effective solution. Keep in mind, we have been selling Dahua NVR's from an OEM and we get pretty good prices. We need to find something betetr than a $3,000 server for less than 16 cameras.

 

You think something like this would work for 16 cameras or less? desktop

 

I also see DW has CaaS, camera as a system that has Spectrum built into the camera. You can add a NAS unit to expand storage. I wonder if you can use any NAS or if you have to use theirs?

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 03, 2018

Have you reviewed the specs for Spectrum? That is the best way to figure out what hardware you need.  You can use any network share for the CaaS line or Spectrum. 

U
Undisclosed #3
Nov 04, 2018

The specs on the DW boxes are weak and using old outdated processors. The microcenter pc you listed is much more powerful than the DW system and likely overkill. You dont even need to spend 600 to best DW. You can buy a 300-500 Eighth Generation Intel i3-i5 and it will be several times more powerful than the 1700 DW system.

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PK
Patrick Kelly
Nov 03, 2018

UI#1 

Our DW-BJCUBE2T-LX and DW-BJBOLT2T-LX both have an MSRP of $1,752. As mentioned above our Double Down licence program for our PIP dealers provides free licenses with our vari-focal and panoramic (incl fish-eye) cameras  and 2 for 1 with our  fixed lens cameras. Our PIP dealers also have the ability to participate in our project registration program for additional discounts. 

Our 4MP CaaS product includes the licence and either a 64GB or 128GB on-board storage and is really designed for the small business, with no recurring charges. You can use our NAS device or another of your choosing. Using our hardware,  makes our ability to support you in the future. But if you choose to use your own hardware we will provide support as much as we can. 

We include a 5 year warranty on our cameras and server/NAS hard drives. Both the Cube, the Bolt and CaaS can be connected to DW Cloud for remote connectivity and management at no additional charge.

Feel free to reach out to me with any questions or if you would like to discuss any further. Now I am off to support my local American Lung Association. 

Thanks,

Patrick 

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UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Nov 04, 2018

Patrick,

If building our own server, is Spectrum optimized for multithreaded CPU's or would focusing on higher single thread  performance (higher clock speed, etc)  be better? This is assuming the box is dedicated to the VMS, not running other apps or virtual machines.

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John Bazyk
Nov 05, 2018
Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

Build your own server, the servers from DW are meh. I've had a lot of issues with the cube servers that are still unresolved. 

You can build a server for 16 cameras pretty cheap. It takes less processing power and memory than you think. I run 4 cameras on a raspberry pi 2 and barely utilize the CPU and use about half the memory. Your best bet is to go to the NX Witness and look up server specs and build off their specs. Even with server-side motion, the requirements are minimal. 

I have servers out there built on an I3 NUC with 2GB of memory, an SSD for the OS and an enterprise 1TB drive for storage and it runs better than more of the stuff from DW. 

As for licensing, we have had great success with this camera. DWC-MV84WiA It's not the best camera in the world but with a free license, the price is right. It seems to perform well enough and we haven't had any reliability issues with it. It does require too much bandwidth IMO, I think they need to work on that. 

IMO NX/DW Spectrum isn't for a company that's looking to just slam something in. You could just buy a cube and probably be happy. If you have some technical aptitude you can really do some fun things with NX/DW and get pretty creative. It's an extremely flexible platform. Just realize that once you go outside of the "normal" stuff DW offers at ADI your support is pretty limited and it's really going to be up to you to figure it out. We have good people on staff including myself so we get pretty creative sometimes. 

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 05, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

We have never sold a DW manufactured server. We generally sell Dell servers. On the low end, we use the T30 towers. For larger systems, we use the R540 rack servers. We tried building small systems using cube style barebones, like the DW Cube, but we feel the additional space in a mini tower helps dissipate the heat from storage much better. 

The biggest tip I can give you is to make sure your OS drives are pro level SSD drives and use at least surveillance drives for the video storage. If data retention is paramount, use enterprise drives in a RAID system. Most of our clients are happy with simple JBOD systems using surveillance drives. 

As far as OS is concerned, we generally use Win10 Pro for our servers. We don’t have the depth of experience with Linux as we do Windows. Also support for Windows is much easier to find, especially drivers and such. You also don’t have to teach most users how Windows works. They already use it. For the $150 licenses, Win10 Pro is pretty inexpensive. 

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TM
Ty Mullen
Jan 27, 2020
COR Security, Inc.

So you order the Dell machines with no OS. Then purchase and install the Windows 10 once you receive it?

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Richard Rosley
Nov 05, 2018
A-TECH Security, Inc.

