Creepy Or Necessary? - Target / Walmart Self Check Out Cameras

JH
John Honovich
Nov 22, 2017
IPVM

Many Target and Wal-Mart locations are adding security cameras and monitors right on top of the check-out.

As one person observed:

I have seen one up close and had the same reaction. The monitor with a live feed of your face is staring right back at you. I have never seen anything like that before.

As another person declared:

On the other hand, as a thief on Reddit declared:

And a 2016 study claims 20 - 33% of people were regularly stealing from self-checkouts.

So what do you think? Creepy? Necessary? Any alternative processes or technologies that could be used?

 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 22, 2017

This is something that Home Depot has implemented for a while already. They actually have them all around the store mounted face height on the racks. (mostly in high ticket item areas such as the tool department) 

I've seen a few different iterations of them, going from analog to HD. I'm assuming that they are using them as a deterrent to dissuade theft.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Nov 22, 2017

Here are a few examples:

Home depot cameras 

More Home depot cameras

HomeDepotPinOakHoustonselfcheckout

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Nov 22, 2017

Necessary, we do business with a lot of retail and grocery chains. Theft is not uncommon, employee theft is also a major issue. Some of these businesses lose millions every year due to shrinkage. Is it a little creepy? Maybe, but only if you're trying to steal something. 

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JH
John Honovich
Nov 22, 2017
IPVM

Is it a little creepy? Maybe, but only if you're trying to steal something.

Disagree. Not just personally but I think how retailers operate in general show that they recognize overbearing surveillance is generally disliked by customers.

Lots of retailers take pains to put cameras out of the way (high, obscured, etc.) so that customers feel more comfortable.

Another example - take the no hats rule in banks. This is frequently unenforced because asking someone to take their hat off could be viewed by people as intrusive (bad hair day, balding, like their hat, etc.) and also implying that the bank employee thinks the customer is a thief, etc.

Avatar
Brian Karas
Nov 22, 2017
IPVM

Our local Home Depot has the tool-aisle PVM's also. But these add an extra layer of creepy, where a PIP window pops up showing a guy in a monitoring center. The popup changes to different clips, in many of them the guy picks up a phone to call someone and appears to be having a concerned conversation with the person on the other end. I think it is meant to imply the monitoring center guy is calling the store manager as he is watching you.

This is the manufacturer sticker on the back of the product, showing it is a Clinton Electronics unit:

The spec sheet for a similar model, the CE-M10S, implies the PIP window video comes from a local SD card:

There is only a single cable going into the back of these units, a 1/2" armored cable. It's possible it has power and Ethernet, or power and video, but I would wager the video from these is not actually recorded anywhere at all.

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U
Undisclosed #4
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

My local Home Depot may be even worse:

Motion triggered “recording” with audible alarm.

 

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Brian Karas
Nov 22, 2017
IPVM

The one in my pic makes the same motion-activated alarm sound.

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Kyle Folger
Nov 23, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I can't stand the motion activated alarm. It drives me nuts because all the areas in a Home Depot that I get supplies from always have them. If it was maybe a pleasant tone, it wouldn't be so bad. If it was maybe the chime on some Samsung TVs that triggers when you turn it on. I always turn that off, but at least it wouldn't be so obnoxious. 

And I thought that PIP security guard was unique to my store. To find that he's not calling on me when are stare into the camera is just disappointing.

Apparently, they aren't working too well though. The Home Depot's near me have discovered that they simply need Axis cameras at 5'-6' on the right of the exit doors as you walk out. They have probably just discovered high definition. Unfortunately, they didn't sub out the conduit from the 4 square box to the ceiling and did it themselves. If there's horizontal conduit in the way, simply lay it over and strap it down. What's an offset bend?

The one Kroger near me has gone off the deep end with Bosch cameras at the entrances. I believe the last time I was there, I counted at least 6 or 7 near the double door. They need to catch them at all angles.

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Brian Karas
Nov 23, 2017
IPVM

I can't stand the motion activated alarm. It drives me nuts because all the areas in a Home Depot that I get supplies from always have them.

Agreed, those stupid alarming PVM's just incentivize me to order more stuff from Amazon.

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Kyle Folger
Nov 23, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Ha! I do love Amazon, but I still need Home Depot for small parts. However, I prefer Menard's. I noticed the Menard's near me is updating their Bosch analog system to Sony IP cameras. It appears they are running new cable to all these. They aren't finished yet but I hope they remove the old cameras when they are finished. It looks funny with the old and new right next to each other.

They don't have PVM monitors...yet. Hopefully, they don't jump on that train. I don't really go to Menards for tools, except for Toughbuilt, but I like their fastener selection and they still carry black pipe and galvanized pipe in larger sizes. This is something Home Depot has cut back on.

Maybe in the future Amazon will develop a product that will know what I need for a job before I even know. I would just look at an approved project, and Amazon would just place the order.

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Ari Erenthal
Nov 23, 2017
Chesapeake & Midlantic

Unfortunately, they didn't sub out the conduit from the 4 square box to the ceiling and did it themselves. If there's horizontal conduit in the way, simply lay it over and strap it down. What's an offset bend?

If only there was someplace nearby where they could buy electrical supplies and the tools to install them. 

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U
Undisclosed #7
Oct 26, 2019

Reminds me of....'Hurry up and Buy!"

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 23, 2017

I see these all over Homedepot.   I assume these record to an SD card in the monitor.  Part of me wants to do something just so I have to watch them sit for hours trying to get the video off and review video on the SD card.  

