Subscriber Discussion

Biting The Hikvision Bullet

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 28, 2016

After quoting a few smaller systems and loosing with Arecont, Axis and Hanwha. I have decided to bite the bullet and start offering Hikvision. It is extremely difficult to compete.

(2)
(1)
(1)
JH
John Honovich
Dec 28, 2016
IPVM

Related: Is It Time For Me To Start Selling Hikvision?

#1, I am curious, how far off were you with Hanwha's pricing vs Hikvision?

Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Dec 28, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

It's strange that my evolution was the opposite. I started with substandard no name Chinese junk and quickly found Dahua OEM, which has its issues itself. Graduating to Hikvision branded has been a step up if anything. We have used some Axis and Samsung as needed, but have found Hikvision to be just as good for 99% of instances. 

(4)
(2)
(1)
Avatar
Joseph Parker
Dec 28, 2016

Couldn't agree more.  I use Axis almost exclusively for niche/spec jobs anymore.  Besides, Hik works so well with Spectrum!

(3)
(1)
JH
John Huntley
Dec 28, 2016

Hikvision's selling point is always low cost. I have Hikvision in a few locations. They integrate well with Digital-Watchdog Black-Jack Cubes. Hikvision NVR's are not user-friendly at all an have a bit of a learning curve.

Presently, I have a few dozen installed at different locations, and the pictures are good and the cameras seem reliable and sturdy.

In the mid to lower end level cameras be sure to uncheck the "Enable" box under the "Platform Access" tab in advanced network configuration. Leaving this check seems to make the camera "phone home" to the EZVIZ Cloud and can alarm IT Network Administrators!

(2)
(7)
JH
John Honovich
Dec 28, 2016
IPVM

Leaving this check seems to make the camera "phone home" to the EZVIZ Cloud and can alarm IT Network Administrators!

John, thanks for the feedback. Related: Hikvision 'Phone Home' Raises Security Fears

MM
Michael Miller
Dec 28, 2016

We are doing the opposite since the Chinese Government ownership has come to light and no with the mobile access issues (just got our first support call about mobile app).   

(3)
(2)
U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 28, 2016

Exactly this. 

Hard to believe anyone can be making the conscious decision to move towards Hikvision at this point, but to each their own I suppose.

(4)
(1)
(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 28, 2016

When everyone else is selling it and I can not make a sale because everything else costs 2-3 times more. I guess I can go on welfare and blame the Chinese.

(1)
(2)
(1)
(1)
MM
Michael Miller
Dec 28, 2016

We have flipped a number of projects from Hikvision to Avigilon by simply demoing the solutions and explaining the security issues.  Now this doesn't always work but I can sleep at night knowing we are doing the right thing. 

(3)
(2)
(4)
Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Dec 28, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

I agree with Michael here that if I could find clients that could afford Avigilon end to end, I would be selling that all day. 

(3)
(1)
U
Undisclosed #3
Dec 28, 2016

Start to sell HIK with Avigilon

hard to beat combo

(5)
MM
Michael Miller
Dec 28, 2016

I learned a couple of years ago to never spend your customers money.  Spend time educating customers and you will be very surprised what will happen. 

(2)
(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #8
Jan 03, 2017

On your SMB clients (20 cameras and under), did you switch to a HIK OEM or to Dahua? 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Jan 02, 2017

or hire better sales people?

(2)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Dec 28, 2016

I do not have an issue with the phone home aspect when the camera is on a Exacq M Series or Una. Corp environments I am able to push quality equipment.

U
Undisclosed #4
Dec 28, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Bite the bullet, just don't bite too hard...

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Jan 02, 2017

The thing is, how is one positioning his company? high end is high end, regardless of the size of the customer or the system. Why would a 4-camera system automatically be assumed to be "cheap"? I have put top quality equipment and installations into very small customers who saw the value.

isnt the same "cheap" customer going to wind up comparing your higher labor rate as well? you will have to cut that next in order to "compete".

The problem is higher-end integrators chasing lower-end customers and trying to compete with low-end trunk slammers. That's a race to the bottom that only the trunk-slammer can win. When a legitimate company goes down this rabbit hole, it has already lost.What's next, giving the cameras away for free?

