Subscriber Discussion

Cat6 With Extender Or Fiber?

JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 18, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I think the answer is pretty clear but just wondering what everyone else thinks?

 

We will have a switch with 34 cameras on it. That switch needs to connect to the head end that is easily 500' away.

 

The choice is fiber or Cat5/6 with extenders.

 

If running fiber would it be best to use single mode or dual mode?

 

The building is a food plant with 30' ceilings. There is a 3' to 5' space between the insulation of the warehouse and the roof of the building (solid material, no fall through hazard according to building engineer). Like a mini attic. The fiber will be run through the trusses. While the fiber will be pretty much out of the way, it is likely contractors will be up there as this is the access area for sprinklers, electrical wiring, etc.

What is the best fiber for this application?

 

We will probably pull the fiber and have someone come in and terminate/test it.

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 18, 2017

MM fiber will work fine.  I would pull nothing less then 6 strands.  We normally pull the raw fiber and term ourselves as it is easy to do.

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 18, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I wouldnt be opposed to investing in some entry level equipment for fiber.

Are there any good sources for learning how to terminate? YouTube?

 

At another company we pulled some fiber on a project and messed it up. I think we pulled too hard and it got stretched. 

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 18, 2017

Look up AFL Fast connectors.

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 19, 2017
IPVMU Certified

i watched some YouTube videos. They look really easy to install. What are you using to test the fiber?

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 19, 2017

You just need to get the AFL cleaver kit and your good to go.  I had one project years ago that I needed to re-term the fiber as we needed different connectors (fiber was ST and we needed SC) so I ordered the AFL kit and it has paid for itself 10x over since    

One of my techs was a Verizon FiOS tech who laughed at these when I first handed the connectors to him.  Everything he did prior was fusion spliced. After the first job, he loved them. 

When you order the kit it should come with a laser that you can use to check your termination.  It is a very simple pass/fails test.  We have never had an issue with the fiber if the connector test passed. 

Right now I do not have an OTDR but at some point, I will add one to my OneTouch AT.  After installing the ends I will check the switch for FCS errors or now use our Optiview XG to check for FCS errors and do speed tests.    

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MC
Marty Calhoun
Nov 18, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Multi-mode  is the most economical way to go. Use SFP sticks at the switches of your choice. Terminate with LC connectors. Pick up your SFP sticks online, normally <10 each, anymore you being ripped off. Don't be scared of fiber it has came way down in price and super easy for your technicians to learn how to terminate.

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MM
Michael Miller
Nov 18, 2017

Marty what switches are you using where the SFPs are under $10?

MC
Marty Calhoun
Nov 19, 2017
IPVMU Certified

DLINK Commercial 121028 P   24 port POE  <250 bucks

Never had a failure

 

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MC
Marty Calhoun
Nov 19, 2017
IPVMU Certified

DLINK Commercial Line  121028 P Smart-Managed Switch

http://us.dlink.com/products/business-solutions/dgs-1210-28p/

28 port POE + (4) SFP

<250 bucks

Never had a Failure OR return for any reason

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Avatar
Scott Smith
Nov 18, 2017
IPVMU Certified

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qigN8qR5ptM

JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 19, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Thanks. Cool tool but it seems pretty expensive compared to the AFL connectors

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Scott Smith
Nov 20, 2017
IPVMU Certified

That's what the pros use. We have 3 of those kits we use when we aren't fusion splicing. 
The Pretium system gives you a red light or green light before you crimp the connector. It is the industry standard.

 

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Joseph Parker
Nov 22, 2017

This is all we use, works great, very low failure rate.  I use singlemode only, it's really not a big premium over multimode and distance limitations never enter the equation.

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Avatar
Scott Smith
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I have to agree. I have used 10k SM Gbics at 400' with no issues. 

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 22, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

For how long of a period? I was trained that using SM that close needed padded to keep from burning out the GBICs on the receive side. 

JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 19, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Do you have to use the same connectors at each end? I plan on using Multi Mode LC at my switch but as of now, I do not know what is at the head end.

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 19, 2017

No you don't need to match connectors on each end thought it is ideal.  All the new fiber work I see has LC connectors.

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Scott Smith
Nov 20, 2017
IPVMU Certified

There are LC to LC, LC to ST, LC to SC patch cables.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 19, 2017

Pull innerduct with pullstring and buy a custom made preterminated fiber with pulling eye. (the tape/foot markers should give you a good idea length to order preterm assemblies). We used to get these from companies like Major Custom Cable and Quicktron. You could also get armored fiber preterminated. Very reasonable if you don't have termination and test equipment. Multimode would be easier to terminate yourself, but singlemode fiber is much cheaper, offsetting the cost of the higher priced SFP. I personally don't understand why anyone uses multimode anymore. The electronics usually made the difference but the delta is long gone. 