Avatar
Brian Karas
Nov 23, 2017
IPVM

I'd be surprised if they recorded to an SD card. Way too much logistical hassle, and what are the odds that someone pockets something right in front of the camera anyway? Otherwise, all you have is proof that someone took an item off the shelf, like any other customer.

These look like the modern equivalent of motion-activated floodlights for retail theft reduction. They may intimidate or scare away average thieves, but I doubt the organized groups pay any mind to them.

U
Undisclosed #3
Nov 22, 2017

I have long thought that big box retail self-checkout lines were flawed in design on a number of levels...

1.  It doesn't factor in the stupidity of average humans.

What appears to those with IQs above room temperature to be a very simple process - placing a succession of items over a scanner - can easily confuse half of the people who attempt to use them - which eventually leads those in line behind them to contemplate their beatings.

2.  It invites thieves to 'accidentally' mis-scan high-value items.

Unlike having to conceal items and get them past the registers, now they can just claim an 'error' - which is a much lower threshold of responsibility, and consequently, far tougher to prosecute as a willful act.

Also, high-value items that are tough to conceal can now be stolen by 'mis-scanning'.  I think the stores finally realized this - which is the reason for the added 'possible perp' camera with warnings.

 

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

As far as mis scanning, I was under the impression there was a scale in the bag area, and more or less matched the weight to the items scanned.

 

At Home Depot I have tried scanning items like j boxes and throwing 10 in the bag, and holding one in my hand and just scan the same one over and over. No Bueno. I know I have tried various variations and have just resorted to scan, bag, scan, bag over and over.

U
Undisclosed #3
Nov 22, 2017

Better solution:

Customer places item in container on conveyor which passes item into chute (think passing through your stuff via TSA checkpoints at US airports).

Scanner is somewhere in the chute and scans your items as they pass.

Items come out of the chute and are bagged.

Solves purposeful mis-scanning of items.

(EDIT:  no need for perp cams)

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U
Undisclosed #5
Nov 22, 2017

I think they should just have knightscope bots follow shoppers around.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #6
Nov 22, 2017

So what do you think? Creepy? Necessary? Any alternative processes or technologies that could be used?

First, the chains save a lot of money with self checkout, but it's a huge area of shrink (Loss). It's generally used by customers who don't want to wait in line.  Usually the savings on labor is far greater than the the shrink, but in certain stores the Public View Monitors become a necessity. The idea is to make you aware you are under observation (keep honest people honest). The alternative is no PVMs, but you're still being recorded. The stores don't have the LP budget to have a dedicated LPM watch self checkout in real time

Our local Home Depot has the tool-aisle PVM's also. But these add an extra layer of creepy, where a PIP window pops up showing a guy in a monitoring center. The popup changes to different clips, in many of them the guy picks up a phone to call someone and appears to be having a concerned conversation with the person on the other end. I think it is meant to imply the monitoring center guy is calling the store manager as he is watching you.

Brian, the shelf alarm systems you mention is designed to deter Organized Retail Crime  (ORC / shelf swiping) on the highest shrink items. That is purely recorded video and again is just a deterrent to try and scare the average potential shoplifter.  It may creep out some customers, but in reality it's helping some of these chains manage shrink.

Some of these are experimental technologies where they measure the shrink pre and post implementation to see if they reduced the shrink in the given product category the PVMs were installed in

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JH
John Honovich
Nov 22, 2017
IPVM

First, the chains save a lot of money with self checkout, but it's a huge area of shrink (Loss)

Any idea of what the average net financial impact is? That is, after factoring in labor savings and shrink increases, is it still that positive?

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #6
Nov 23, 2017

Any idea of what the average net financial impact is? That is, after factoring in labor savings and shrink increases, is it still that positive?

For this technology you are dealing with two separate parts of their business with two different budgets and ROI calculations. 

The Operations  group are the who is tasked with reducing labor and expediting the customer checkout experience. So they are the ones who make the final call on self checkout staying static, expanding or being eliminated. In my area, self checkout lanes at Wal-Mart & Sams quadrupled when those stores underwent remo this past summer so the ROI must be there. My nearest Target store hasn't changed (yet) 

The LP Dept. operates from a totally different budget and objective set. When inventory indicates a shrink rise they attempt to identify cause and then implement strategies to impact that number. Hence adding PVMs to the self checkouts

All that said, No, I've never seen a net / net summary although I'm sure at the highest levels there must be an analysis. I'll also say that Ops always gets what Ops wants. LP is left to mitigate the results

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Daniel S-T
Nov 26, 2017

I think people have become desensitized to the fact cameras are watching them. That or usually they are high up in the ceiling, people don't see the sign when they walk in, they steal. Having a monitor right there in your face, why not? You're on camera regardless, I don't see how it would be creepy for you to now see yourself in the monitor.

Home Depot has had similar devices in the tool isles, and randomly through the store, I guess in high value small item areas.

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Mark Palka
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I think that this is really a first step. All this application does is shows a person what the camera sees and what is being recorded. The next step is put another screen up showing someone remotely watching back live.

U
Undisclosed #4
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

The next step is put another screen up showing someone remotely watching back live.

Note Kojak at lower left.

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U
Undisclosed #3
Nov 27, 2017

no c....  Kojak

U
Undisclosed #4
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

thx, fixed.

Avatar
Mark Palka
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I missed that thank you

JH
John Honovich
May 27, 2018
IPVM
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