Subscriber Discussion

CCTV Server In The Cloud - Pros? Cons?

DS
David Shepherd
Aug 02, 2017

Basically, without revealing too many details about the customer, we have a customer who runs a VMS (looking to move to NX Witness), and wants to move their CCTV server infrastructure into the cloud. They have around 50 IP cameras running at 1080p.

Before anyone says anything, I have voiced my concerns on this, that with the amount of data being transferred over the Internet, that the performance will suffer compared to having the server on site, and that their Internet usage, and costs will skyrocket with the sheer terabytes upon terabytes of data being transferred across the Internet per month, and that to get anything near decent performance they'd have to dial the image quality right down, and that the reliability and stability of the system will also suffer. Regardless, despite the fact that I think it will end in tears they want to move their CCTV server infrastructure into the cloud.

Anyway, the reason I'm posting - I want to know - is this even possible? Has it been done? I can find plenty of information about connecting to an NX Witness system, and CCTV systems in general over the Cloud, and about cloud backup storage, but nothing about actually hosting server infrastructure for a VMS in the cloud and having cameras record directly to a cloud server.  Thanks in advance.

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JH
John Honovich
Aug 02, 2017
IPVM

David, you could theoretically run any VMS in the 'cloud.'

At the most simplistic level, you could rent space in a co-location facility and put your own computer with the VMS loaded there and have it connect out to the cameras wherever, etc. To be clear, I am not recommending this, I am just saying it is theoretically possible and basically the lowest level of being in the 'cloud'.

At the complete other end are services like Eagle Eye and OpenEye (and I mention those 2 because they are VMSes designed to record in the cloud). They have a whole application infrastructure in the cloud and all of it is handled by them. You just connect in and they make it work.

In the middle, there are some VMSes that can or could be hosted with some cloud based features but requires work on your own. For example, we have heard a number of organizations deploy Milestone XProtect Corporate with Axis One Click to build their own sort of VSaaS / cloud offering but there is still quite a lot to manage going that route.

Another option is Genetec, which has both their traditional server based Security Center as well as their cloud / VSaaS offering Stratocast, which can be combined together for those who want some traditional recording and some cloud based.

I just laid out a few broad options to help get the discussion started. Let us know what other questions we can answer.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Aug 02, 2017

Not sure this an accurate description in regards to OpenEye's capabilities. 

"OpenEye (and I mention those 2 because they are VMSes designed to record in the cloud)." 

??

My understanding is that users can push event back ups to the cloud with the Open Eye solution. From their website: 

Store & Share Videos Online

Export video to the cloud, and then share it via a password protected link with law enforcement or coworkers.

Similar to exporting  video to Dropbox, not sure how this  qualifies as "record in the cloud" 

"They have a whole application infrastructure in the cloud and all of it is handled by them."

Does not square with the IPVM's own report: 

In this regard, OpenEye has a solid approach, keeping storage on-site minimizes demand on upstream bandwidth, however since all user authentication and other management functions go through OpenEye's cloud servers, customers suffering an Internet outage may find the system limited or unusable.

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Sergey Bystrov
Aug 02, 2017
NetworkOptix

While I  believe technically it's doable, I'm not sure what for...

I did not do something like that by myself and not aware anybody did so. But this is how it should work:

There is a regular server. It's just hosted somewhere remotely( in the "cloud").

The key here - server has access to the cameras (can connect to each one of them).

I believe the easiest way to do so would be creating VPN so server and cameras are in the same logical network while being remote. Besides you have to meet bandwidth limitations.

This is it.  Such scheme could be implemented with ANY VMS. There is nothing special about NetworkOptix.

However, I'm not sure what would be the benefit. The one I can think about: serverless site. 

Instead, I would consider having a regular onsite server, and backup archive to the cloud( maybe events/bookmarks only or so). This way you secure data and have no internet related issues. 

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Aug 02, 2017

My concern would be what happens to the video when you stop paying the subscription.  Who owns the video and what happens to it?  I am assuming you would have a short window (14 days?) to re-subscribe before you totally lose access to the video and after given time frame (90 days?) the data would be permanently deleted.  

The other concern is the cost of uplink bandwidth.  We all know video is a bandwidth hog.  If you don't have Internet Fiber in your area the cost of upgrading your internet connection to accommodate the upload bandwidth can be expensive... that and upload reliability would be a concern. 

The cost of storage has come down significantly over the last few years; I'm starting to see 10TB HDDs being offered at the cost of 4TB HDDs from 4 or 5 years ago.  I agree with Sergey; use a local server to ensure that you have the data on a locally accessible HDD, use the cloud for storing video that you need to share outside of your organization (i.e. law enforcement, lawyers, etc.).  

The last thing you want to deal with is not being able to access critical data.  

