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Do You Think The US Government Ban Will Spark Any Innovation On The Camera Side Of Things?

Do you think this will spark any innovation on the camera side of things?  With +100 plus companies OEMing them with basically the same cameras and different firmware which are going to have to look at other options I would think we might see some new camera innovation out of this.  yes/no?

 

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: US Congress Passes Bill Banning Dahua And Hikvision

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Good question. I made it its own topic.

Yes, I agree there will be innovation and investment on the camera side of things. I don't think it will be primarily from the OEMs since those companies, by definition of being OEMs, have identified themselves as having low interest in development.

However, I think the 'real' manufacturers will be helped plus startups will be motivated to help fill that hole. Plus, the (self-)destructive race to the bottom that Dahua and Hikvision drove will be further disrupted encouraging more investment from tech companies in this space.

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I hope that it will.  However, there are still a lot of companies that are perfectly content with slapping labels on others products and have likely done so for decades.  For example, Bosch circa 2004 had three different DVRs - DESA, Dibos, and Divar.  I think that only the Divar was their product.  The DESA was absolutely not. The Dibos was questionable.  They had early IP cameras - the Netcam series that were clearly not theirs.  Finally, there were a ton of ancillary pieces of equipment that were not only OEM'd but still showed the original brand (e.g. NVT).

I hope Axis, Avigilon, and any other true manufacturers remaining benefit and invest wisely.  It would be great if Panasonic got back in the game and tried to make their VMS a true enterprise VMS rather than trying to make it a CMS for legacy product like WV-ASM970 and NVRs.  It would also be wonderful if they would drop the Dahua product from their main product line.

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The DIVAR was an OEM, DESA was a Korean OEM and DIBOS was a move from a BOSCH Germany product, not OEM. 

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It was so much worse than I thought...

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Just a quick response on the Bosch DiBos:  It absolutely was an internal Bosch product when it was brought to the US.  That may have changed later in the products life, but in the 2002-ish timeframe it 100% Bosch software - in fact, the PC Chassis was made by Bosch as well.

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Technically a SIEMENS motherboard running Windows NT as I recall ;)

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I don’t think it will. Not from those companies at least. I think they OEM from China because it’s the easy way out of having to do all that R&D yourself. I wouldn’t be surprised if we saw manufacturers from other countries who are able to product lower cost goods start innovating to fill the void. Hikvision and Dahua are no small players. There’s huge opportunity in the market right now for someone to come out with simple, affordable and professional quality solutions.

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As the worm turns

 

Already see engineers that were cut loose from the big guns going to smaller facilites. 

Plenty of new designs and innovative products hitting my in box. 

Just like in the US, corporate buyout and downsizing send designers to other firms or they start their own. 

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I dont think so, but even if it did, everything will still be manufactured in China hate to say.

It goes without saying but if you really wanted to scale it, to uniquely create something in this industry like a camera takes alot of money. Alot of initial and ongoing develop costs. Experienced human labor would be expensive. The startup costs would be tremendous. I think you would be in the hole for a while before you would recoup all of these costs. 

This is usually too much of a financial burden for someone to take on their own. Even the big OEM's would be taking a big financial risk with their own money or financing (if they had it). A project like this would usually require getting investors which is a big pill to swallow for alot of people.

Honestly, I would like to see an American type Dahua-esque or Hikvision-esque company start up. One that isnt trying to change the world with new bleeding edge technology but instead just making affordable SMB equipment that works good. The differentiator would be that they are American. If you could make the equipment in America, that would be even better but that would require alot of highly automated machines which I imagine would costs tons of money.

Doing something like this is one of my life goals. Honestly, just scared about the huge risk and investor money that is involved. I hate losing my own money but I think I would be more freaked out about losing other peoples money. I guess you just gotta get in there and take the leap though!

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hate to say this as well but you know what would encourage me to do this more than the stupid tarriffs and bans that are taking place?

A subsidy from the USA government.

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A subsidy from the USA government.

You mean a loan from the government or free money?

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Free Money but an Interest Free loan with unlimited due date will work as well! If you want to compete with the Chinese, play them at their own game.

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With all your love for Hikvision I am surprised you're not moving to China.  

