Subscriber Discussion

Do Not Operate Under A Veil Of Secrecy, Nor Would It Ever Be Acceptable To Act In Any Forum Without Disclosing Who You Are

JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 16, 2018

In the organizations that I am a member of and/or serve on their technical committees such ASIS International, ESA, CSAA, NFPA, UL, ASCET and SIA, we do not operate under a veil of secrecy, nor would it ever be acceptable to act in any forum without disclosing who you are.

Any suggestion that any and/or all of these organizations are wrong in what they do regarding same is simply erroneous.

Undeniably, each of these organizations are authoritative and IPVM should consider following their recognized practices. If not, then the weight of the anonymous will always be suspect and considerably less than important then someone who posts their name and their background.

Respectfully submitted,

Jeffrey D. Zwirn, President, Zwirn Corporation.

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: The Interceptor Aims To Fix Vulnerability In Millions Of Alarm Systems

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Jan 16, 2018

I though we killed that horse already.  Twice.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jan 16, 2018

We did.  The original person calling out undisclosed posters is now posting undisclosed.

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JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 16, 2018

OK. I love animals...lol

JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 16, 2018

Point made 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jan 16, 2018

Corporate policies stifle free speech, irregardless of a given persons willingness to accept responsibility for their comments. The "veil of secrecy" allows many to circumvent this.  Unless every post contains three pages of legal disclaimers in the footer I don't see undisclosed going away.  Since IPVM is behind a paywall it is unlikely there are (many) posts made by buffoons that would agitate any other undisclosed posting system.

Jeff - What does your company policy state regarding public comments?

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UE
Undisclosed End User #8
Jan 24, 2018

I wouldn't feel good posting even with all those legal disclaimers. And for what it's worth, I've seen far too many people lose their jobs over social media posts for opinions that fall outside the range of whatever the currently accepted societal norms are or for tweets that are unprofessional. I have a job / career where I love coming in to work every day—the best job I've ever had in fact—and while I don't think I would lose my position for something like that, I also see no need to ever entertain the possibility.

 

IPVM's a great resource though, and while I don't contribute often, I like to jump in when / where I can if I have something meaningful to contribute.

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JH
John Honovich
Jan 16, 2018
IPVM

Jeff, I made this its own item, both because it's a good topic to discuss on its own and that thread is now at 100+ comments.

(1) IPVM is based on the belief that ideas, evidence and sound argumentation count, not the identities or backgrounds of people. Based on how you engage on IPVM comments citing your own credentials over and over and over again, you clearly believe otherwise.

(2) Forums that require people to disclose their identities incent people to conform to company 'agendas' and encourage self-censorship of critical opinions.

As for IPVM, our results stand for itself. In video surveillance, no organization has delivered as much research, testing, analysis, insights, debates, impact on industry trends, etc. as IPVM. To me, core to that is our focus on ideas, from anywhere and not being focused credentials or company names.

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JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 16, 2018

John you know where I stand on credentials and there are an abundance of associations who recognize what I have earned and proven. This includes ASIS, UL, CSAA, NFPA, SIA, ASCET, AFAA, ESA and others.

While we agree to disagree, I like what IPVM has done for the most part and that is thanks to what you have created. Congratulations!

 

Avatar
Ross Vander Klok
Jan 22, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Jeff, I am wondering if you include the "CPP, CFPS, FACFEI, CHS-IV, SET, CCI, MBAT Zwirn Corporation" on your business cards?  I only ask that because it seems like a long list and many of the abbreviations are unknown to me even with my 20+ years in the Security Industry.  I am in no way disparaging your accomplishments as they are indeed impressive.  I am just legitimately curious as to how they are received on your business card.   OR do you have separate cards catering to whatever field you are dealing with at the time?  

I also appreciate and understand your viewpoint about posts and I must admit that I do give more credence to those who post with a name, but I do not discount those that post as undisclosed.

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JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 22, 2018

Ross: 

Thank you for your comments. On the front side of the business card I list my name and my credentials.

The explanation of what my credentials indicate are listed on the reverse side of the card.

I must discount what an undisclosed person posts and the fact that they get paid to post is an entirely new concept for me. I do not know of any organization who pays anyone to post their comments. 

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JH
John Honovich
Jan 22, 2018
IPVM

the fact that they get paid to post is an entirely new concept for me. I do not know of any organization who pays anyone to post their comments.

That's what called an innovation, Jeff. If everybody always did it the same way, things would never improve.

To explain the rationale and benefit of it: Overall, people commenting on IPVM adds value to what we offer. That's indisputable as a general theme. And people did so for years before we offered any rewards. So to foster that and to recognize those that bring value we invented a mechanism where members can recognize and reward their fellow members.

