With winter in the Northern Hemisphere now, I am wondering how many and what type of reports you are receiving of cameras breaking or malfunctioning.
So, any issues? Any patterns - form factor, installation type, model, etc.?
With winter in the Northern Hemisphere now, I am wondering how many and what type of reports you are receiving of cameras breaking or malfunctioning.
So, any issues? Any patterns - form factor, installation type, model, etc.?
Related, new report:
I have reports in the last couple of days regarding -40C/F rated cameras with lens focus freezing. It has been down to -18 F the last couple of nights (up to 10 during the day) - Maine. The cameras are rated to -40C/F. Is the standard rating with or without wind chill. it seems to me that wind will more quickly exchange heat from the metal enclosures of PTZ cameras (I have never seen one that was insulated), and I assume that manufacturers test this is a static non-wind environment. The cameras reported are ds-2df8223-AEL with Hi-POE 60 watt injectors.
The cameras are rated to -40C/F. Is the standard rating with or without wind chill. it seems to me that wind will more quickly exchange heat from the metal enclosures of PTZ cameras (I have never seen one that was insulated), and I assume that manufacturers test this is a static non-wind environment.
If they are rated to start at -40C/F without a pre-heating period, then wind chill should not be a factor, as wind chill doesn’t actually make an object’s temperature lower, rather it’s a perceptive measure of how quickly whatever heat an object generates is dissipated.
Having said that, some cameras do pre-heat the environment if necessary, like the Axis Artic models.
Wind chill involves the perceived temperature on human skin, and is related to how fast heat would be conducted away from skin at that temperature and wind speed. Without human skin involved, wind chill has no context.
Without human skin involved, wind chill has no context.
Even without skin in the game, heat loss from an object that produces heat is accelerated by wind due to increased convection.
Which are the same physics involved in wind chill.
While that is true (I am indeed a physicist by education), what is commonly referred to as "wind chill" is very specifically related to the human skin-air interface.
While the same principle is at work with a dielectric (e.g, camera dome) and moving cold air, it would be significantly more muted.
While the same principle is at work with a dielectric (e.g, camera dome) and moving cold air, it would be significantly more muted.
While that is true, many PTZ’s are constructed using significant aluminum and steel, which are excellent thermal conductors, in their housing.
I would imagine the λ of any such material to be far greater than that of human skin.
Also, since cameras need to be designed with heat dissipation to their surroundings in mind, I’d imagine the convective heat transfer is not thru the acrylic of the dome primarily.
IANAP
There are small echos of residual academic interest in me right now, as find myself thinking of solving heat transfer for a hypothetical PTZ dome with a -40C air temperature in a 20 kph sustained lateral wind.....
Thankfully, upon graduation from college, I stumbled upon an access control install going very wrong, that needed a young scapegoat that could possibly fix some things.
I said "I'm you're man!", and was saved from a lifetime of laboratory work. 😜
There are small echos of residual academic interest in me right now, as find myself thinking of solving heat transfer for a hypothetical PTZ dome with a -40C air temperature in a 20 kph sustained lateral wind.....
Kudos to you, since certainly I could never “solve” any such problem myself, in the theoretical sense at least.
What I could do (maybe!) is setup a little experiment in my basement coffin style freezer. Maybe my Dahua PTZ, a powerful fan, my FLIR handheld and some dry ice could make a first approximation, if my wife doesn’t kill me first :)
We have experienced this for years. It is not so much the camera that gives us problems as it is the lens. Like most "systems", you have to account for all parts of the system. The camera operating temp may or may not be the most limiting factor. More often than not, the lens is. Lenses open up at night, they freeze, and early the next morning the sun comes up and they are still wide open from the night before. Around 10am the sun hits the housing and the shutter can operate. Heaters, more than blowers, are still important. Good luck to you.
We've seen a few poorly sealed/installed cameras where the warmer air inside the facility is getting inside the dome and causing frost buildup, overwhelming the capacity for the camera to heat it off. No lens freezes yet, but we're not quote as cold as the Maine example above. Our coldest night so far has been the single digit negatives. We're in Michigan.
I have had doubts and concerns regarding the IR PTZ camera design regarding cold weather operation. With a dome bubble (non-IR design), you have a form of storm door over your camera mechanics. In Maine, we have mudrooms (non-insulated, non-heated) which are normally midway in temperature between the outdoors and the indoors. I would bet that melting snow and ice on the IR PTZ can also drip down into the PT mechanisms. Wind movement will only increase convection of the cameras heat to the outdoors.
I have not heard of any problems with the -40C dome bubble PTZ design. I have seen some of the -4F domes (you know, the ones put in when the spec does not say -40) go offline. I have few of these, but most of the ones I have specified are -40. I lose many bid specs to other integrators that use the value type domes (-4 F at best) on specs that do not call for cold weather design. Roll the dice during the warranty period I would bet. I live near Portland, ME where the temperature every night for the last 2 weeks has been 0 to -20 F.
Does anyone know what the specifics are of the -40 C/F rating. Maybe this means that the camera will continue to operate (but mechanics will not on PTZ designs).
Does anyone know what the specifics are of the -40 C/F rating. Maybe this means that the camera will continue to operate (but mechanics will not on PTZ designs).
If you are talking about cameras which are already on and working, that stop when it gets too cold (as opposed to starting up when cold), maybe a couple of scheduled guard tours throughout the night would keep everybody warm and limber, just like real guards ;)
Had a dealer in Maine switch to a very low cost line of "exterior grade" dome cameras years ago to save money. After about 50 winter service calls for auto iris lock ups, he admitted that he had to pay closer attention to deploying IP cameras in cold climates. Not all exterior grade cameras function well in extremely low temperatures.
A related topic is the newer breed of IP video intercom door stations, which often don't have the luxury of being located under overhangs. We advise our dealers to always install a back box with a heater and thermostat for all exterior stations, and to run an extra 2/18 cable along with the CAT-X, as the heaters are not generally PoE powered. We have just started to experiment with a hardened PoE splitter to solve the extra conductor issue.
Another related topic is the rising trend to add audio paging to exterior cameras. Although most paging horns can tolerate cold temperatures, we advise running low level background music through them if they are being installed in very cold environments. This is an old trick from the A/V industry, long used when installing speakers in food freezers, lockers, etc.
Can you provide more information about the heater and thermostat you're using in that exterior back box?
John, it's winter in the NORTHERN hemisphere, not the Western hemisphere per se (ie., Argentina is in the Western hemisphere, but it's summer there) 😜
Scott
The surface back box with heater & thermostat is made by TOA Electronics, for their line of IP video door intercom stations. Model number is YS-831H-AM.
Disclosure: I work for FLIR
While it is absolutely necessary to test and validate in temperature chambers in a lab, it is equally important to test in a real world environment. Here are a couple pictures I took this morning of one of the FLIR test towers in Montana.
Yes buy is it a "dry cold"? Sorry... a little humor!
When dealing with outdoor cold environments, I try avoid domes or non-sealed cameras. If units aren't sealed perfectly, they are prone to accumulate moisture and fog up. We used to try spec cameras that were good to -40, which we will see now and then during the winter. Not too many cameras are rated down to that temp. Now, we pretty much install anything, and don't worry about heaters. I can't even remember the the last time a camera failed in the bitter cold.
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