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Hans Kahler
Aug 02, 2017
Eagle Eye Networks

Full disclosure - I work at Eagle Eye Networks.  I will try to keep this informational, and not a sales pitch.

People are moving to the cloud for all kinds of reasons across all business systems.  Email is the obvious one, almost nobody hosts their own mail servers anymore.  Applications are another one, either Office 365 or Google Apps (GSuite.)  Quickbooks online, online time tracking, online HR systems such as ADP, cloud based phone systems, point of sale systems and the list goes on.  

These systems offer many benefits to end users, which include:

  • Simplified setup of new users 
  • Centralized management
  • Use your existing devices (iPhones, Android tablets, Mac, PC, whatever) 
  • little to no start up costs
  • constant updates
  • cyber security
  • etc...

Many business owners/managers want to worry less about their business systems and focus more on their core business.  Cloud allows them to do that.  

The bandwidth challenges of video are real.  While it is true that bandwidth costs are decreasing and speed is increasing, there are still many sites that don't have enough bandwidth to get all of the video to the cloud for long term storage.  This could be because of a limitation on bandwidth or because of a large number of cameras.  

At Eagle Eye we have an onsite appliance called a Bridge that can store the video for a short amount of time (1-2 days) as a buffer to wait until bandwidth is available.  This allows for network outages or more commonly, network congestion.  In other words, we are not dependent on a reliable internet connection for high quality video.  We also have a different appliance called a CMVR (Cloud Managed Video Recorder.)  There are several versions of this appliance, with up to 50 TB of local disk.  This allows the video to be stored locally, but still provides all of the benefits of cloud management, updates, cyber security, etc...  

No one product is the right fit for all situations, and cloud is no different.  Sometimes cloud may not be the best fit for a customer, whether this is video surveillance, email systems or accounting systems.  However, there are a lot of customers that benefit from cloud services in general, and specifically video surveillance. 

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Jon Dillabaugh
Aug 02, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

You mention a bunch of low data based products that have moved to the cloud. Video doesn't fit into this group well. I am not saying anything negative about your product model per se, but just pointing out that just because email hosting has moved off site doesn't equate to terrabytes of video storage being moved off site as well.

I think that sometimes people just like to hear buzzwords like "the cloud" and "IoT" and generate reasons to use these "ideas" when they really aren't logical.

I think having a local VMS server is essential. Similar to having a local AD server for every branch is essential. Some things should just remain local.

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DR
Drew Rollins
Aug 02, 2017

At one point everyone said hosting email was out of the question for businesses. Now it is standard, with terabytes of email being stored. Eventually cloud based video will become standard it is just a matter of when. A huge bottleneck is the availability of high speed internet, and this is slowly going away. I've used Eagle Eye for a few customers and cloud based video was the best solution. I also have other clients where it isn't ideal.

I do agree about the buzzwords making non technical people jump on something that isn't ideal or possible. 

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Jon Dillabaugh
Aug 02, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

Other than not owning the hardware, I'm unsure what benefit a cloud based VMS offers an end user. All maintenance can be remotely managed, and very likely is to a great extent, even for cloud based systems. I highly doubt someone walks down to the NOC and plugs directly into any server, unless there are major issues. 

As far as the cost of owning the hardware, end users can always lease hardware from existing IT sources. 

And then, you have the recurring cost of a much larger internet pipe that offsets almost any financial gain on sharing hardware pools gained with a hosted service. 

And email isn't always hosted these days. In fact, many tightly regulated industries are forbidden to do so.

Also, email in its origin was an intra office system. As internet connectivity became more widespread, it became more viable to have a hosted solution. Email is also not a constant stream of data, like video, as well as not being as time sensitive. There are so many differences between email and video that it's more different than similar IMO. 

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Nick Giannakis
Aug 02, 2017

Jon, from purely an architectural stand point, cloud solutions provide streamlined remote management value. Multi-factor, single sign-on with No port forwarding / No DDNS / No VPN required. Because of this, I would also argue that cloud platforms provide added cyber security.

Additionally, centralized management in the cloud provides real-time software updates, authentication of log-in requests and aggregate system health data. For federated or multi-location customers, this is particularly valuable.  

If you have not fully evaluated a cloud VMS product I would be happy to continue this discussion off-line. NGiannakis@openeye.net

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Jon Dillabaugh
Aug 02, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

I get all of those features in Nx Witness / DW Spectrum. 

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Nick Giannakis
Aug 02, 2017

Jon, admittedly I have limited understanding of NX/DW but I believe you are overstating. From the IPVM coverage of NxWitness I see:

  • No single configuration interface: Configuration options are spread through different menus, with no central location to configure the system. This may be confusing for new or occasional users, or even those frequently using the system, as they must remember which options are in a given menu.
  • Limited enterprise viewing/management: Users may connect to only one system at a time (though each system may be multiple servers). Those wishing to keep systems logically separate across geographic locations may find this problematic.