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MM
Michael Miller
Nov 19, 2017

Or you could go with Air Blown fiber :)

Old video but shows how it works.  This is what our big customers use. 

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Scott Smith
Nov 20, 2017
IPVMU Certified

We have a Sumitumo Fusion splicer that will fuse 12 strands of ribbon simultaneously. 
http://global-sei.com/sumitomo-electric-splicers/products/fusion-splicer/t-71m12.html

 

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 21, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

Singlemode would need to be greatly padded for that short of a run, no? 500’ is a very short run for fiber in general. 

RM
Rohan Morris
Nov 21, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I agree with the use of Fiber vs UTP Extenders.  Fiber is a more direct, best suited solution.

What is the best fiber for this application?

MM Fiber/cable costs more than SM.  However, MM SFP sticks cost less than SM SFP sticks.   Multimode (MM) may prove to be the lower cost option (SM lasers sources cost more than MM sources).   The distance (500') is not a challenge for Fiber.  However, if the head-end location might be relocated >500 meters away in the future, then SM Fiber & Sticks would be the recommended solution.   If MM is decided, I would recommend OM3 or OM4 "grade" Fiber (in Indoor/Outdoor Tight-buffered cable) for MM future-proofing.

 

We will probably pull the fiber and have someone come in and terminate/test it.

If you do not have much prior experience implementing Fiber, this would be a recommended strategy.   As was also previously recommended, the use of an inner duct with pre-installed pull-string/tape is highly advised for long term physical protection/reliability (Not to mention making the cable pull a breeze! My first install in the early 90's actually utilised innerduct pre-installed with pre-terminated 6 Fiber cable!  Install was 1-2-3! Still in use today. Not a single issue since).

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Scott Smith
Nov 21, 2017
IPVMU Certified

The next project we have with remote cameras especially pole cameras we are going to take a hard look at the new Altronix Netway product.
https://www.altronix.com/products/NetWaySP8WP

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Looks interesting. We do an enclosure with UPS, POE switch etc. The only issue I see is this does not provide 24V for Ubiquiti devices, and not sure if it has Ping Watchdog that automatically pings and reboots offline devices.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Nov 22, 2017

not sure if it has Ping Watchdog that automatically pings and reboots offline devices

According to the specs of the Altronix unit...

  • Remote network management allows for camera/device reset and monitoring.
  • Provides local and/or remote access to critical information via LAN/WAN.
  • Email and Windows Dashboard Alert notifications report real-time diagnostics.
  • Event log tracks history.
JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Haven't had the need for fiber in over a year. Now I have a 2nd project needing fiber.

 

When using MM, do you need two SFP sticks, and you lose both SFP ports? What if you need to daisy chain switches? On this 2nd project, we have a large facility that will need multiple switches throughout the facility. The head end is located at one end of the building. I am still seeing what equipment is in place but it looks like we will want to run fiber to a switch that already has fiber in it. The existing switch is connected to the head end. 

 

Avatar
Scott Smith
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

The SFP Module (GBIC) has 2 ports. (Send and receive) and uses 2 strands of fiber.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 22, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

In that case Jay, you will need a core switch to aggregate all of your fiber switches. 

https://www.ubnt.com/edgemax/edgeswitch-16-xg/

 

JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

The vendor was telling me with MM duplex cable, we would need 2 SFP sticks. One strand into one stick, the other strand into the other stick.

https://futurereadysolutions.com/product-category/bulk-fiber/fiber-optic-cable-multi-mode/

Didn't seem right but then I saw Ubiquiti sells their sticks in pairs.

But then it looks like they have two ports per stick.

 

 

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 22, 2017

MM fiber uses two strands of fiber. 

RM
Rohan Morris
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I think there's some confusion with the definition of the term "Port" in this discussion.

A Switch "Port" (in the context of this discussion) is usually defined as the physical socket on the switch that a computer would plug into (1 port = 1 computer).

The number of Fibers required to support that connection is a different thing.  Eg. Connecting a computer with MM /SM Fiber would commonly require 2 Fibers (hence, two connectors at each end) to support that connection. The two connectors at the switch end would plug into 1 SFP stick.  Similar at the computer end.

(Note that solutions requiring only a single Fiber exist but not as common in LANs)

Hence, re the statement:

"The vendor was telling me with MM duplex cable, we would need 2 SFP sticks. One strand into one stick, the other strand into the other stick."

