Subscriber Discussion

Drop Ceiling With Asbestos Above It, How Can I Run Cable?

DR
Drew Rollins
Jan 16, 2017

We are working on a building that is going under re-construction and the hallways where cameras are to be mounted are in drop ceiling. The GC will not let anyone go above the ceiling to run cable due to asbestos. Does anyone have a good idea or product ideas on how to run cable to the cameras without being aesthetically displeasing? I thought about just installing some regular cable raceway on the grid to the cameras. Any other ideas?

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 16, 2017

How many cameras? Five or Fifty? Can the cameras be wall mounted? How many floors, how many halls and how close to the nearest IDF/Telco/Network room are they?

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DR
Drew Rollins
Jan 16, 2017

2 cameras per floor for 15 floors. Unable to wall mount, won't get the view that is desired. We will be running each cable about 20 feet from the wall. 30 feet from nearest IDF

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jan 16, 2017

I hear that ugly surface mount raceway creeping in the back door. Was there any structured cabling that was dropped into each of the elderly apartments? A wifi/gsm/cmda/tdma solution could be utilized, cameras will have to penetrate into the apartments to for a power source.

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Luis Carmona
Jan 16, 2017
Geutebruck USA • IPVMU Certified

I know he won't let just anyone, but how about someone certified in safe asbestos handling? We had this come up once and we had to contact a cabling company that was certified in safe asbestos handling to sub it. But the project never went ahead because it was astronomically expensive.

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DR
Drew Rollins
Jan 16, 2017

This was brought up during pre-construction meeting and they would rather lose the devices than go through the asbestos handling. It is in a elderly complex and just too much for them to want to worry about.

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Ari Erenthal
Jan 16, 2017

You run into this kind of thing occasionally, especially if you work in cities with lots of old office buildings. Just run wiremold across the walls low down, above the molding. When you get to the spot closest to the camera, T it out, use an internal elbow to bend it out across the ceiling, and secure it to the grid with short self drilling screws. If the customer doesn't like the idea, walk. 

When securing the wiremold to the grid, PPE is essential- eyepro, paper mask, and ballcap with brim. You're going to have dust drifting down, you're going to have metal shavings and other spalling, and you may make a mistake that is going to bring asbestos falling down into your face. Use two techs, one to hold the wiremold straight and one to drill it in. 

And remember, when tapping the self drilling screws, use the lowest torque that does the job. You don't want to overtighten. 

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Luis Carmona
Jan 16, 2017
Geutebruck USA • IPVMU Certified

And make sure your general liability insurance is paid up to date...?

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Ari Erenthal
Jan 16, 2017

I mean, that's always a good idea, even if you aren't making your guys play with fire.

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Ari Erenthal
Jan 16, 2017

To be perfectly clear: I think this is a pretty bad idea, and I would advise thinking good and hard about just walking from this job, but I understand that sometimes you just don't feel like you can afford to. 

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DR
Drew Rollins
Jan 16, 2017

We won't be walking away from the job. This is with a long-standing relationship and not looking to ruin that. I was really just looking at ideas to mount to the grid for the drop ceiling not quite a legal risk-analysis. Any method we choose will be approved by the GC and all parties to C our A. Your recommendation for running the cable was going to be my first choice, just wanted to see if anyone knew of another method.

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Ari Erenthal
Jan 16, 2017

Yeah, we all have those customers whom we can't walk away from. 

Use the thinnest wiremold you can find, just wide enough for a single CAT5e, and make your connection inside the camera housing. And I'm not kidding about the PPE. Buy it and make your guys wear it. 

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U
Undisclosed #5
Jan 28, 2017

I think the GC should be providing you the wireways.  Dealing with potential asbestos exposure or taking actions that could contaminate an area are not things you want to do, longtime client or not.

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KL
Keefe Lovgren
Jan 16, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Drew,

Are the ceiling tiles you will be mounting ACM (asbestos containing material)?  Or will you be disrupting ACM in any way?  Lastly were you hired by the GC or the owner?

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Ethan Ace
Jan 16, 2017

What asbestos is above the ceiling? Are they concerned about pipe wraps? Or is there a full barrier of asbestos somewhere?

I feel like no matter what you'd be disturbing the ceiling somehow, even if it's to mount a camera to it, so you might consider wall mounting everything. Run raceway on the wall, put a tee wherever you need a camera, and 90 it up to the ceiling — or even better, keep the cameras on the wall and leave the ceiling alone. You can still mount them on the ceiling if you want, but i'd avoid putting raceway on the grid. 

Side note: I also feel like if they're doing a renovation and not doing asbestos abatement, it's pretty suspect. 

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Craig Mc Cluskey
Jan 16, 2017

Having done asbestos work, fully-suited and all, I would say Ari's comment

When securing the wiremold to the grid, PPE is essential- eyepro, paper mask, and ballcap with brim.

is very close to the mark.

