Subscriber Discussion

Can We Lock People In Or Delay Exit?

JH
Jay Hobdy
Jun 06, 2017
IPVMU Certified

So before the rants come in. I am aware of free egress.

 

I just left a site. The summary is it is a boutique store with several million $ in inventory. two floors approximately 20K sq feet total. Usually one person working. A group came in, picked out merchandise on the 1st floor, then had the associate take them upstairs. One person from the group faked going to the car and picked up the merchandise from the 1st floor.

 

They are still totaling but estimate 300k in losses.

 

Of course the costco special failed....

 

So a new camera system is being discussed with TV's upstairs,downstairs, and phone access so associate can see everything when upstairs.

 

Is there ANYWAY to lock the front door to where the associate can "buzz" them out or delay the exit?

 

Would a talk with the AHJ help? I know we wont change their mind but maybe they have some exceptions?

 

Do pawn/gun shops still buzz people out? Its been 20 years since I have been in a pawn shop.

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Avatar
Brian Rhodes
Jun 06, 2017
IPVMU Certified

See: Delayed Egress Examined

and example product Delayed Egress Maglock Claims to Save Thousands as example of how to do it per code.

Not all areas approve delayed egress, (ie: Phoenix does not They apparently approve in some Building Occupancy Codes now.) and the exact delay period can vary, ie: 15 or 30 seconds, but there are ways to do this and still comply with 'free egress'.

For example, that maglock product above unlocks without delay when the fire alarm is pulled, so no one is trapped for any period when that happens, but otherwise begins a timer and sounds a siren during the delay period.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 06, 2017

I've seen plenty of #fail videos of people acting a fool and getting themselves locked into a convenience store to wait for the po-po to arrive and deal with them.  So I am sure the technology exists.

Note that this feature is usually engaged once the clerk is safely behind some kind of barrier.

My point is, do not discount the potential of extremely violent reactions by perps to being locked into the 'scene of the crime'.  The flight reaction is super high in these situations and locking in perps with your own store personnel can have bad outcomes depending on how intense that 'flight' feeling is as it overtakes the perp.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 06, 2017

sidebar:  $1M in inventory and a lone perp using a team to deploy a distraction con can relieve the store of ~1/3 of it's entire inventory that fast?

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Jun 06, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I said several million. Probably more.

 

I do not want to give specifics but think along the lines of fur coats.

 

Again I do not want to give details but there were some other safeguards in place and the associate made some mistakes.

U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 06, 2017

my bad.... I thought the numbers were off, when it was my reading comprehension that was the problem.  :)

For all those AHJ-ophiles out there.... how can convenience store clerks lock someone into the store without violating the free egress laws?

U
Undisclosed #1
Jun 06, 2017

further:  if the AHJ allows for emergency situational use of locking perps inside until the police arrive, what's to stop the perps from setting a fire inside - thereby invoking another set of emergency egress measures?

This issue intrigues me.... how can you balance the ability to escape deadly situations with the need to lock perps down on occasion when needed?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Jun 06, 2017

We have one approved where they had to card to move from one area to the next and that door was labeled as an exit. We installed a Rex mushroom button behind one of those flip up covers with a sounder, button had to be wired to both the maglock and the door controller. It was clearly labeled as a request to exit device. Mag also disengages during fire Alarm. As with anything, AHJ must be consulted. What was OK for us to do in that one town might not be in the next. 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Jun 06, 2017

if per nfpa , there has to be reasonable and unobstructed exit means to a safe place of Refuge in the event of emergency. 

Yes, you can delay the exit under ahj approval in certain circumstances 

and as long as the means for exit does not cause harm in any way. 

We Just did a daminja care home with delayed egress and as long as it did not impede exit . The occupants had a 10 sec. button hold to leave or exit. but this was to designated Areas of Refuge. Some doors had 1,2,3,4 keypads so as to delay exit. 

limit on door pressure was less than 5 lbs , and they tested with meter s to verify . 

We also work for some clients on projects which you cannot just walk out the doors , and they require badging and/or escorts  to exit.

some sites dont allow to leave with out escort exit.  

in case of fire there are directives in place to exit. 

Happens all the time on projects with Management or security on site to let us out . 