We also pay people to take surveys (generally $1 per question answered). Now compare that to SSI, who you know well since you write for them. SSI statistics are based on people answering surveys with no reward beyond the comical chance at a gift card. While SSI captures all the value of that, it disincentives people both from answering and from spending time to answer accurately.

Our survey results, because of that, have far higher quality. You can scan our 250+ statistics reports if you are not familiar. 

In fairness to SSI, their business model undermines quality research since it is dependent on product sellers for advertising payments whereas our business model rewards us with subscription payments from various people around the world based only on the quality of our offering.

Your thoughts Jeff?

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JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 23, 2018

Dear John: 

SSI does not undermine quality research and I do not say this because      I am one of their long term technical writers. I say this because the persons at SSI run a very professional organization, and that counts.

Concurrently, innovation is awesome, albeit, I would hope that a better balance can be achieved based on my concerns.

Research by the organizations who I work with and/or am a member of follow a consensus based process, the scientific method and people are not paid, and their names and company names are always fully disclosed. By way of example, the NFPA, National Fire Protection Association. 

In closing, I would ask you to consider reaching out to Scott Goldfine,    the editor of Security Sales and Integration Magazine, and asking for his comment and feedback as well, and then offer him a one month free subscription. Maybe the way you innovate will catch on.

Best 

Jeffrey 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: Security Sales And Integration Un A Very Professional Organization, And That Counts

U
Undisclosed #4
Jan 22, 2018
IPVMU Certified

...and the fact that they get paid to post is an entirely new concept for me.

To be sure, posting alone does not get anyone paid.  Votes are the coin of the realm.  

IMO, Informative come intermittently and Agree to a degree, but Funny is where the money is.

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 24, 2018

Funny is where the money is.

Good personality always pays no matter what you are doing.

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Avatar
Ari Erenthal
Jan 24, 2018
Chesapeake & Midlantic

Man, take it from me. 

Funny is a lot harder than it looks. 

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 24, 2018

Man, take it from me.

Funny is a lot harder than it looks.

Anybody that can grow a beard that full is all business. You could be top money winner if there was an "intimidating" vote. I say this as a compliment sir.

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U
Undisclosed #4
Jan 24, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Man, take it from me.

Funny is a lot harder than it looks.

Oh, you lie!

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Brian Rhodes
Jan 24, 2018
IPVMU Certified

People forget the clown is always crying on the inside.  :(

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Ari Erenthal
Jan 24, 2018
Chesapeake & Midlantic

Promotes beard growth, though.

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Ross Vander Klok
Jan 23, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Cool, thanks Jeff!  Having the explanations listed on the back is a great idea.

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JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 25, 2018

I am going to need a bigger card. Remember JAWS the movie..We are going to need a bigger boat...lol

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jan 23, 2018

On the front side of the business card I list my name and my credentials.

The explanation of what my credentials indicate are listed on the reverse side of the card.

Is it a 3" x5" card?

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U
Undisclosed #4
Jan 24, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Is it a 3" x5" card?

Fits easily ;)

 

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U
Undisclosed #4
Jan 23, 2018
IPVMU Certified

John you know where I stand on credentials and there are an abundance of associations who recognize what I have earned and proven. This includes ASIS, UL, CSAA, NFPA, SIA, ASCET, AFAA, ESA and others.

What no IPVMU/AC

JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 24, 2018

Bryan 

No one can have it all

JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 24, 2018

I am glad to add it to my things to do list 

U
Undisclosed #4
Jan 24, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Bryan

Ah, you just pierced my veil of secrecy...

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jan 24, 2018

Ah, you just pierced my veil of secrecy...

You should have been warned by how much he uses the words "forensic" and "forensically" in his initial device post.

JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 16, 2018

 Thank you IPVM for making this a separate discussion.

Avatar
Sean Nelson
Jan 22, 2018
Nelly's Security

Do undisclosed comments still count towards the top commenters list? If so, I think I know who some of the undisclosed people are.


Respectfully,
Sean Nelson, ISS (International Security Stud)

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JH
John Honovich
Jan 22, 2018
IPVM

No, votes on undisclosed comments do not count for the top commenters list (though they do count for member credits). Indeed, if they did, you would not be #1 :)

We are adding an option to allow users to have votes on their undisclosed comments count. The reason we do default to not include such votes is ensure privacy, i.e., they may not want their names to ever be displayed / shown publicly, even on a top list.