The correct interpretation should be:  

- 2 SFP sticks, one at each end. Two strands into stick 1 at end A, two strands into    stick 2 at end B.

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Thank you. That helps clear it up quite a bit. If I have 2 switches with 2 SFP ports each. I use one SFP port on each one, then the 2nd SFP port allows me to make another fiber connection to another location.

 

Next question.

 

MM uses two strands, and SM uses two strands?

 

Some of these SM sticks can only hold accept one strand. Are these for those non common uses?

 

 

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Scott Smith
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Single strand fiber connections are very rare. It's common in CableTV plant and high end long haul data transmissions (Like AT&T and Verizon) across the continent.  

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Avatar
Scott Smith
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

 

RM
Rohan Morris
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Stay away from the "single strand" sticks if you are not already familiar with a reliable source.  And booby-traps await if not previously familiar with their use. eg. The same part no. is commonly NOT used at each end.  Yeah.  They must send and rcv. at different wavelengths on the same Fiber.  Which means differing part nos.   So one really needs to be confident about what they're doing.

"MM uses two strands, and SM uses two strands?"

Both MM & SM use two strands.  One for transmit and the other for rcv.  

But, please note that we are discussing details within the context of LAN applications.  Other applications can and do (eg. telecom, etc.) see more common use of  "single-Fiber" connections etc.

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RM
Rohan Morris
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Nov 22, 2017

Copper extenders and media converters have definitely been hit or miss. And it really hurts when it misses. Go with fiber.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 22, 2017

Dealing with one now where they want to use a specific power/ethernet over coax converter for about 20 cameras on brand new facility and install. Are they just going to duct tape these to a wall and mount some ugly junction boxes on receiving end? At about $400-500 per set with conduit homeruns, not going to be cost effective either. Makes me want to slap their mama.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Nov 22, 2017

Based on experience I would specifically exclude them from labor warranty, or pad in a good amount of additional labor cost associated with them if they want labor warranty. It will be luck if they work well and it will eat you up quick if it does not.

Avatar
Scott Smith
Nov 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Sounds like Veracity.

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Kyle Folger
Nov 23, 2017
IPVMU Certified

That's where I would prefer IDF distribution points and fiber between the switches. I know that is sometimes not possible because all cameras could be far away from each other. At that point, I would choose fiber as it also provides electrical isolation which is helpful on pole cameras or between buildings.

The only way I agree to use the converters is on existing coax cable after I inspect the coax cable for quality and look at how it was ran. You still have to deal with where to stick the typically large converters. On one project, we stuck them in junction boxes next to the cameras when they were outside. The look of it wasn't that much of a concern because it was a manufacturing facility.

We have been able to fit an Everfocus Palun in a larger Hikvision junction box with a very short and flexible Cat5e patch cable. This provided a finished look. Those converters work well for shorter runs and are small. I just wish the coax and Ethernet connection could be on the same side.

On this brand new facility, they want you to run brand new coax cable? If so that is really stupid.

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 23, 2017

Kyle Check out Vigitron's Ethernet over coax products.   This unit his very small for the camera end. 

 

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Avatar
Scott Smith
Nov 23, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I'm impressed with the Altronix ebridge line.

eBridge Line

Avatar
Kyle Folger
Nov 23, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Thanks, that does look small and has the connectors on the same side. How do you integrate that with an Avigilon bullet and junction box on an exterior camera? Have you needed to do that before? We used a separate junction box next to the camera because the Avigilon JB doesn't provide much room; just enough for the cable whip.

I typically don't use converters that often. On the one project I mentioned, I was a subcontractor. We designed our install on Altronix spec'd below being provided. Then when we received the parts I was surprised to see the Paluns instead. I always ask for the complete parts list because many items get left off such as corner mounts or pole mounts. I like to make sure everything is accounted for before they ship.

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 23, 2017

We really only uses these if it's cheaper then pulling a new cable.  Most they have been used in parking decks where everything is in conduit and pulling new cable is very expressive.    I will have to check with my team to see if they fit an the Avigilon Jbox.   I know they fit in a 2gang box with room to spare.

Avatar
Scott Smith
Nov 23, 2017
IPVMU Certified

We have had a few jobs with existing coax out to a pole where replacing the RG/59 was not really an option. 

I usually install an enclosure at the base of the pole and then run POE up to the camera. Just seems to be a cleaner look than a box 25 feet up a pole.

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Kyle Folger
Nov 23, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Agreed, if the pole has a base that will allow an enclosure. We had a pole without a base that was ran with RG-59. To avoid placing an enclosure outside of the pole, we ran new direct burial Cat cable. We also placed surge projectors at both ends of the cable. The surge protector was able to fit inside the arm bracket on the pole, which was a Moog WM40W. 