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They wanted me to be a mole here in the USA to distribute their cyber warhead machines.

Have you accepted a position at Haxis or Gene-vul yet?

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It all makes sense now. The only camera that failed IPVM's Vulnerability Scanner on our network was a Nelly camera. 

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Good to see a fellow Hikvision fan boy. And to be fair, anything Hikvision will fail any IPVM branded test by simply setting in their product box, doesnt even need to be powered on. Dont lay eyes on it, or it will hack your brain as well.

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No, the other Hikvision cameras didn't just the Nelly one :)

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I must have forgot to upgrade the hackware before i sent it out. BTW, you just solidified my Hikvision fan boy comment even more by admitting you have hoards and hoards of Hikvision cameras on your system. 

At any rate, before John deletes our comments. To get back on topic. Will you be innovating anything?

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For advanced technology, we call it DARPA.  They fund all sorts of off the wall technical challenges.  Look at how Object Video started.

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everything will still be manufactured in China hate to say.

Huh?

3 of the biggest players have manufacturing outside of China.

Beyond that, for what it's worth, Hikvision said on their Chinese investor call that if Trump raised tariffs on video surveillance to 25% they would seriously consider manufacturing in the US.

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Cmon. The OP alluded to the OEM's innovating because of the Hikvision ban. Do you think they (these OEM's) are all of a sudden going to start ordering/creating Avigilon/Axis style pricing products? Avigilon has not near an impact on the SMB or Consumer grade market that Hikvision does. Hikvision OEM's arent interested in this. 

Who cares about manufacturing in Tailand or Vietnam. Thats a lateral move. As far as Hanwha manufacturing in Vietnam, woohoo an Asian company manufacturing in another Asian country, the USA totally wins, NOT!!!

If Hikvision does manufacturer in the USA, it would only be a political move only. I imagine the costs of the products would be more than it would cost to get them in china with the 25% tarriff imposed. If thats the case, I imagine OEM's would still be ordering from China.

 

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Do you think they (these OEM's) are all of a sudden going to start ordering/creating Avigilon/Axis style pricing products?

I already acknowledged that OEMs would not in my first comment at the top of this thread but I emphasized that others ('real' manufacturers' and startups could and would).

 

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Perhaps the ban on certain Chinese products will just move the sourcing to other countries, as noted by John Bazyk. It doesn't appear likely that cameras can be made inexpensively in the US.

Perhaps CCTV suppliers will just have to increase their diligence regarding OEM cyber vulnerabilities so that they don't have to keep changing suppliers?

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Is there really any company that is not fed by Cinese's (or any other) government money that has the power to invest on such a large scale?I am talking about developing and bettering  one million different technologies like face recognition,deep Learning, Thermal cameras,NVR cyber security , Cloud, etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.

Lets face it smaller players play small games...they can win some match but what about ruling the Championship?

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the power to invest on such a large scale?...different technologies like face recognition,deep Learning

I'd argue the opposite and not just about the Chinese. Historically, new technology is pioneered by small independent startups. Often they are bought by huge companies later but generally, the skill and focus come from startups.

Lets face it smaller players play small games...

The easy access to VC funding makes that not true. Large companies focus more on their core existing businesses whereas small companies (led by niche domain experts) with tens or hundreds of millions in VC funding win 'championships' in new markets.

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Well maybe but...if i focus on my projects i really don't see many single players who can offer me the whole packet...in the last one we needed Thermal cameras with deep Learning functions,people counting camers with zero tollerance for faults,night view speed domes , mobile cameras dreassable by private security guards that can send recordings straight to nvrs in the control room.Plus it had to be connected and centralized to access control (and that was the real issue….)...so i really cannot buy Thermal camera from x,people counting from y and so on 

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NO.  Simply put the US Government (at least the DHS/GSA leased facilities) do not currently use HIKVISION.  The manufacturers won't see a need.  

I would also like to say that the Ban is in my opinion a good thing.  Since it is mainly in place due to unfair pricing practices.  What if the US government started backing a specific company and gave them money so they could provide good cheap products to outsell your companies.  Government backed products make the market unfair even if the products are good. 

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