I would say that a "paper mask" is not sufficient. You want something with at least a P99 rating, some disposables have that rating, but they are much more than a paper mask. I would opt for a half-face mask with P100 filters and goggles to completely cover the eyes, in addition to a ball cap with a brim and disposable clothing. The disposable Tyvek suits painters use are a good way to go.

Instead of drilling to fasten the Wiremold to the ceiling grid, how about using an adhesive? I have used cable-tie hold-downs that had an adhesive patch on them, but they didn't last. So, in order to use this option, you would have to find something with an adhesive that won't fail over time.

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Ari Erenthal
Jan 16, 2017

Now that I've had time to think, I'd like to revise my statement. 

If it's just pipewrap or whatever, then a paper mask should be fine- it's unlikely that you'll be disturbing anything, after all. 

If we're dealing with sheets of insulation, then get a half face P100 respirator and glasses that fully cover the eye.

If the tiles themselves are asbestos, then forget about it.

And the reason I recommend the self drilling screws is because I have yet to find an adhesive I'm satisfied with.  

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JE
Jim Elder
Jan 17, 2017
IPVMU Certified

If you know a guy with a wood shaper or a router, have some wood trim made with a profile that looks consistent with the environment. Route a 3/8" or so dado on the back side for the wire. Can also use corner molding. Paint to match. 

Give the Owner options: wood molding, Wiremold, Panduit wireway stuck to the ceiling grid with,  simply draping the cables on j hooks, whatever.  Don't mess with the Asbestos. that's a whole different world.

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Joseph Parker
Jan 17, 2017

I never had the opportunity to try, but I saw someone installing these on a site a while back and wondered if a cable would fit.

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Kevin Bennett
Jan 17, 2017

We have run into this before in some of our older buildings.  For us, it has been either asbestos barrier insulation and/or pipe wrap. 

In the discussions we have had with our environmental health and safety people, the asbestos remediation contractors, and others, disturbing the ceiling tiles in any way is not a good idea.  This is especially true if the asbestos is a barrier type or in the ceiling tiles themselves rather than pipe insulation that may or may not be encased in some other material.  If the ceiling tiles contain the asbestos, I would very carefully consider whether the project should proceed without some type of abatement.

Either way, proper PPE is definitely called for as has been noted above.  Cannot stress enough the importance of being sure install staff and ANYONE working in the area 1.) are trained in the use of proper PPE appropriate for the inhalation hazard, 2.) USE the PPE as per manufacturer's recommendations, 3.) understand that any dust on their clothing is potentially contaminated - Tyvek coveralls are strongly encouraged if not already indicated by the type/level of asbestos threat.

As for the exposed cabling, wiremold raceway is the way to go, preferably painted to match the surface to which it is installed.  Mounting, in my opinion, would be best closer to (just below) the ceiling than just above the floor or base moulding.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jan 18, 2017

Reminded me of these from old camera mounts. No drilling. Of course, in some jurisdictions you can't mount to a grid. 

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U
Undisclosed #3
Jan 18, 2017

"Side note: I also feel like if they're doing a renovation and not doing asbestos abatement, it's pretty suspect. "

Nobody else chiming in regarding Ethan's comment?

I think it's the most sensible comment in this whole string.

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MI
Matt Ion
Jan 18, 2017

This was exactly my thought. Around here, I don't think you'd ever get away with even minimal renos without doing full abatement first - safety authority would shut you down in an instant.

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DR
Drew Rollins
Jan 18, 2017

This is why no one is allowed above ceiling, then it would require abatement. It is a HUD sponsored renovation, all environmental inspections are performed prior to funding being awarded. We can "safely" put that issue to rest, pun intended.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Jan 18, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

Are they opposed to EMT?

DR
Drew Rollins
Jan 18, 2017

I'd think it would be too much of an eye sore.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Jan 18, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

Well it's better than dealing with the asbestos issue. Tell them to paint it to match if they don't like bare metal. 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Jan 23, 2017

Is there any existing infrastructure you can piggy back on?  We ran into this when converting analog to IP and used media converters to avoid.

Also I've used Network power adapters for IP networks as well. EoP (Ethernet over Power)  The network gets put over power lines and has worked in hard to reach places as well.

DR
Drew Rollins
Jan 23, 2017

No, unfortunately. This site has never had cameras and no nearby power sources to use Ethernet over Power.

U
Undisclosed #5
Jan 28, 2017

If you touch the ceiling (to mount anything to it) and the place ends up contaminated, somebody is going to get **ked, and that somebody could very well be you.  Have the GC provide the wireways.  It's not in your scope (hopefully) and not your area of expertise (even if you're perfectly capable of installing wiremold/etc).

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RS
Robert Shih
Jan 29, 2017
Independent

You know...I tried REEEAAAALLY hard not to interject here. I even stopped myself short when I typed my original ranty wall of text, but as I keep reading this, I find myself unable to restrain my opinion here.

This has bad news written all over it and the overwhelming majority's opinion on this forum would be for you to walk away from this. Aside from the legal repercussions if anything happens, I would like to emphasize that NOTHING, no matter how important a "relationship" you have with this customer or how much they pay you, should be worth a potential encounter with a terminal illness for yourself or one of your crew.

