Subscriber Discussion

Camera Not Meeting Specifications, Any Manufacturer Responsibility?

JH
Jay Hobdy
Aug 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

 I do not want to give names yet but here is the overview. We got a license plate camera on demo, and it appeared to work fine with Milestone. Over the last 4 months we have purchased several of them. It took us a couple months and several sites to see different scenarios where we would have to make certain adjustments to the cameras. Plus there was a learning curve with Milestone.

 

So the two major issues are:

 

The camera has a JPEG Codec and offers 1-30 FPS. Milestone wants 4 FPS and we select 4 FPS. A few days later the camera goes back to 30 FPS. You can see the lag in Milestone as it is trying to analyze 30 FPS.

The manufacturer said "Sorry, we do not support JPEG so it is what it is"

 

The camera shows a manual shutter speed but after some digging, the same rep told me there is no way to adjust the shutter speed, even though there is a radio button and slider (grayed out).

 

So no shutter speed control on an LPR camera. (there is an night time exposure option of -10 to + 10)

 

Do I have a legitimate claim back to the distributor and manufacturer for a refund (ultimately I think the manufacturer should refund the distributor)? Granted it took us a couple months to realize this but this is almost like false advertising. The feature sets seem to be there but when we need it, it doesn't work.

 

 

Avatar
Brian Karas
Aug 22, 2017
IPVM

The JPEG support is a little weird, if they do not support it, why is it in the config?

Did the spec sheet, manual, etc. tell you that you could adjust the shutter speed, or did you just assume this? (not that it would be an unexpected assumption).

I think you probably have a legit claim back to the manufacturer, but I think you need to make sure your expectations came from the manufacturers spec sheets, claims, etc., and not from your own assumptions about how an LPR camera should work.

This sounds like a situation where the manufacturer is not the actual manufacturer, but an OEM of some other product, and they did not take the time to fully understand what they were OEMing and offering.

JH
Jay Hobdy
Aug 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

What manual? LOL No there was nothing that specifically claimed it, but shutter speed control on a camera that is advertised as an LPR camera seems pretty essential.

 

I think the JPEG issue by itself warrants a claim. 

 

So you buy a car with a radio, and after buying it, you realize the channels randomly change. Ford says " We don't support the radio. Just because you saw a channel selector doesn't mean we support it".

 

 

Avatar
Brian Karas
Aug 22, 2017
IPVM

So you buy a car with a radio, and after buying it, you realize the channels randomly change. Ford says " We don't support the radio. Just because you saw a channel selector doesn't mean we support it".

In another forum I read, someone was complaining about a car that had (in their opinion) a useless entertainment system (it would hang up when playing back MP3s, and had some other annoying quirks). The car manufacturer is pushing back on their desire for a refund, stating the entertainment system is not a core part of what makes it a vehicle, even though for this customer it is a very important function.

I am not saying your position is not justified, but I think you may face some pushback that would be easier to counter if you had something from spec sheets showing that your expectations were set by the manufacturer in some way.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Aug 22, 2017

I'll toss in a little information here that MIGHT be relevant.

Most VMS products control the camera and update it.  If you are adjusting the camera outside of Milestone it's possible Milestone is returning the camera to the frame rate it is set for.  Is there more than one software talking to the camera?  ONVIF or specific camera driver?

As for the other controls, I think Brian has the right idea.  Get the published spec sheet and installation manual.

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Avatar
Josh Hendricks
Aug 22, 2017
Milestone Systems

I think I know which camera this is Jay, and I just checked the spec sheet. MJPEG is listed as supported twice, once under "Features" and again under "Video Specifications/Compression".

It is also stated that it supports up to 1080p @ 30fps, but does not break down the supported frame rate ranges per codec or resolution, so there might be limitations on a per-codec/resolution basis which aren't specced out on the document I foudn.

Depending on how long the vehicles are in frame, you might be able to use H.264. It is typically recommended to use MJPEG because using H.264 I believe only the keyframes are analyzed which is roughly 1 image per second. So you may or may not have a usable image if the plate on the vehicle is only legible for 1-2 seconds.

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Aug 23, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Thanks Joshua.

 

I did check the specs and it does say "Supports H.265, H.264, and MJPEG codecs" on the web site and it also is listed on the pdf spec sheet.

 

Is there any validity to the claim that Milestone may be changing the FPS back to 30? I do not see this likely as I can tell from play back when the FPS changes, and sometimes the cameras go a week before they go back to 30FPS. If Milestone was changing it, I would assume it would be within a few seconds.

 

 

Being honest we did not know Milestone wanted 4 FPS in MJPEG and we started off using 264. We were missing tags and could not figure out why. Then we read the instructions.... DOH!  When we went to MJPEG and 4 to 5 FPS (Uniview does 1/3/5 FPS in MJPEG) our capture improved greatly. One idea I had was to use 264 at 4 to 5 FPS and change the key frame interval to 1 frame. Not sure if that is possible. Or setting the FPS/and interval so that there are 4 to 5 key frames per second.