We have built and sold hundreds of DW pc's and we have our own PC's built for us to our specifications in house. We always use SSD Drives for the Windows OS, but if you are savvy you can use Linux too, key here is a SSD drive for processing the video as we have found that with large systmes using spinning drives for the os cna miss video processing. Next we use Western Digital Purple Hard drives for our recording storage as well as in any NAS if we build them. We also use 2 network cards or dual port network cards to isolate the customers network from our own camera network. 8gb or 16gb of ram works great but feel free to go more if you like.

We use i5 processors for our smaller camera jobs approx 10 or less cameras and i7 for larger systems and DW can setup fail-over redundant server which we use on systems over 20-30 cameras or more. This allows us to balance the camera load and then if one pc should need to reboot or fail the other will carry the load within about 3-5 seconds.

The client software works in Linux, Windows & Mac, and the app works in IOS & Droid.

DW is great, and as mentioned the software is actually made by NX Optix or NX Witness software, but in the US you must purchase license & use DW Spectrum software through DW or now Samsung has their version for more money.

NX Optix has a great website for questions and specs and info as needed the DW & NX sales guys & tech support are all great to work with and the DW Spectrum software just continues to get better and better with each new release. The licenses are good for life and can be moved from pc to pc.

Our clients all love their systems and we remotely support them by installing a commercial license of TeamViewer so we can remotely manage any needs that arise thus saving a truck roll. We also strongly suggest managed network switches so you can reboot cameras as needed.

Lastly, the DW cloud is awesome and works thru almost all firewalls and allows the end user to view the cameras and manage users via the cloud without having to port forward any ports.

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UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Nov 07, 2018

if building, for example, a dell precision 3630 workstation (i7 8700k/16gb/512gb m.2 ssd for OS) as a dedicated box for a small medium spectrum system is there any benefit to getting a video card (can the program use any of the gpu for video processing) vs using the integrated intel graphics? There would be no local viewing of video using a monitor connected to this box, it would be in/on a rack and connected to using spectrum client software running on  different machines.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 07, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

Generally no. If you needed multiple local displays, it would be important. Otherwise, I can’t think of a reason why the Intel HD Graphics wouldn’t be adequate. 

One thing to note when using a true server platform. If you plan on using remote desktop apps to administer the DW Spectrum software, you WILL want some graphics power. We have one client that blocks cloud access, but allows remote desktop access. The servers don’t have graphics cards, which restricts us from launching the full client on the server. This is restricting at times and requires truck rolls to properly administer the system. 

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Nov 07, 2018

 

If the client won't open due to Vidor card limitations, first make sure you have an actual driver installed. Often Microsoft installs a generic vga adapter, which won't work. 

Typically, even an on board Intel graphic adapter will work, as long as the drivers are installed. Then you can configure server settings via the client.   I have run the client on many low end pcs with inboard graphics

If it still won't work, and you get a graphics error and the menus won't display, try the below steps.   It has worked for me when running on servers or virtual pcs. 

If the driver won't download, let me know and I can post it elsewhere  

Depending on which flavor of the software you are running, the folder locations for the driver will vary. 

https://support.networkoptix.com/hc/en-us/articles/115013581987-How-to-run-Nx-Desktop-in-limited-GPU-environments

 

Good luck! 

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 07, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

This solution did not work for me. I will say that I was not physically at the server when I tried to use the client. I use Splashtop Business for remote access. I'm not sure if that factors in or not, but the DW Client still said no graphics card available.

UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Nov 09, 2018

I dont think I ever saw an answer to the question on how multithreaded the Spectrum server application is?

For a dedicated box one is building is it better to get a cpu with a higher clock speed but fewer cores  (and therefore better single threaded performance) or more cores but lower clock speed?

 

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Nov 15, 2018

It's well multithreaded. Will use each core. 

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UE
Undisclosed End User #4
Nov 16, 2018

Thanks!

JH
Jay Hobdy
Mar 06, 2019
IPVMU Certified

Jon and John, is there any type of guide or matrix you use to build your own servers? How do you know which parts to spec/use in the server?

 

 

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Jon Dillabaugh
Mar 06, 2019
Pro Focus LLC

I don’t have a reference guide per se, but have built enough to have a “feel” for how much resources we will need for a given project. I know that’s not very helpful to you and am sorry for that. If you want to email me with your exact project details, I would be glad to offer a suggestion on what I would build/use. 