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Avatar
Ross Vander Klok
Jan 22, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I was about to co-opt your ISS designation until I realized it was too close to ISIS for me to be comfortable with it!  ;-)  

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JH
John Honovich
Jan 22, 2018
IPVM

too close to ISIS for me to be comfortable with it! ;-)

Sean's a guy who shouts from rooftops about being on the Hikvision train, so I doubt he's worried about negative associations...

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Avatar
Sean Nelson
Jan 22, 2018
Nelly's Security

Well someone has to inform your readers the difference between what is critical coverage of a manufacturer versus your obvious scandal based reporting meant to garner more subscriptions. 

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: IPVM Coverage Of Hikvision "Obvious Scandal Based Reporting Meant To Garner More Subscriptions."

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U
Undisclosed #3
Jan 22, 2018

Before the internet was the question of would you rather have a be laid to rest in a coffin or be turned to ash? Who puts a headstone on one's ashes, urn or other time date stamp and identity. When born no one asked you to be here until you arrived and were identified as you. Why identify yourself with a name, when we do not really know who you are? 

The internet is too young for any decisions as you suggest above. No one asked me to be here but I am and do not care what technical committee you have become a poster for. Now that I know your name I am not impressed in anyway because no one asked you to be here either.

Trolls are a given, Hey Look at Me Mom! I thwarted the veil of secrecy and found the technicians were splicing the cables all along!

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U
Undisclosed #4
Jan 22, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Good example of a post that is better done as Undisclosed.

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JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 23, 2018

I think your comments are asinine and not professional. 

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Avatar
Ari Erenthal
Jan 23, 2018
Chesapeake & Midlantic

I prefer to judge an argument on its merits, not on the reputation of the arguer. To that end, I appreciate IPVM's encouraging people to post the best arguments they can, without having to worry about how their bosses or customers would feel about it. 

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U
Undisclosed #5
Jan 23, 2018

ok, jeffrey.

Let me tell you why I REALLY dislike smart people like you who deflect with their CV shield when presented with logical arguments opposed to their own - and clearly biased - perspective.

You care more about inflating yourself and your many-times-referenced certifications along with each and every post you made as if this should be the end-all of discussion when it comes to judging you on the logic of your lengthy comments.

I agree with the comments of others in this string (like Ari and John H himself regarding the merits of logical arguments vs the [alleged] merits of the individual certifications held by the person making the argument).  Especially when they are selling their own invention related to the debate.

At least this has been your MO in the OP you posted - until some Undisclosed poster made fun of that habit and you capitulated and stopped (though still felt compelled to sign your name to every post, purposefully unlike the obvious site norm).

You have an obvious agenda.

You want to sell your invention.

To claim offense that others - who have debated you as Undisclosed - have called you out on this really, really obvious bias of yours is laughable.

Respectfully,

Undisclosed #5 

 

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UE
Undisclosed End User #6
Jan 23, 2018

Yeah, what he said! I appreciate expertise but not ego.

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UE
Undisclosed End User #7
Jan 24, 2018

Yeah, UD5 fully agree. Just give me the truth I don’t need your name to judge your creditably.

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JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 24, 2018

Its not just about a name, it is about your education, skill, knowledge, training, experience and credentials.

U
Undisclosed #5
Jan 24, 2018

"Its not just about a name, it is about your education, skill, knowledge, training, experience and credentials."

Jeff,

You may not believe it, but I completely agree with that statement.

Except, in the discussion forum setting that we find ourselves in here, education, skill, knowledge, training, experience and credentials do not magically entitle those so credentialed (you) a free pass when it comes to discussing your product and the claims you have made. 

Credentials are a qualifier for sure - but they aint a free pass to soapbox, using same to diminish those that don't immediately accept your pitch.

i.e. IPVM aint the industry-standard pay for play joint.

If you come here and make declarative statements about your own invention that you are currently licensing/selling, you should expect the learned folks (not me, but many others) who congregate here to want to understand your claims and ask a bunch of questions that their own experience and knowledge have taught them is prudent when presented with anything 'new'.

All of us are security professionals with primarily the same goals... safety and security for our customers.  Your pitch doesn't seem to recognize this.

 

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JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 24, 2018

The information which I posit is based on what I have witnessed firsthand since 1980. It is not a pitch, it is about Making Alarm Systems Safer. In any event, this thread is titled:

Do Not Operate Under A Veil Of Secrecy, Nor Would It Ever Be Acceptable To Act In Any Forum Without Disclosing Who You Are

If you have any questions about my invention, please feel free to ask me about same on the proper thread.