Find better customers 

(3)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Jan 02, 2017

Hi

 

I am relatively new to the industry. I have seen the so called High Ed and I was impressed, Axis, Avigilon,etc.. Great picture then I have a taste of Hikvision Value or whatever their low end is called .. Shock, awe, they're as good or better than Axis under most conditions... Graduated to Hik higher end the Smart Series... more shock and more awe all that for the price of the middle products from the High End so what's give?

I can understand this forum being US-based has its misgivings about the company Chinese Gov ownership. The hard reality is that the competing products are not American made for the most part.. Axis was from one a Scandinavian countries now it is owned by a Japanese corporation, THe biggies when it comes to VMS are not all US either ... So how do you spell Globalization? It is upon us and however much we may want to dance to a different tune what happens in Moscow or Peking affects NYC or Paris or Tokyo. In the meantime Hik allows us to offer great products at a reasonable price to my customers . We try as much as possible through education to make the money on services. The days of $1000 720p cameras are over unless you're Cisco and believe the World is flat... Hik is there to stay, we better align ourselves to this fact.

(3)
(1)
MM
Michael Miller
Jan 02, 2017

I can understand this forum being US-based has its misgivings about the company Chinese Gov ownership. The hard reality is that the competing products are not American made for the most part..

Huge difference between manufactured in China and OWNED by the government. Would you purchase cameras/NVRs that were owned by US, Russia, Iran, or Israeli governments?  If no why not? 

(1)
U
Undisclosed #4
Jan 03, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Huge difference between manufactured in China and OWNED by the government.

Huge difference between manufactured in the U.S. and OWNED by the U.S. government.

Far less difference between manufactured in China and OWNED by the Chinese government:

The impact of corporate ownership is considered to be particularly acute when a contrast is drawn between privately owned enterprises (POEs) and state-owned enterprises (SOEs). Particularly, in the Chinese context, analysts have devoted considerable attention to SOEs as the “primary vehicles for Chinese state capitalism.”[1] This attention is deserved, but incomplete. We argue in this Chapter that drawing a stark distinction among Chinese firms based on ownership of enterprise (SOEs versus POEs) to frame Chinese state capitalism misperceives the reality of that country’s institutional environment and its impact on the formation and operation of large enterprises of all types. Functionally, SOEs and large POEs in China share many similarities in the areas commonly thought to distinguish state-owned firms from privately owned firms: market access, receipt of state subsidies, proximity to state power, and execution of the government’s policy objectives. Beyond Ownership

JH
John Honovich
Jan 02, 2017
IPVM

Axis, Avigilon,etc.. Great picture then I have a taste of Hikvision Value or whatever their low end is called .. Shock, awe, they're as good or better than Axis under most conditions

Roughly speaking, they all use the same imagers, etc. so yes that is the general outcome. Related: The Siliconization of Surveillance Cameras.

Hik is there to stay, we better align ourselves to this fact.

Even more broadly, China manufacturers are here to stay. What I still am skeptical about is, long term, Hikvision's capability to sell at the price they do while offering the local sales, marketing and support they do, which is very expensive.

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Jan 02, 2017

Ever think about how hikvision, etc are able to sell gear at one third the price of so-called "high end western brands"?

Chinese state-owned tech companies have been reverse-engineering ( stealing) the R&D of said western companies for years, packaging it in to hardware assembled by peasant workers and then "dumped" into global markets at way below market rate in order to gain market share. Whether or not we choose to enable this behavior is up to us, and of course, our government which generally to date has looked the other way. People who call this "competition" dont really have a concept of how intellectual property, international trade and capitalism are supposed to work. 

Even with western companies doing their manufacturing in china or mexico, they still will not be able to compete, because it is apples and oranges. 

How does this affect security integrators? Easy - we exist to solve our customers' increasingly complex security problems. So if western camera manufacturing companies decide its no longer worth innovating and designing software and lenses and analytics that we can use as tools to privide those solutions, and the conglomerates that own most of them decide to exit the market, then what good are we? What tools will we use? Or will we be happy screwing 89 dollar hikvision bullet cameras to the wall at cut rate ? Allowing hikvision to attain a monopoly standing is putting an awful lot of faith in hikvision's abilities to innovate in the future, no?  

(2)
Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Jan 03, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

There are plenty of people here that won't even consider selling Chinese made/own products. There will be a market for "Western" brands, even if it's a smaller, niche one. I could see someone like Avigilon taking advantage of this niche and doing quite well there. I can't see the western companies that were bought by Asian mega corps being as competitive. They will get lumped in with the Hikvision, Dahua, and Uniview group soon enough. 