 

 

Avatar
Josh Hendricks
Aug 23, 2017
Milestone Systems

Are you setting the live frame rate in the Management Client or in the camera?

If you set it in the camera, it can affect the stream we receive, but we will request the stream based on our own configuration the next time the service starts or the stream restarts.

Otherwise it's not terribly uncommon for a camera to experience an issue and reboot and/or revert to default settings. Some cameras have onboard logging available which could be helpful to see what's happening. If you can correlate an FPS change to our RecordingServer logs and there is a "camera failed to provide an image" message or similar, then it might be we are restarting the stream and getting the higher frame rate as a result.

With the original Processional VMS codebase, it is not possible to manipulate the keyframe interval. In my experience you can manually change it in the camera and it will remain for a while but eventually be reverted to 1 per second. The Express+ version does support custom GOP length though.

Some cameras/drivers support an "http snapshot" style of streaming which you would find in the stream properties window in Management Client if supported on that driver. It's a bit dated, but if available it wouldn't really matter how the camera is configured because we would just ask for an image, wait 1/4 of a second and ask again. This is not very common though.

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U
Undisclosed #3
Aug 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

With the original Processional VMS codebase...

Developed for your religious vertical? ;)

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JH
John Honovich
Aug 23, 2017
IPVM

The manufacturer said "Sorry, we do not support JPEG so it is what it is"

If they advertise / list JPEG on the specification sheet, than they need to support it or give you are refund. Happy to help if possible. Let us know.

JH
Jay Hobdy
Aug 23, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Thanks John, I did send an email to my distributor, manufacturer sales manager, and regional rep. They are looking into it.

 

I will let you know how it unfolds.

UE
Undisclosed End User #2
Aug 23, 2017

A few notes about analytics and why they prefer MJPEG.  While H.264/265 is awesome with compression for storage and bandwidth savings its a huge resource hog on the VMS to decode and analyze video.  Most VMS platforms and Analytics Serves prefer to preform analytics analysis using MJPEG at lower frame rates to conserve CPU resources, it takes les CPU to decode the MJPEG Stream and then throw it away while writing the H.264 to disk for playback.

While some do it better than others we see the trend of offloading resources to the edge to free up more VMS/Analytics CPU processing power, things like motion on the edge, analytics embedded into camera/edge devices etc.

With regards to your other issues of the camera settings changing see if the knock off camera (sorry it sounds like that what it is you selected) has the ability to capture/create log files so you can try and get help reviewing them.  Wait it does not sound like you will get anywhere w/log review since the camera does not have the advertised features as stated so I suspect the support will be the same.  Do the same for Milestone, have the logs reviewed for the server/camera that is in question, the logs will tell you the stream profile and when it was changed. The VMS sends the profile and the cameras then send those parameters back.  That is assuming you are using a cameras that has a driver in Milestone, they don't do well with generic RTSP streaming.  If you are using a generic RTSP stream that is likely the problem but log will tell for sure.  Even ONVIF has its challenges with IP cameras that claim to be compliant and really are not even close.

One final note, I spent almost the last ten years doing analytics for a manufacturer, you need to make sure you don't cut corners on the video source that will feed the analytic engine because the analysis is only as good as the source its analyzing .  That being said LPR is even more demanding of a purpose built device, don't try and take the "best in class" (aka cheaper) device to capture plates and then complain when it does not work right.  The money you saved in the long run you will eat trying to make it right for the customer.  Great example is end user complains they can only see the plate and not the vehicle or the entire scene of the area of interest, well this is an LPR application right?  Goal is to capture plates so the LPR analytic can index, search and alert.  If you need the scene overview then install a camera that is purpose built for those conditions along side the LPR camera.

If LPR or analytics are not your forte` then punt when asked or at least make sure you consult with the analytic manufacturer and LISTEN to what the share with you, their knowledge is specific to their product and how to make it work.  I would be that if you likely told them you were using a non-purpose built camera they probably told you something like "don't call me when it does not work".

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JH
John Honovich
Aug 26, 2017
IPVM

Note: I changed the title from 'expectation' to 'specifications' since I believe that better reflects the issue at hand. An 'expectation' is broader and less exact than a 'specification' which is what this is about.

JH
Jay Hobdy
Aug 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

As an update the manufacturer is looking into the FPS issue, and is supposedly discussing this with Milestone. They are also looking into the manual shutter speed issue.

It took 3 days and a follow up email from to get a status, but I am hoping the line of communication will be better moving forward. Instead of going through a sales manager, I hope to get to a product manager or engineer soon.

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