Nothing in what I said entitles me to anything, but the technical reality of what I identified, is undeniably a serious defect which exists on the data-bus of many control panels. To that end, what I addressed and invented is something that before now was never addressed, and security professionals should embrace any product that makes alarm systems safer. 

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U
Undisclosed #5
Jan 24, 2018

"but the technical reality of what I identified, is undeniably a serious defect which exists on the data-bus of many control panels."

why don't alarm control panel manufacturers seem to care about this if what you claim is true?

I'm asking a serious question here.... are alarm control panel manufacturers somehow complicit in their feigned ignorance?  i.e. you have been around, sounding the alarm (BOOM), for going on two years, yes?  why are they ignoring your invention?  please answer this question specifically.

why haven't alarm control panel manufacturers just bought you out/licensed the IP of your invention - even though we can assume that they all have heard of your invention by now?

THAT (imo) is the key question.  One that you have avoided and/or simply failed to answer as of yet.

JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 24, 2018

Authorized dealers and others are making the Interceptor a part of their standard offering and other interested parties are in discussions with Zwirn Corporation as well. In any event, the Interceptor is being sold through word of mouth and to alarm and security professionals who recognize the critical issues at hand. 

Please review the germane thread as I have addressed this or a similar question from others. 

You can simply deny the serious defect which I identified, or recognize it. There is no conflict whatsoever in helping to better electronically protect your subscribers. 

To the extent that anyone believes that the data-bus wiring and the control panels and other products referenced and/or listed will not be dangerously affected by an accidental or intentional short, please explain with specificity each of the technical reasons that the system will still normally operate and then communicate to the central station as intended.

If any reader has a fix to this serious problem, please provide details regarding same, so we all can see what is available, for at the very least    both Honeywell and Concord Control Panels.

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U
Undisclosed #5
Jan 24, 2018

ok, it is quite clear to me at this point.

you can not answer my posed question, and instead are left with going all-in with your 'I am smarter than everyone else and my credentials prove it' marketing campaign.

So be it.

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JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 24, 2018

It is quite clear that some of the undisclosed persons cannot in any way support what they posit. So be it.

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JH
John Honovich
Jan 24, 2018
IPVM

It is quite clear that some of the undisclosed persons cannot in any way support what they posit

Neither can you, Jeff. Look at the SSI discussion. You refuse to provide any evidence and you continue to make emotive statements and appeals to authority.

I do think people not being able to support what they posit is an issue but it's an issue regardless of being disclosed or undisclosed.

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JZ
Jeff Zwirn
Jan 24, 2018

I do not consider this forum a free pass or a soap box but security professionals and their customers need to know when a serious defect exists on many of the control panels which have been sold to the alarm industry and this has been ongoing for many, many years.

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U
Undisclosed #9
Jan 24, 2018

Aaaaand we're back to a discussion of someone's pet project instead of the topic of this thread.  There should be a social skills certification.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jan 24, 2018

Another option would be to hire someone to be the public face of the product.  Zwirn is certainly not representing his product well.

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jan 24, 2018

The day the news media and the various levels of the justice system foreswear the use of anonymous sources, confidential informants,  and "background" or "off-the-record" information, on that day I will do the same.

Not before.

Some things can and must be said openly. Others cannot be said except under the protection of anonymity, because there are far too many people who will clandestinely use your open statements against you, acting badly in darkness while loudly proclaiming their innocence when the light shines upon them.

One must always consider the source when evaluating information, but one cannot simply dismiss information simply because the source may be dubious. It's part of the judgment process.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Jan 24, 2018

And from the other side of the coin, isn't argumentum ad verecundiam still considered to be a logical fallacy?

Sure was way back when I went to school.

 

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JH
John Honovich
Jan 24, 2018
IPVM

isn't argumentum ad verecundiam still considered to be a logical fallacy?

For others: argumentum ad verecundiam means argument from authority or appeal to authority and is generally considered a logical fallacy.

Though it would only be fitting if Jeff now adds 'Ivy League Educated Philosopher' to trump you on that :)

Btw, Jeff, where did you go to college? What were your SAT scores? I am kidding, sort of...

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 24, 2018

 argumentum ad verecundiam

Answer. What is Vandium?

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CR
Chad Rohde
Jan 24, 2018

I had this bout scored at:

Zwirn-2 (2 lengthy discussions getting product name out there)

IPVM-1 (Group sucker punches from the undisclosed team)

But give the win to IPVM with the TKO comment by Honovich. No defense for this.

That's what called an innovation, Jeff. If everybody always did it the same way, things would never improve. 

Plus I agree with others that all the certification acronyms on display is way overboard. At least put "40 years of specialized expertise" in front of all the certifications. :)

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