I IMPLORE you and anyone else who might find themselves in this position in the future, to just walk away. By now, I have no idea what might have occurred since you got into this mess, but I send my strongest wishes out to the cosmos that you and your men are safe.

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U
Undisclosed #6
Jan 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

NOTHING...should be worth a potential encounter with a terminal illness for yourself or one of your crew.

Robert, do you know anything about the risks of asbestos?

A single encounter does not result in a terminal illness.

Long term exposure over years is the cause of illness.

In addition, everyone breathes some asbestos every day.  Its still in flooring and roofing products, and occurs naturally as well.

Not that I would encourage anyone to expose themselves needlessly to it, but the risk of doing a single job, where you are working below the drop ceiling with the proper precautions would, IMHO, be neglible, however note: IANAD.

I would think in this case the far greater risk would be to the long-term occupants of the space below the drop ceiling

RS
Robert Shih
Jan 29, 2017
Independent

Still, it's a lung contaminant and the human body is unpredictable in breaking down. I wouldn't send anyone in there.

U
Undisclosed #6
Jan 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I wouldn't send anyone in there.

Read the OP, he is not going "in" there, the asbestos is above the ceiling.  

He is asking how to do the job since it is prohibited to go "in there".

Btw, asbestos is still found in many buildings and still legal in many products, such as:

Cement corrugated sheet
Cement flat sheet
Clothing
Pipeline wrap
Roofing felt
Vinyl floor tile
Cement shingle
Millboard
Cement pipe
Automatic transmission components
Clutch facings
Friction materials
Disk brake pads
Drum brake linings
Brake blocks
Gaskets
Non-roofing coatings
Roof coatings

In this case, the OP knows that there is asbestos above the ceiling, and can take precautions therefore.

As opposed to the many buildings you might not even know til you come upon it.

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U
Undisclosed #5
Jan 29, 2017

I'm sure I'm not the only person here who has seen a family member face terminal illness caused by environmental exposure.  It certainly sharpens one's awareness of the consequences of toxic hazards.

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U
Undisclosed #6
Jan 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Agreed.

MI
Matt Ion
Jan 29, 2017

As I noted earlier, in these parts, presence of asbestos in a reno site would result in a heath code shutdown of the site until proper abatement could be done. Maybe an over-reaction, but that alone should be enough to give anyone pause.

U
Undisclosed #6
Jan 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I'm not against pausing, I don't think that's an over-reaction at all. 

I do think calling a single job, done with proper protection, and not in the ceiling 

...a potential encounter with a terminal illness for yourself or one of your crew.

is.

UE
Undisclosed End User #7
Jan 29, 2017

If there is asbestos in the building ask for and review the ACM survey to determine where the material is and more importantly what else is present like lead based paints on the walls. Also this facility maybe on the historical register thus those restrictions may also be of concern and further limit your options.

you could hire an asbestos certified environmental engineer to do your own survey or help you interpret the existing ACM survey. A limited survey would generally run about 2k and it would be well worth the cost.

As others have said stay safe.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #8
Jan 29, 2017

Maybe IPVM could do an article informing us of what to look for in common situations like this where a customer may not know or not inform us of common contaminates like asbestos and lead. We climb around drop ceilings, attics, and other nasty places all the time, who knows what we are actually getting on us and in us. 

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JH
John Honovich
Jan 30, 2017
IPVM

Maybe IPVM could do an article informing us of what to look for in common situations like this

I put this on the list of future posts. We might even do an integrator survey to gather perspectives.

Besides lead and asbestos, any other contaminates or dangers you want us to cover?

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Jon Dillabaugh
Jan 30, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

Food for thought, I was recently tickled (electrocuted) by touching two conduits on the outside of a building while attempting to mount a camera between them. One of the conduits was hot with 110VAC. My body ended up being the bridge to ground on the second conduit. 

So, faulty wiring and bad grounds. That would be my hazard. 

JH
Jay Hobdy
Jan 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I would have my attorney involved and charge for his fees regardless of where the contract went.

UE
Undisclosed End User #7
Jan 30, 2017

I agree an article would be great. I have been introduced to the subject by having a project get flagged now I am very careful about both the environmental and historical issues. Out of the six or so government buildings which are a mix of both new and old construction I have asked for and revived the asbestos containing materials (ACM) survey report the property owner maintains. I was amazed at the type and location of materials. As noted above in another comment these materials are still being put into buildings as of very recently. 

I advised in my previous comment to pull the report because even though the warning not to work above the ceiling was made the breath of where the material resides was undisclosed. Is the ACM in the the ceiling tiles, blown in on the under decking, on the pipes, in the spackling, in the drywall or somewhere else. Further if Asbestos is present likely other hazards also exist like lead.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Jan 30, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

Don't worry about environmental issues anymore. Trump is going to rubber stamp and approve projects asap. 

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