Additionally, it appears configuration requires their thick client meaning software must be downloaded on a workstation for users/administrators. In my opinion, a dedicated workstation doesn’t represent streamlined remote management. Also, I wasn’t aware NX/DW offered multi factor log-in authentication. Lastly, it is unclear to me how the server-hive concept is achieved with-out open inbound ports or a DDNS service, perhaps you could elaborate?

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Jon Dillabaugh
Aug 02, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

All of the settings can be made from any thick client, anywhere in the system. You are making it much more complicated than reality. There is a menu for the system. One for each server, and one for cameras.

Since version 2.5, you can merge servers into a unified system with one set of credentials system wide. Multi sites can also connect without port forwarding at all sites (before 3.0 you had to have one site port forwarded). In 3.0 they introduced their Cloud connect option, which simply uses their web server as the internet facing system, instead of one of your own. No video is stored or passed thru this remote server. 

Also, they have a web client interface on all servers. It isn't fully featured like the thick client, but you can live view any server or camera in the system, no software to install at all. 

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Nick Giannakis
Aug 02, 2017

Thanks for the clarification Jon. 'Cloud connect' you say?... steps in the right direction. Since this particular customer is asking about converting the system entirely to cloud, I imagine they would expect/appreciate full web based management. If they don't want to maintain hardware why would they want to maintain software?

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Jon Dillabaugh
Aug 02, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

My clients don't have to maintain anything. I can remote connect to all of my servers and take care of it all. As far as I'm concerned, every server in in the "cloud". 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Aug 07, 2017

Correct - the difference between voice/video cloud hosting and any other kind of data is that CCTV and voice must be in real time - buffering and other such work-arounds are unacceptable. This makes the whole thing vastly more expensive to implement - you need larger internet pipes, you need those pipes to be protected using various point-to-point, mpls and sd-wan technology. This layers considerable cost on to the solution. 

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geert Huisman
Aug 03, 2017

Hans, I would like to get more information, for a project of up to 6 camera's on 5 locations, 3 MP for a neighborhood. The camera's are already there, but they have some issues with the former integrator and requested our help. I have to make the decision if we will store in the cloud or we would have 5 NVR's at the locations

 

I can be reached at +59996703604 or geert@innotechbv.com

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Jared Beagley
Aug 02, 2017
Seagate Technology

Theoretically one of the biggest advantages of cloud is having someone else do it; that it's someone else's infrastructure, their hardware, their headache. Their storage costs and the cost of managing that storage is on them. Out of sight, out of mind.Of course, this means finding a strong enough business relationship that you trust the people doing this, keeping it secure, managing it, and overseeing the whole thing are competent and responsible enough that it is being handled correctly, or you're the one who suffers.

In my personal use, cloud is most effective as a backup option for a solid 3-2-1 backup strategy as that 3rd copy of your data stored somewhere else to protect against data loss due to natural disasters.

The biggest concern for me would be security. Wireless is just less secure any way you shake it, and "the cloud" equals relying more on wireless. Yes, I'm sure there are great things different cloud service companies out there are doing to address these concerns, I will be the first to admit I'm not the most up to date on the specifics of that arena, but that doesn't change the nature of the beast, and does represent a point of concern.

Depending on what the client's needs are, the benefits of putting that infrastructure, management, and man-hours on someone else's shoulders may be worth it or it may not, the client and the relationship you have with them would be the only way of knowing that. Of course, if you're talking about not using an established cloud service and them setting up their own, it's a different animal, but to me all the extra work, infrastructure and management requirements just for slightly more convenience and a less-secure solution seems like an unnecessary headache.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Aug 02, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

The biggest concern for me would be security. Wireless is just less secure any way you shake it, and "the cloud" equals relying more on wireless

I don't get why you would think cloud and wireless would be necessarily related?

Even so, wireless encryption is pretty standard these days, where wired transmissions generally are not. 

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Jared Beagley
Aug 02, 2017
Seagate Technology

Because cloud storage solutions involves transmitting data wirelessly to the storage point. With good security/encryption strategies, these problems can be mitigrated to some degree, you're right, but it's still a matter of things being able to be snipped out of the air versus a physical wired connection.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Aug 02, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

Why do you insist that cloud based solutions require a wireless element? They surely could have them, but a large majority will not. 

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Jared Beagley
Aug 02, 2017
Seagate Technology

Okay, well you bring up a valid point that not all cloud solutions are wireless. I never meant to imply that they exclusively are. I've just usually seen it done wirelessly often. The comment was not meant to sound all-encompassing.

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Nick Giannakis
Aug 02, 2017
Upfront disclosure, I work for OpenEye. I agree with the input provided by Hans and Jared. Embracing cloud solutions provides many benefits from a management / convenience and cyber-security perspective. The most important consideration when choosing a solution, is to determine the primary objectives of the end-user. 
 