And for this complaining about Hikvision's pricing, have you seen Dahua and Uniview pricing? It is far lower than Hikvision pricing. And, to my knowledge, they aren't subsidized by the Chinese gov, like Hikvision is. How can they afford to compete?

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Jan 03, 2017

I believe Dahua is a chinese company as well. China, we must remember, is a communist centrally planned economy. All "companies" there operate at the pleasure of the government and are subject to its arbitrary requirements, which can and do change without any legitimate due process. 

as far as the higher end western based manufacturers, most are now owned by larger conglomerates, such as Canon, United Technologies and Tyco and they very well may not want to be mere "niche" products and could exit if profitability and market share continue to erode. None of this is good for our industry, which relies on innovation and credibility. If people really believe that upon achieving critical mass and a monopoly position that chinese companies will devote the same level of innovation and competence natively without riding Axis, Avigilon, etc coattails, more power to them. I dont. 

Avatar
Sean Nelson
Jan 03, 2017
Nelly's Security

You rarely see integrators use Hikvision for a period of time and then dump them.

However, you frequently see people like you, who are somewhat reluctant to try Hikvision, then they try it and are pleasantly surprised. You will win more bids and your business will increase. Go for it!

(1)
(2)
(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Jan 03, 2017
The term "Integrator" can be misleading. Actually in the security industry there are two distinctly separate business models - The alarm/security dealer model, which relies on RMR and as such utilizes the lowest cost endpoints possible and tends to serve the residential and very small business market ( gas stations, doctors offices, etc). And then there is the Security integration model, which incorporates door access control, surveillance, analytics, cyber security, network security into often mid-sized to extremely large and in some cases global networks. Such clients are more interested in overall system performance, reliability and credibility, and sales are rarely won or lost based on how cheap the cameras are.
(2)
(1)
JH
John Honovich
Jan 03, 2017
IPVM

#5, I agree with you that 'mid-sized to extremely large and in some cases global networks' rarely choose based on low cost.

But many 'real' integrators who do not rely on RMR but sell projects to SMBs are winning with Hikvision. For example, Hikvision cameras were top on our 2015 SMB Favorites and I am sure they are doing even stronger there now.

(1)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Jan 03, 2017

I would agree, there is no denying that the small business sector is, always has been, and always will be price-sensitive and unless Axis, Milestone, etc develop a second-tier "SMB" product line that matches the performance/price point they will wind up entirely surrendering it to the Hikvisions and dahuas. 

 

Prior to entering the security business, I was, and still am to an extent in the telecom/PBX business (Avaya/Cisco), and it amazes me as to how similar the two industries are. In the mid-sized to larger companies, they did not even entertain smaller low-cost phone system manufacturers such as NEC or Toshiba. So most of our sales focused around the overall solution and how it would be supported. Yet in the small business market, we would have to fight to sell the client the "better" product, at higher cost of course. Eventually we were priced out and it became a waste of time to even take a sales appointment if the prospect was also looking at NEC, which was pound for pound an inferior product, but - it was good enough and 25 percent cheaper and that's what sealed it for the typical small business owner, who simply had no need for the advanced capabilities of the platform we offered. 

The problem of course is that eventually this split ends up hurting the "higher end" manufacturer far more than the lower end, as the higher end needs to invest far more into R&D and support to continue to build or justify value and meet the stringent demands of larger enterprises. This bankrupted or forced the sale of almost all of those big telephone manufacturers, and I see the same trajectory for the big security players as the "lower end" creeps further and further up the ladder and erodes the profits the high end needs to reinvest. whether or not that is something to celebrate depends on one's point of view I suppose. 

(1)
Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Jan 03, 2017
Pro Focus LLC

"The bamboo that bends is stronger than the oak that resists."

(1)
U
Undisclosed #4
Jan 07, 2017
IPVMU Certified

"The bamboo that bends is stronger than the oak that resists."

This explains why Chinesium is stronger than steel.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Jan 03, 2017

One always has the choice to be the master of his own destiny, or to simply surrender to chance and spend all his time reacting rather than planning. I would always choose the former when it comes to business. 

New discussion

Ask questions and get answers to your physical security questions from IPVM team members and fellow subscribers.

Newest discussions