We have other poles with wireless and sometimes wired where we will use an enclosure. If there isn't room inside the base, we will mount an enclosure up out of reach without a ladder/bucket truck to avoid risk of tampering. 

Currently, I'm trying out a pole base junction box on a project to see how it works. I got the idea from a local hospital. Obviously, this can only be done on a new pole install. Although I provided instructions that the reason for the junction box was for a single 110 circuit and low voltage conduit. The project manager then told the electricians to wire everything through the junction boxes. Thankfully, I was able to meet with the electricians before the final conduit connections were made and after seeing more holes in the junction box than necessary. The electrician's comment to our conversation to make all lighting conduit go directly to the hand hole was, "That's makes it a lot easier."

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Joseph Marotta
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Hi Kyle, were these poles dedicated for the cameras only, or did the poles also have light fixtures on them?  I'm not sure if you're located in the US or not but the USA national electrical code prohibits running low voltage comm wiring (e.g. fiber, coax, data cables) together with 120/208/277v power inside a conduit or j-box without a barrier physically separating them. Also, the cables running up inside the pole either need to be in conduit (separating them from power), or the cable's outer jacket must be 300v rated (or be equal to at least the max voltage applied to any conductor). Licensed electricians would know this and "should" install per code, regardless how a client or general contractor wants it done. I hope that was the case. Just curious.

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Scott Smith
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

That is a gray area and there are exceptions.
Can I run fiber in the same conduit as Electrical?

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Joseph Marotta
Nov 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Hi Scott, Thanks for the link.

I'm not sure if it's really a gray area, but rather one that just needs good parsing.

The current 2017 NEC article 770.133 allows non-conductive fiber to occupy the same raceway with electric light and power. It doesn't permit non-conductive fiber to occupy the same cabinet, outlet box, panel, or similar enclosure housing electric light and power circuits.

The exceptions are when the fiber is functionally associated with the electric light or power; when the fiber is installed in factory assembled control centers; in industrial establishments where access is controlled by qualified persons; and the one I referenced, is where all electric light and power conductors are separated from the fiber by a permanent barrier. The condition of a camera on a light pole only meets the last exception which is requiring a barrier.

But the issue is more than just fiber, there is also low voltage power required for the camera, and coax if installing HD analog cameras on the pole.

NEC section 300.3(C) addresses conductors of different systems. It permits conductors rated 1000v or less to occupy the same raceway when all conductors have an insulation rating equal to or at least the maximum circuit voltage applied to any conductor within the raceway.

It's always good practice to err on the side of safety, and follow the NEC's minimum requirements. 

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Avatar
Kyle Folger
Nov 28, 2017
IPVMU Certified

The poles that are currently being put up are light poles that will have cameras on them. While the concrete junction box supports dividers, it wouldn't work because there would be no room left. With the way they were making the knockouts in the box, it would've been impossible to separate anyways. 

I did ask the electrician as a joke if this was a special project where it doesn't get inspected. He said it would be inspected. I had mentioned code to the GC as well. It doesn't now because it got changed, so there will only be a power outlet in the junction box and a network switch. The lighting conduits were routed directly to the hand hole. 

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

On our 2nd project we have a run of around 1000 +/-. We still have to measure but Google shows 950' and that is without having to go up and down as we make our way around the building.

Would this be a good place to use single mode? That way I can order 1100-1200 and not worry about splices? I assume single mode duplex would be the way to go?

 

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 26, 2017

MM will work fine for those distances.

JH
Jay Hobdy
Nov 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Can you get MM by the foot in 1200' pieces? Everything I have seen is 1000' boxes

Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 26, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

Yes, MM is generally good up to 550m/1800ft. You should call FIS for help getting the correct product. They are fiber experts and can help you along the way. 

http://www.fiberinstrumentsales.com/

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 26, 2017

Yea you can get custom lengths not a problem. 

DR
Dennis Ruban
Nov 27, 2017

I'd pick SM fiber. But, if cost is an issue, cat5e cable with Ubiquiti US-8 (PoE powered) switch would be an acceptable solution to get gigabit uplink to your remote switch.

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Kyle Folger
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I thought Jay mentioned that this run is over the 100M standard so I don't think I would recommend copper to push that distance even if it might theoretically work. Fiber has the benefit of extended length and electrical isolation. In his case, length is the primary benefit of fiber.