Your question implied that the end-user wants to move their entire sever infrastructure to the cloud. The camera-to-cloud option is appealing for small deployments but has limitations (cost, bandwidth, redundancy, and performance). For a (50) camera deployment I would recommend a hybrid approach. Leverage the performance of a system with local storage and the management conveniences and cyber-security benefits of a cloud solution. 
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geert Huisman
Aug 03, 2017

Nick, I would like to get more information, for a project of up to 6 camera's on 5 locations, 3 MP for a neighborhood. The camera's are already there, but they have some issues with the former integrator and requested our help. I have to make the decision if we will store in the cloud or we would have 5 NVR's at the locations

I can be reached at +59996703604 or geert@innotechbv.com

DS
David Shepherd
Aug 03, 2017

Thanks for your input everyone. The Eagle Eye solution looks like it will fit the bill, and I have passed information onto my colleagues. Are there any distributors in Australia who sell and support it?

The site has a decent IT infrastructure, with a very good Internet connection with fast upload and download speeds, though still not as fast or as reliable as a 100Mbps LAN connection. Regardless I am still putting forward my strongest recommendation that the server infrastructure remain on site for several reasons mentioned in my OP.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Aug 03, 2017

Every time we've been asked to record a couple of the clients remote located cameras over the Internet to the main office system so that they would not have to buy another recorder to go in the remote location, we give them all the disclaimers we can.... Don't expect reliable connections. Don't expect more than a couple FPS, or less. Expect gaps in video that can last up to a minute at a time, or more if the connection goes down. And they tell you "yeah, yeah, we understand". But 6 months down the road they are complaining about slow live video and asking why there are gaps in the video, and what can we do to make it better without them having to buy faster, more expensive connections.

Oh, and I forgot, you tell them what minimum Internet upload speed they should buy for the remote location. They always buy slower (cheaper), and pretend you never told them what they needed to get. But you're still expected to make it work like they want.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Aug 10, 2017

Just seeing this discussion from the email update from IPVM.  

Still some miss the differences.  True cloud is instant recording offsite.  Usually don't have incredibly high frame rates but the data is safe.  If Internet uptime is an issue (it isn't much anymore), then put an SD card in for short term issues.

Store and forward, like Eagle Eye if I'm not mistaken, is putting a device onsite doing the recording and then pushing data to a data-center.  If someone breaks into your shop and steals the device the data is gone, just like a DVR (it's happened to 4 places we know).  I don't know the pace of cloud storage so how fast they'd steal it I don't know.

But any cloud storage or true cloud should be easy web management for all sites with central user databases, not 10 dvr's for 10 sites.

There are differences...you just have to list your priorities out and go from there.

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Luis Carmona
Aug 10, 2017
Geutebruck USA • IPVMU Certified

Store and forward, like Eagle Eye if I'm not mistaken, is putting a device onsite doing the recording and then pushing data to a data-center. If someone breaks into your shop and steals the device the data is gone, just like a DVR

We've used Eagle Eye products. They can work in different ways:

- Store and forward, as you say. But it is not store for a long time if it can be helped. It is for when there are intermittent interruptions or significant slow downs in Internet speed. Otherwise video is uploaded as fast as it can, as it occurs. Chances are someone breaks in where there is an Eagle Eye or any similar system using store and forward, video of it is still going to end up in the cloud unless the Internet was out at that moment.

- Record to cloud only. Not recommended since I believe all their gateway appliances come with storage, so why not use it.

- Store local only. Cloud access is just for viewing video.

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Hans Kahler
Aug 10, 2017
Eagle Eye Networks

Luis is right, but I'd like to expand on his comments.  

Eagle Eye actually uses 2 streams of video for each camera, a low resolution and a high resolution.  Each stream can be managed separately.  The system can send these streams to the cloud in real time, or do the so called store and forward.  Either way, a copy of the video is stored locally until the cloud confirms that the video is safely stored off site.  

By default, the low resolution stream is sent to the cloud in real time, which uses a small amount of bandwidth, and the high resolution goes to the cloud based on available bandwidth and a variety of other rules such as business hours.  However, if the customer has enough bandwidth, both streams can go to the cloud in real time. 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Aug 10, 2017

"Move to the cloud"

this is a marketing slogan. 

Needs matched with the appropriate technology should drive the solution not slogans.

i tend to follow an "all of the above" mindset when designing/recommending a solution, rather than boxing myself in to an "either/or" mentality.

generally the answer to cloud or premise is - yes. 

Neither by itself can deliver everything that is possible. So, by recommending an either/or solution, you short-change the client somewhere by denying him certain available technology.

the cloud/premises either/or paradigm is a trap. For both integrators and their clients. 

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