Avatar
Michael Silva
Jun 06, 2017
Silva Consultants

As others have said, in most cases you could probably get the AHJ to approve the use of a delayed-egress device on the entry door. This would give you a 15 or 30 second delay before a person could exit. However, I see numerous operational issues with using this type of device on the main door of a retail establishment. In a busy store, you would almost have to dedicate one clerk just to let people in and out the door. The installation of this type of setup at a high-end retail establishment could also be perceived negatively by customers which could have a negative impact on sales.

This is one of those cases where security technology alone is probably not the solution. You might want to suggest that your customer hire a qualified independent security consultant that specializes in retail security to come up with some recommendations. (No sales pitch here - this would not be me - I don't do retail.)

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Jun 06, 2017
IPVMU Certified

However, I see numerous operational issues with using this type of device on the main door of a retail establishment. In a busy store,

 

While it is retail, it is not busy. Some of the items in this store are worth 30-40K each.

It is the kind of place that if you have to ask how much it costs, you probably can not afford it... :) LOL

I was there for an hour+, and not a single customer walked in.

 

I think a 15 second delay would be great. Maybe tying in an audio notification when someone hits the exit button. That way if elsewhere in the building, they know when someone is trying to leave

 

 

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Avatar
Joseph Marotta
Jun 06, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Is it just me, or is this poor store policy to have only one employee on duty?  How much would it cost to have a second employee compared to the financial loss just experienced? Will insurance cover the losses? Probably. But what if they say the store was negligent by only having one employee to watch a 2-story store filled with expensive merchandise?

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Avatar
Scott Smith
Jun 07, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Not a retail setting but we have done many many "lock In" applications.

 

Example:

Mental Facility: Main entrance man trap tied to fire alarm. No delay egress.

All doors 100% read in and read out with mag locks. Not tied to fire alarm.
Their is an exception with Mental Facilities and Units in hospitals with new born babies.
As long as the staff has a override button and proper training, you can lock a unit down without fire alarm and without delayed egress.

We take it a step further on baby units. The mag locks are tied to the fire alarm but only release when water is flowing. Smoke or pull stations will not release the locks.

Now the State fire Marshall required the HVAC to go into smoke evac for returns and supply which put a significant vacuum on the building. Enough that you had to put your shoulder into the door to get them open. 

We also have done Emergency Room lock downs (100% read in read out) with delayed egress and fire alarm release. You can not force the public to have to go through a second delay to get outside without AHJ approval.

 

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Jun 07, 2017

Just thinking out loud here.

Why don't they just have an armed guard and an anti theft alarm at the front door???

Seems to me that having the door wide open with one employee on two floors is negligent.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Jun 07, 2017

I have been in many stores where they lock their employees in for the night and leave to open in am setting. 

always had a manager on site to open in case of emergency's , never gave it  a second thought. 

worked right along side of them . 

Most have Alarmed Panic Exit Push Bars for emergency's

 this is the proper way to do it. 

Alarm door , But allow exit in Emergency and Fire Alarm overide on Exit Doors ( only have to have one designated as emergency exit). 

Lots of High security applications where you had a area of refuge , not a exit out . 

Prisons are an example of this. 

Controlled Facility s are a example of this . 

High Security applications (Info Tech Security Facility's, Banks, Vaults, 

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Dwayne Cooney
Jun 07, 2017

The IBC and the NFPA allow locking devices where there are special security requirements and of course with AHJ approval. In almost all cases, the building must have fire detection or suppression systems to allow release of the doors during alarm.

Use the UL "FWAX" category on "Special Locking Arrangements" as a reference.
There is a list of manufacturers there that can possibly accommodate your needs.

http://productspec.ul.com/search.php?type=listing&listing=FWAX

 

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Robert Baxter
Jun 09, 2017

The diamond industry use a man trap to stop smash and grab. Exterior door allows entry into the man trap, buzz in thru interior door. Upon exit can enter man trap but needs to be buzzed out thru exterior door.

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Kevin White
Jun 12, 2017
IPVMU Certified

If high dollar items, how about a merchandise tag that is linked to the door locks. If tag is not removed - then the door locks. Even the "honest" customer would have to turn around and have the clerk remove the tag.

BUT FOLLOW CODE and AHJ - you do have to follow life safety for any configuration that is in path of egress.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Jun 12, 2017

Fire Code always take precedence 

AHJ Always makes that decision 

I have been doing this job 35 year , it has not changed. 

Just more codes, rules, better definitions, smarter AHJs and Smarter Techs 

 

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