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DR
Dennis Ruban
Nov 27, 2017

I mentioned PoE powered switch if they decide to go with a copper. It will act as a repeater, powered by the link itself so there's no need for an extra cable. I understand that fiber would be a better solution from the different perspectives but sometimes budget is a limit

Avatar
Kyle Folger
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Every switch to switch link has a 100M standard limit unless it is a device that is designed to push farther than that. If the main switch needs to connect to a head end switch that is 500' away, how will a POE powered switch help? I don't see it mentioned in the Ubiquiti spec sheet where it mentions pushing data over that 100M limit. While you could use a midspan, I personally hate the idea of a midspan. It has always felt like a hack to get the distance that fiber can easily push. 

DR
Dennis Ruban
Nov 27, 2017

now I'm glad I didn't purchase IPVM courses for my security agents :)

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Kyle Folger
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

You could just answer my question instead of trying to insinuate IPVM courses didn't provide a value. Networking isn't really a part of the camera course anyways. I'm just trying to understand what you are proposing. I also know that exceeding the 100M limit can work. However, if you are proposing using the Ubiquiti US-8 between the head end switch and the camera switch, then I would say there are ways to designing that are best practices and some that are not. This idea would fall in the latter in my opinion. I like to minimize points of failure. 

Now, if there was a reason to add a switch in the middle for purposes of powering other cameras, then this would make more sense.

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DR
Dennis Ruban
Nov 27, 2017

sorry, I got your point now. In my area, people usually use lowercase m for meters and capital M for Mbits. I was like "what is this guy talking about? 100 mbits limit for switch-to-switch link?"

Undisclosed Integrator #2 explained everything. Didn't mean to be offensive, just misunderstanding, sorry

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Kyle Folger
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

No worries. I generally don't spell metric units out and should have just gone with 300' even though it's really around 328'. If I spell out network nomenclature, I will always list 100Mb or 100MB. It drives me nuts when you call a cable provider and they say your download speed is 50Mb but state megabytes. When they do that, I should just say I wish it was. 

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Nov 27, 2017

Kyle, the Ubiquiti switch Dennis mentions is a switch that is both POE powered and passes through POE power. So with the link in behind the switch (100m max) and forward of the switch (100m max), that's 200 meters max, or around 630'. Jay says his link requires 500'.

You could technically call it a midspan, but POE midspans traditional are AC powered and only do 1 to 1 port POE power injection to add POE capabilities to non-POE switches, and don't usually have network "switch" technology.

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Kyle Folger
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Thanks for the clarification. That's all I was asking. I fully understand how it works and I realize that the switch is PoE powered. I just wouldn't want a switch randomly in the ceiling where it's only purpose is extending the network connection to gain more distance when fiber would be more appropriate.

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MM
Michael Miller
Nov 27, 2017

A major disadvantage is your adding multiple failure points and cost of 3 additional switches to the mix.   

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DR
Dennis Ruban
Nov 27, 2017

just one switch. He has his access level device with 34 cameras connected and a core switch. So it's just one repeater.

Again, I agree, fiber is a better solution with no doubts. Just in case if the total budget is around $200, copper and a repeater switch would be the only option

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Nov 27, 2017

Michael, what would be the 3 additional switches? Jay says he has one switch already with 34 cameras. That switch needs to link to the head end 500' away. Adding the switch Dennis mentioned would link the two points within Cat5/6 Ethernet distance limits if it was installed near the mid point, so that would only be (1) additional switch (plus mounting and enclosure).

I do agree it's an added failure point and not my preference.

... Even though technically if you did fiber, that would be (2) added possible failure points, since you would be adding SFP modules one at each end, so that would be 2 added electronic devices added separate from the switches. However, I'd trust the SFP modules for longer longevity and less problems than putting a switch or other Ethernet repeater in between.

MM
Michael Miller
Nov 27, 2017

On our 2nd project we have a run of around 1000 +/-. We still have to measure but Google shows 950' and that is without having to go up and down as we make our way around the building.

Would this be a good place to use single mode? That way I can order 1100-1200 and not worry about splices? I assume single mode duplex would be the way to go?

I forgot the original post was about 500ft.   I was referring to this post where he said he needed 1000+ ft which would require a switch every 300 feet. 

 

 

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Scott Smith
Nov 27, 2017
IPVMU Certified

If you want to stick with category cable several companies make end to end extenders for up to 500m @ 100mbps.

The downside is the greater risk for lightening.

Altronix Pace Extenders


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NL
Nicholas Lyle
Nov 27, 2017

You can order preterminated fiber in custom lengths from Lanshack. We have used it for multiple installs and it works great. 

http://www.lanshack.com/PreterminatedAssemblies.aspx 

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