Specs needed:

- Headless server or not

- Imager count

- Imager resolutions

- Frame rates

- Server side or camera side VMD

- Number of clients total vs active

- Retention expectations

- Mounting location and space availability

- Future expansion expectations

- Relative budget for server

Thats a good starter list 🤷🏻‍♂️

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Richard Rosley
Jan 27, 2020
A-TECH Security, Inc.

We build our own i5 & i7 windows 10 pc’s. These work perfect. We use SSD for the os & a second drive for recording it a bad for larger sites. We also use dual network cards so the cameras never touch the customers network or the internet.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Jan 27, 2020

I have installed WAVE on a Linux server running the server command line os. It is very simple. Just follow the instructions to install the package. No need to do anything else besides accept the license agreement. Then use the client on another pc and connect to configure or use web UI for initial setup.

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Cary Menage
Jan 27, 2020
IPVMU Certified

Thankyou

JH
Jay Hobdy
Jan 27, 2020
IPVMU Certified

We use desktop PCs with i5s, whatever is available from Microcenter and have been successful running 25 to 30 cameras.

My only debacle was thinking Spectrum would use the video card when live viewing 90 cameras. Apparently it is all CPU. I am still sorting that one out.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Jul 22, 2020

Sounds like there’s a lot of DW Spectrum experts in this thread so I’ll ask this here. I’m doing my first DW system for a local courthouse. Normally use Dahua NVRs and cams but trying to keep them NDAA compliant. Also want to have an option for a higher end VMS for businesses.

my question. They want a monitor to view all the cameras at the security checkpoint at the entrance of the courthouse. A video wall license on ADI is about 800 and it seems like I’d have to have a computer there attached to run it. What is the most economical way to have a monitor to view camera feeds in a situation like this. I think the video wall route is extremely expensive and overkill.

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Jul 22, 2020
IPVMU Certified

We have installed about 15, so no expert.

I would use a PC/NUC and run the client software (which is free). We do this on most of our installs. We run a server, and a viewing station. We never run the live view off the server.

The video wall is more for tying multiple stations together etc.

How many cameras? I would be careful about trying to view too many cameras at once.

PK
Patrick Kelly
Jul 22, 2020

You do not need any additional licenses to do multi-monitor, the DW Spectrum client does multi-monitor with ease natively. We offer 3 and 4 monitor output client workstations to make it a simple turnkey solution.

The video wall feature allows you to push displays from one client to another. So clients on the desktop can change the displays of clients running in video wall mode on the wall in the photo below. You could run the client on the desktop on a multi-monitor workstation with no additional licenses required.

IPVM Image

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Jul 22, 2020

Ahhh that’s very good to know about multi monitor displays. I’m not sure yet if the client and the monitor will all be at the security station or just the monitor. Say they do use that computer as the client and the monitor. What kind of specs would be needed for this station computer with 6-8 4MP cameras running at 30 FPS. Server is running on a seperate headless dedicated machine.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Jul 22, 2020

Also what are you all using for storage when your server box does not contain the drives. I.e. larger systems needing more than what 1 drive in a desktop box can hold. Is a NAS box the preferred method? Any specific ones for favorites? I use WD purple drives in all the NVRs I deploy so I would plan to continue using purple drives just don’t know the best way to implement.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jul 23, 2020

We use an i5/i7 for viewing stations with 20-30 cameras. 6 cameras wont require much HP. We are still feeling it out to see what works. I am a bit on the overkill side as a mistake costs me way more than a $200 upgrade in hardware.

We usually use internal storage and purple drives.

We just finished a small 4 camera project and had to use a NUC to fit a small enclosure and we used an external HDD holder with a WD purple drive.

Our ver first Spectrum install was 2 servers merged with a combined 90 cameras. Since the client wanted 24/7 recording, we had to add a NAS with 4 drives to each server. Hasn't hiccuped in almost a year.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Jul 23, 2020

UI#1 when you say you used an external HDD holder, what connection interface was used to attach it to the NUC? I know USB is not recommended per NX optix website.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jul 23, 2020

oops. We were not aware of that. We did use a USB port to connect the HDD to the NUC.

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John Bazyk
Jul 23, 2020
Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

USB drives can be used, the latest updates for spectrum/nx have resolved earlier issues. I would just recommend using internal storage as well for backup.

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John Bazyk
Jul 23, 2020
Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

You can easily add network storage to spectrum just like most VMS. I have a QNAP nas at my house. I run Spectrum on a raspberry pi 4 and use my NAS for all of my storage.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jul 23, 2020

Do you run Windows or Linux on the pi?

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John Bazyk
Jul 23, 2020
Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

We run raspbian

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